3478 réponses à ce sujet

[mosor]

Drodjan wrote...

mosor wrote...
Yes but none of that is terrorism. The goal of terrorism is to intentionally and publically terrorize. By your defintion,  almost any criminal gang would be labelled terrorist. I'm not saying cerberus are saints, but they arn't terrorists either. Now the batarians who tried to destroy terra nova, the franklin colony and release a deadly virus on the citadel meet that defintion.

Terrorism is the persistent use of mass violence and intimidation to achieve a goal, usually political, religious or both. Cerberus might be different than conventional terrorists like the batarians, but they fit the bill; they have no qualms about massacring or torturing soldiers and civilians to further their political goal of human dominance. 

As I said, there is no evidence of them using mass violence and intimidation. Killing or experimenting on people in secret isn't terrorism. For it to be called terrorism, they'd have to do it publically with the goal of spreading fear to achieve political ends.  They haven't done anything that America hasn't done to their own soldiers and populations in the past. If you want to be really harsh and judgemental of cerberus, the worst you can accuse them of is running sick and amoral experiments.

Modifié par mosor, 18 août 2010 - 03:12 .

[mosor]

Drodjan wrote...

Alright then, I can see what you mean as far as terrorism goes. They certainly do work in secret, or at least try to, which most terrorists do not. It's just semantics in the end, whatever their label is does not change the severity of their actions. We won't agree on the brevity of their crimes, though, it seems. Which if fine of course. I was just giving my opinion. We don't want to get any more off topic anyways. *points to thread title* 

Heh I know. I like debating it more so for debate's sake rather than any passionate position I may hold. It's a video game, not real life politics. No reason for me to get upset over anything as long as there isn't any personal attacks involved

As for their crimes. I do fully understand the horror involved and I probably agree with you on the severity of their crimes. What we disagree on is whether it's necessary or not. Do we have to take extreme measures to win against the reapers. Knowing that it's a video game, I know another option will present itself, but inserting myself in a situation where we face an enemy thats been constantly victorious for at least  tens of millions of years and wants to extinguish all advanced life? I'd probably play every hand dealt to me, even if that means dancing with the devil. Any problems after a reaper defeat can be sorted out without the extiction threat.

[lovgreno]

PWENER wrote...

Human Council+Keeping base= Human Dominance

Perhaps. It could also lead to collectors retaking the base and harvesting Earth as was their original plan = human extintion. As far Shepard knows it's still a threat as long as it's intact.

[mosor]

Drodjan wrote...

Many of Cerberus' crimes were unnecessary - nay, almost pointless. Like the thresher laws devouring a colony ... What is gained from that?it really seems like in the first game, Bioware was just trying to make Cerberus pointlessly evil. I don't think they'd planned on taking ME2 in that direction when they first made the game lol. But anyways, if you're talking about the base then I understand when you're coming from, though I respectfully disagree for my the reasons in my original post.

Yeah, we don't have much info on why cerberus did the threasher maw experiments. Only speculation. I'm just going to chalk it up to bad writing, In ME1, they probably never intended them to play a prominent role in the series. So they just kept them one demensional baddies, and didn't try to give us too much background on why they were bad. Just these are rogue human racists who  do horrible experiments, so go kill them. In ME2, they try to make them more like star trek's Section 31 and give them a more prominent role. However, all that one dementional stuff they put in ME1, they have trouble explaining, so they either gloss over it or ignore it entirely.

Modifié par mosor, 18 août 2010 - 03:36 .

[Dean_the_Young]

We don't even know that Cerberus caused the thresher maws to attack the colony itself: our first word of Cerberus is that they led the marines into a nest. If they could manipulate the maws to move elsewhere, they wouldn't need to do bring them there.

[Killjoy Cutter]

My Sheps destroy the base because Cerberus will do what Cerberus always does with old and dangerous things (and because of their philosophy, which TIM obligingly demonstrates as he's trying to berate Shepard for destroying the Collector base), because so much of the Reaper technology is inherently dehumanizing, and because of what happens whenever someone starts getting involved with Reapers, Reaper technology, Reaper anything. The team that went into the dead Reaper were Husked just by being on a dead Reaper.

