3478 réponses à ce sujet

[mosor]

tom.bleaker wrote...

Eliud wrote...

Well, I don't know if it has been said before, but I believe legion's Point of View that there are many ways to achieve tecnology. To not destroy the colector base would make humanity use the reaper tecnology and not achieve that tecnology on humanity's terms.

Legion's POV is actually what convinced me to destroy the base.  Reapertech is always a double-edged sword. Using it makes us controllable and predictable. Sovreign says as much in the first game.

Should have brought Legion to the final battle and let him convince you to keep the base, since you value his opinion so much.

[mosor]

pf17456 wrote...

 


The Protheans, Saren and his crew on Virmire, Cerebrus cells exploring Reaper tech and the various dig sites in ME1 are all evidence of the indoctrination that occurs as a result of being in contact with Reaper tech. It's not an assumption. Mordin when he describes the fall of the Protheans talks about how dependency on tech led to cultural stagnation and subsequent indoctrination. This is not an 'enemy report' saying Reaper tech is a trap, this comes from an ally who is supporting evidence we have already seen for ourselves and I think serously considered. Already we are on the road to indoctrination by using Reaper tech, perhaps more than we realize given the Council's reluctance to even acknowledge the existance of Reapers. I'm not sure you could call it hypocritical to use what we've already got since most of the tech was discovered long before anybody knew it was connected to a cycle of extinction but the point is that we can now make a pretty educated guess that it is and where we go from here will determine our fate.Keeping  the base I think is a big leap forward for the Reapers in their soup making quest.

That's not entirely accurate.

1. The tech that indoctrinates, are tech the reapers left behind in the hopes of us finding it. The Base wasn't intended to be acquired

2. Mordin doesn't know much about the protheans. He was judging the collectors mechanical upgrades that made them shells for the reapers.

3. You got the whole being on the road the reapers intended for us argument backwards. The discovery of the martian cache and the mass relays, ensured that we're already on the road the reapers intended. There is a reason the reapers strike when they do. If they leave a species on their own much longer, they get too powerful to defeat. Since the reapers planned our road already, we might as well go further than they intended and give them a suprise.

Modifié par mosor, 20 août 2010 - 01:55 .

[pf17456]

[quote]mosor wrote...

[/quote]

That's not entirely accurate.

1. The tech that indoctrinates, are tech the reapers left behind in the hopes of us finding it. The Base wasn't intended to be acquired

2. Mordin doesn't know much about the protheans. He was judging the collectors mechanical upgrades that made them shells for the reapers.

3. You got the whole being on the road the reapers intended for us argument backwards. The discovery of the martian cache and the mass relays, ensured that we're already on the road the reapers intended. There is a reason the reapers strike when they do. If they leave a species on their own much longer, they get too powerful to defeat. Since the reapers planned our road already, we might as well go further than they intended and give them a suprise.

[/quote]

1. Regardless of the Reapers intent relating to the Base it still has as does all Reaper tech the capacity to indoctrinate, they have an innate fallback position with their tech. TIM/ Cerebrus gaining posession of the Base only means a speedy path to becoming a slushy or some f 'd up bug thing. You are assuming intent

2. Mordin may not know about the Protheans but he does describe well the results of dependency and how that becomes apathy and stagnation eg becoming husks

3. I think the road is a two way street with you going one way, thinking the base means glactic salvation from the Reapers assuming that it's acquisition makes us as powerful as the Reapers which to me seems a little grandiose. I'm going in the oppposite direction thinking the Base is little more than a trap leading to indoctrination allowing a Reaper victory. Once you realize you've been suckered in to something you are left with a choice; either to continue being sucked in or saying enough is enough. I've chosen the latter by exploding the Base.

We cannot both be right but we can both be wrong in our assessment. Guess we'll see what happens next year or the year after.

[gi0m]

I don't get that "Cerberus full evil"thing.
In Me1, you could clearly see that Cerberus wasn't developped, the devs only made it stupidly evil with no point whatsoever justifying their actions. Just like in every series, characters evolve from the pilot.
And really, by reading TIM messages, by the way he talks etc, he's really not that dangerous. Just an arse.