[Eliud]

Well, I don't know if it has been said before, but I believe legion's Point of View that there are many ways to achieve tecnology. To not destroy the colector base would make humanity use the reaper tecnology and not achieve that tecnology on humanity's terms.

[Giggles_Manically]

Wasent Cerberus not originaly made to be the main force in ME2?

I thought the devs were going to use Geth, as the main force.

[Dean_the_Young]

Eliud wrote...

Well, I don't know if it has been said before, but I believe legion's Point of View that there are many ways to achieve tecnology. To not destroy the colector base would make humanity use the reaper tecnology and not achieve that tecnology on humanity's terms.

Well, minus the whole 'on your terms' point: whether you keep the base or destroy it, he pretty much says humanity can take the tech on it's own terms.

Legion's philosophy is also about thirty years (plus another two thousand) too late. The only reason the Geth and Galaxy are alive is because Humanity has been grabbing itself up by the bootstraps, each nation copying and improving the technology others develop, and then did the same with the Mars Cache. Without that unrepentent tech looting, there would have been no Shepard Commander to stop Saren and Sovereign.

And, after stopping those two, if no one had stolen and then utilized pieces of Sovereign into EDI, Shepard never would have gotten to a point to know the need for an IFF and have gone to the Reaper, thus saving Legion. And had the Turians not stolen the Thannix Cannon from Sovereign's corpse, quite possibly Legion  wouldn't have survived to tell you this philosophy.

Legion gets a nice 'I'll humor you on your beliefs' from me, and I say humor him because he wouldn't have the luxury of them if everyone else followed them.

[mosor]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Eliud wrote...

Well, I don't know if it has been said before, but I believe legion's Point of View that there are many ways to achieve tecnology. To not destroy the colector base would make humanity use the reaper tecnology and not achieve that tecnology on humanity's terms.

Well, minus the whole 'on your terms' point: whether you keep the base or destroy it, he pretty much says humanity can take the tech on it's own terms.

Legion's philosophy is also about thirty years (plus another two thousand) too late. The only reason the Geth and Galaxy are alive is because Humanity has been grabbing itself up by the bootstraps, each nation copying and improving the technology others develop, and then did the same with the Mars Cache. Without that unrepentent tech looting, there would have been no Shepard Commander to stop Saren and Sovereign.

And, after stopping those two, if no one had stolen and then utilized pieces of Sovereign into EDI, Shepard never would have gotten to a point to know the need for an IFF and have gone to the Reaper, thus saving Legion. And had the Turians not stolen the Thannix Cannon from Sovereign's corpse, quite possibly Legion  wouldn't have survived to tell you this philosophy.

Legion gets a nice 'I'll humor you on your beliefs' from me, and I say humor him because he wouldn't have the luxury of them if everyone else followed them.

Besides, sovereign wasn't offering the geth a superior laser,  some revolutionary engine or even a better toaster. They may have taken tech like that.  He was offering their ultimate asperation. The reaper version of the dyson sphere. It makes sense to achieve your ultimate goal on your own terms. That would be like the reapers offering their version of an immortal timeless existence to us, not some mundane every day tech.

Modifié par mosor, 19 août 2010 - 01:24 .

[Turkey Braveheart]

I didn't destroy it for a few reasons.

1. I can see why people wouldn't trust the illusive man, but with the Reaper threat coming, that seems like a minor concern.

2. We need their Reaper-like technology to fight the Reapers. Think about it, hundreds of comparable civilizations to the 2185 'verse have lost when confronted by the Reapers. Clearly our tech is not enough.

3. There's a dead Reaper in the base! Show it to the Council.

[pf17456]

Aside from the questionable motives/ethics of TIM/Cerebrus as reason enough to destroy the base the notion that we 'need' the collector base to save ourselves from the Reapers is irrational because of the information we've accumulated throughout the game that directly points to having developed along the path desired by the Reapers as a result of adopting and using Reaper technology. Saving the base is a continuation of Reaper desire and facilitates steps toward indoctrination. We are incapable of using that which is Reaper against Reaper especially when using the base is exactly what the Reapers want.

Chances are that the Asari Matriarch/ Bartender has more wisdom than she's been given credit for.

[Killjoy Cutter]

pf17456 wrote...