Destroying the Collector base is a good thing to do, if we weren't in that situation. Like said Legion, you have to evolve your way blablabla.
But the thing is, reapers are ****ing coming guys. This is not about ethics or getting methaphysical about the future of mankind, who are we, where are we going. No.
It's a fricking emergency state. The galaxy is about to be doomed if we don't do anything. We absolutely have to bring all the chances we can on our side. And destroying the collector base is simply destroying one of the most influencal chance we have against the reapers. Think about the combat capacity of such a ship. it's a weapon of mass destruction. And we need this against an army of giant octopuses.

If after the reapers problem is solved and cerberus is going crazy with the collector base, really, I don't think that's gonna be a problem for Shepard to deal with. The guy just saved the galaxy from a certain apocalypse that is immuable for millions of years, it's clearly not one ship ruled by a crazy guy that'll be a big deal. He'll just get into with 2 squadmates and kill everyone, just like he does everytime.

That said, I don't really see why the hell they don't just destroy the citadel already...

Modifié par gi0m, 20 août 2010 - 02:19 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Halo Quea wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

pf17456 wrote...

Aside from the questionable motives/ethics of TIM/Cerebrus as reason enough to destroy the base the notion that we 'need' the collector base to save ourselves from the Reapers is irrational because of the information we've accumulated throughout the game that directly points to having developed along the path desired by the Reapers as a result of adopting and using Reaper technology. Saving the base is a continuation of Reaper desire and facilitates steps toward indoctrination. We are incapable of using that which is Reaper against Reaper especially when using the base is exactly what the Reapers want.
Chances are that the Asari Matriarch/ Bartender has more wisdom than she's been given credit for.

Why do I get the feeling that I'm missing conversations with many of the NPCs I've talked to already.  When does the bartender / matriarch every say anything about the any of this?

Matriarch Aethyta (bartender) suggested that the Asari should build THEIR OWN mass relays.

It should be easy to remember considering it was one of her most colorful lines-

When I started talking about making new mass relays ourselves, they laughed the blue off my ****! So now, I serve drinks."

I'll have to go talk to her again and find the conversation chain that leads to that comment.

[Kosmiker]

I enjoyed destroying collectors base because... because... wait a minute, why did I? Darn..

[pf17456]

gi0m wrote...


But the thing is, reapers are ****ing coming guys. This is not about ethics or getting methaphysical about the future of mankind, who are we, where are we going. No.
It's a fricking emergency state. The galaxy is about to be doomed if we don't do anything. We absolutely have to bring all the chances we can on our side. And destroying the collector base is simply destroying one of the most influencal chance we have against the reapers. Think about the combat capacity of such a ship. it's a weapon of mass destruction. And we need this against an army of giant octopuses.

If after the reapers problem is solved and cerberus is going crazy with the collector base, really, I don't think that's gonna be a problem for Shepard to deal with. The guy just saved the galaxy from a certain apocalypse that is immuable for millions of years, it's clearly not one ship ruled by a crazy guy that'll be a big deal. He'll just get into with 2 squadmates and kill everyone, just like he does everytime.

That said, I don't really see why the hell they don't just destroy the citadel already...

So what is it exactly you think the Reaper base has that we so desperately need ?  What makes the Collector base one of the most " influental" chances we have against the Reapers ?  How is the Base a weapon of mass destruction ?

[FourSixEight]

smudboy wrote...

tom.bleaker wrote...

Eliud wrote...

Well, I don't know if it has been said before, but I believe legion's Point of View that there are many ways to achieve tecnology. To not destroy the colector base would make humanity use the reaper tecnology and not achieve that tecnology on humanity's terms.

Legion's POV is actually what convinced me to destroy the base.  Reapertech is always a double-edged sword. Using it makes us controllable and predictable. Sovreign says as much in the first game.

Well say goodbye to EDI and Mr. Thanix.

To use an analogy, just because using Blood Magic in Dragon Age can be beneficial, doesn't mean you should go the *whole* way and start harvesting people for organs and blood as Cerberus is unfortunately wont to do.

[Killjoy Cutter]

FourSixEight wrote...

smudboy wrote...

tom.bleaker wrote...