Aside from the questionable motives/ethics of TIM/Cerebrus as reason enough to destroy the base the notion that we 'need' the collector base to save ourselves from the Reapers is irrational because of the information we've accumulated throughout the game that directly points to having developed along the path desired by the Reapers as a result of adopting and using Reaper technology. Saving the base is a continuation of Reaper desire and facilitates steps toward indoctrination. We are incapable of using that which is Reaper against Reaper especially when using the base is exactly what the Reapers want.
Chances are that the Asari Matriarch/ Bartender has more wisdom than she's been given credit for.

Why do I get the feeling that I'm missing conversations with many of the NPCs I've talked to already.  When does the bartender / matriarch every say anything about the any of this?

[tonnactus]

Turkey Braveheart wrote...

2. We need their Reaper-like technology to fight the Reapers.

I think its not really wise to assume that organics understand the reaper tech better then the reapers theirself who had
millions of years to develop and improve it(and now the weaknesses of it/remove it).The thanix cannon didnt count.The collectors were just pawns and didnt had state of the art tech anyway.

[88mphSlayer]

Cerberus's obsession with weaponry might end up being the catalyst to their indoctrination anyways - it's cyclical in that we'll need bigger weapons to destroy the reapers, and keep upping ourselves until we're so consumed by the need to survive that we start building human reapers, i mean from a "renegade" POV what's the difference between sacrificing 1 million human lives to fight as individuals to destroy 10 reapers vs. sacrificing 1 million lives to build a human reaper that can destroy 20 reapers? that's when it really gets dangerous



that's why i created a pure renegade and pure paragon character, tho imo the renegade decisions are far more interesting than the paragon choices which imo come off as maybe predictable for what happens in the 3rd game?

[Haventh]

Pissing of TIM and blowing up things, it's double Christmas!

[Halo Quea]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

pf17456 wrote...

Aside from the questionable motives/ethics of TIM/Cerebrus as reason enough to destroy the base the notion that we 'need' the collector base to save ourselves from the Reapers is irrational because of the information we've accumulated throughout the game that directly points to having developed along the path desired by the Reapers as a result of adopting and using Reaper technology. Saving the base is a continuation of Reaper desire and facilitates steps toward indoctrination. We are incapable of using that which is Reaper against Reaper especially when using the base is exactly what the Reapers want.
Chances are that the Asari Matriarch/ Bartender has more wisdom than she's been given credit for.

Why do I get the feeling that I'm missing conversations with many of the NPCs I've talked to already.  When does the bartender / matriarch every say anything about the any of this?

Matriarch Aethyta (bartender) suggested that the Asari should build THEIR OWN mass relays.

It should be easy to remember considering it was one of her most colorful lines-

When I started talking about making new mass relays ourselves, they laughed the blue off my ****! So now, I serve drinks."

[tom.bleaker]

Eliud wrote...

Well, I don't know if it has been said before, but I believe legion's Point of View that there are many ways to achieve tecnology. To not destroy the colector base would make humanity use the reaper tecnology and not achieve that tecnology on humanity's terms.

Legion's POV is actually what convinced me to destroy the base.  Reapertech is always a double-edged sword. Using it makes us controllable and predictable. Sovreign says as much in the first game.

[smudboy]

tom.bleaker wrote...

Eliud wrote...

Well, I don't know if it has been said before, but I believe legion's Point of View that there are many ways to achieve tecnology. To not destroy the colector base would make humanity use the reaper tecnology and not achieve that tecnology on humanity's terms.

Legion's POV is actually what convinced me to destroy the base.  Reapertech is always a double-edged sword. Using it makes us controllable and predictable. Sovreign says as much in the first game.

Well say goodbye to EDI and Mr. Thanix.

[Fiery Phoenix]

smudboy wrote...

tom.bleaker wrote...

Eliud wrote...

Well, I don't know if it has been said before, but I believe legion's Point of View that there are many ways to achieve tecnology. To not destroy the colector base would make humanity use the reaper tecnology and not achieve that tecnology on humanity's terms.

Legion's POV is actually what convinced me to destroy the base.  Reapertech is always a double-edged sword. Using it makes us controllable and predictable. Sovreign says as much in the first game.