Eliud wrote...

Well, I don't know if it has been said before, but I believe legion's Point of View that there are many ways to achieve tecnology. To not destroy the colector base would make humanity use the reaper tecnology and not achieve that tecnology on humanity's terms.

Legion's POV is actually what convinced me to destroy the base.  Reapertech is always a double-edged sword. Using it makes us controllable and predictable. Sovreign says as much in the first game.

Well say goodbye to EDI and Mr. Thanix.

To use an analogy, just because using Blood Magic in Dragon Age can be beneficial, doesn't mean you should go the *whole* way and start harvesting people for organs and blood as Cerberus is unfortunately wont to do.

And it's not like Cerberus has shown much history of restraint... they're not known for half-measures or a cautious approach.

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 20 août 2010 - 03:41 .

[JohnnyBeGood2]

100 bajillion posts and still going strong, this thread surprises me

Modifié par JohnnyBeGood2, 20 août 2010 - 03:56 .

[gi0m]

So what is it exactly you think the Reaper base has that we so desperately need ?  What makes the Collector base one of the most " influental" chances we have against the Reapers ?  How is the Base a weapon of mass destruction ?

because it's simply the closest we can get to the ultra awesome reaper's technology, there is a lot to gain from that.
And judging by the mega laser of the collector ship, I'm pretty sure the base hold a lot of stuff like that. Maybe another ship inside. Who knows.

[FourSixEight]

JohnnyBeGood2 wrote...

100 bajillion posts and still going strong, this thread surprises me

It's a testament to BioWare's new skill to making hotly debated in-game decisions, no?

[JohnnyBeGood2]

FourSixEight wrote...

JohnnyBeGood2 wrote...

100 bajillion posts and still going strong, this thread surprises me

It's a testament to BioWare's new skill to making hotly debated in-game decisions, no?

yes, true. New people debate the points.. I'm just not sure if anything new has been raised.

[mosor]

pf17456 wrote...


1. Regardless of the Reapers intent relating to the Base it still has as does all Reaper tech the capacity to indoctrinate, they have an innate fallback position with their tech. TIM/ Cerebrus gaining posession of the Base only means a speedy path to becoming a slushy or some f 'd up bug thing. You are assuming intent

That's a big assumption you make. Regardless, the base is worth an investigation considering we do not know much about the reapers. Even if we do not get much tech, we may get some intelligence. I'd rather take that risk then continue being in the dark.

2. Mordin may not know about the Protheans but he does describe well the results of dependency and how that becomes apathy and stagnation eg becoming husks

You don't need reaper tech to become overly technologically dependent. We do that to ourselves even with today's tech. Understanding reaper methods and tech, could be our salvation from it.

3. I think the road is a two way street with you going one way, thinking the base means glactic salvation from the Reapers assuming that it's acquisition makes us as powerful as the Reapers which to me seems a little grandiose. I'm going in the oppposite direction thinking the Base is little more than a trap leading to indoctrination allowing a Reaper victory. Once you realize you've been suckered in to something you are left with a choice; either to continue being sucked in or saying enough is enough. I've chosen the latter by exploding the Base.

It doesn't have to be an either or situation. I don't expect the base to make humanity as powerful as the reapers. Maybe, who knows. However, it may give us clues to their motivations, tactics, and how to counter them. For all we know, we may learn E. Coli bacteria is lethal to reapers. Or maybe those nanobots that liquified humans and assembled reapers can be set in reverse, and destroy reapers rather than rebuilding them.  That would be great. We have a way to defeat them. Or we could end up with absolutely nothing. That's fine too. At least we tried.

We cannot both be right but we can both be wrong in our assessment. Guess we'll see what happens next year or the year after.

There is a possibilty that the base does have a way of destroying the reapers and at the same time there is a way to defeat them without the base. One way leaves humanity strong and powerful enough to control the galaxy and the other leaves humanity respected enough to form some federation at the end of the game. If you metagame, you know whatever your choice regarding the base, your decision isn't going to be disaterous. However, If I was really put into that situation, I'd save it. To paraphrase Legion when you're debating your decision. This base represents data, and destroying it will not bring back the people who died.