Well say goodbye to EDI and Mr. Thanix.

:lol:

[Turkey Braveheart]

tonnactus wrote...

Turkey Braveheart wrote...

2. We need their Reaper-like technology to fight the Reapers.

I think its not really wise to assume that organics understand the reaper tech better then the reapers theirself who had
millions of years to develop and improve it(and now the weaknesses of it/remove it).The thanix cannon didnt count.The collectors were just pawns and didnt had state of the art tech anyway.

We don't need to understand it better to benefit. It's been established that the Collectors, like the Reapers, are more advanced than the Citadel races. Until I see evidence to the contrary, I see Collector technology as a step up. We cannot know if we'll need it but it seems naive not to assume the worst and make the best of what has fallen into our laps.

[Darian4]

pf17456 wrote...

Aside from the questionable motives/ethics of TIM/Cerebrus as reason enough to destroy the base the notion that we 'need' the collector base to save ourselves from the Reapers is irrational because of the information we've accumulated throughout the game that directly points to having developed along the path desired by the Reapers as a result of adopting and using Reaper technology. Saving the base is a continuation of Reaper desire and facilitates steps toward indoctrination. We are incapable of using that which is Reaper against Reaper especially when using the base is exactly what the Reapers want.

 
I keep reading that and I don’t understand why so many people assume the trap that lies within the technologies the reapers carefully left being for us to find necessary extend to all the reaper technologies. Let say we are in a classical war and we find by chance an intelligence report. Then, one of our enemies tells us “this report is a trap”, will we stop using all the intelligence reports and stop spying on our enemy?
 Beside, isn’t it hypocritical to go to the base using the reaper technology (the mass relay), to destroy the base because it’s too dangerous to use the reaper technology, then to leave using the reaper technology?
 

tom.bleaker wrote...

Legion's POV is actually what convinced me to destroy the base.  Reapertech is always a double-edged sword. Using it makes us controllable and predictable. Sovreign says as much in the first game.

 
Indeed, Sovereign said so. But he also said the cycle cannot be broken. Either you believe him and you stop fighting or you think he can be proven wrong.
 

tonnactus wrote...

I think its not really wise to assume that organics understand the reaper tech better then the reapers […]

 

88mphSlayer  wrote...
 
Cerberus's obsession with weaponry might end up being the catalyst to their indoctrination anyways […]

 
You think, it might… we all agree it’s a risky long shot. But right now we have nothing else. Why between a risky long shot and the certainty of death so many people choose the later?
 
 Unless it’s some kind of metagaming. Since we know there will be another solution in ME3 there is no reason to rush on this one. It would make a lot more sense but I think it should be specified.
 
(sorry for my English , I’m french)

[pf17456]

Darian4 wrote...

 
I keep reading that and I don’t understand why so many people assume the trap that lies within the technologies the reapers carefully left being for us to find necessary extend to all the reaper technologies. Let say we are in a classical war and we find by chance an intelligence report. Then, one of our enemies tells us “this report is a trap”, will we stop using all the intelligence reports and stop spying on our enemy?
 Beside, isn’t it hypocritical to go to the base using the reaper technology (the mass relay), to destroy the base because it’s too dangerous to use the reaper technology, then to leave using the reaper technology?
 
(sorry for my English , I’m french)

The Protheans, Saren and his crew on Virmire, Cerebrus cells exploring Reaper tech and the various dig sites in ME1 are all evidence of the indoctrination that occurs as a result of being in contact with Reaper tech. It's not an assumption. Mordin when he describes the fall of the Protheans talks about how dependency on tech led to cultural stagnation and subsequent indoctrination. This is not an 'enemy report' saying Reaper tech is a trap, this comes from an ally who is supporting evidence we have already seen for ourselves and I think serously considered. Already we are on the road to indoctrination by using Reaper tech, perhaps more than we realize given the Council's reluctance to even acknowledge the existance of Reapers. I'm not sure you could call it hypocritical to use what we've already got since most of the tech was discovered long before anybody knew it was connected to a cycle of extinction but the point is that we can now make a pretty educated guess that it is and where we go from here will determine our fate.Keeping  the base I think is a big leap forward for the Reapers in their soup making quest.