Modifié par mosor, 21 août 2010 - 12:06 .

[G Kevin]

I don't see any gain whatsoever. Harbinger is directly controlling the collectors through the collector general. By doing that, he can directly oversee the construction of the human reaper as if he was there himself. He would not need to store any data at the collector base, instead he could just easily tell the collectors to put part A in part B. Plus, why would he have extra data at the collectors base? The collectors have no mind of their own, its no use to them.

[BellatrixLugosi]

Thread, going, in, circles

[Turkey Braveheart]

G Kevin wrote...

I don't see any gain whatsoever. Harbinger is directly controlling the collectors through the collector general. By doing that, he can directly oversee the construction of the human reaper as if he was there himself. He would not need to store any data at the collector base, instead he could just easily tell the collectors to put part A in part B. Plus, why would he have extra data at the collectors base? The collectors have no mind of their own, its no use to them.

The weapons and engines are so advanced that simply posessing them is a step forward. That and thousands of dead collectors could allow to study indoctrination in its most extreme form. If we loose people studying the ship, it's an acceptable risk.

[Razorsedge820]

During my first couple of playthroughs I struggled with this decision but after reading Mass Effect Redemption recently it made destroying the collector base so much easier. Cerberus can not be trusted thats why I destroyed the base.

[G Kevin]

I don't know about advanced weapons, because we seemed to take them down fairly easy. I did not notice anything particular about engines either. The only thing you can research from the base is how to make one in the first place surrounding all those black holes. Even then, why would there be any blue prints or anything of that matter that would help you build one?

Modifié par G Kevin, 22 août 2010 - 02:46 .

[Ryoko]

because TIM is a big fat jerk that is going to die of lung cancer, and no one likes him!

[dahoughtonuk]

in one of my playthrough I destroyed the base because each time so far TIM said I've got reaper tech it tuned out to be some kind of trap. Shepard decided he could not trust TIM. (We have an uneavesdroppable communication link and he never warns me I 'm heading into a trap. He's trying to get me killed. At least Harbinger seemed reluctant to kill me.

From stage one it seemed as if the Illusive Man had changed his mind about rescuing me. Let's see I am woken up to prevent my assaination. he sends me to a plague zone where humans are getting killed. An attack on archangel when I will get killed either by archangel or if I contact him by the mercenaries. Then the warden try's to take my prisoner and a horde of Krogan. Haelstom (While I went to rescue Tali, it's yet another deathtrap). Ilium is safer but then it is an asari world.

In fact I felt safer on Tuchanka than I did with TIM. Emotional yes. Personally i felt TIM had betrayed us.

Personal feeling yes. But understanble. I

In another playhtough I decided to not risk indoctrination.

Both are different reasons for the same end.

Modifié par dahoughtonuk, 22 août 2010 - 10:13 .

[gi0m]

Ryoko wrote...

because TIM is a big fat jerk that is going to die of lung cancer, and no one likes him!

Well i'll trust more the illusive man than someone with your incredibly disturbing forum portrait. he just seems more sane.

[pf17456]

[quote]mosor wrote...
[/quote]

It doesn't have to be an either or situation. I don't expect the base to make humanity as powerful as the reapers. Maybe, who knows. However, it may give us clues to their motivations, tactics, and how to counter them. For all we know, we may learn E. Coli bacteria is lethal to reapers. Or maybe those nanobots that liquified humans and assembled reapers can be set in reverse, and destroy reapers rather than rebuilding them.  That would be great. We have a way to defeat them. Or we could end up with absolutely nothing. That's fine too. At least we tried.

[/quote]

While I like your idea about re engineering nanobots to devour Reapers I think tech of that nature would better be suited to Salarian scientists rather than Cerebrus but given TIM's rational while trying to talk Shepard out of destroying the Base it would seem his goal with that tech is more along the lines of building his own Reaper to dominate the galaxy which appears a bit over the top and more along the lines of meglamania and this element considered leads me to believe the risk does not outweigh the benifit. Speculations about the secret wonders hidden in the collector base are just speculation. We do know it's a Reaper factory and a wearhouse for pods containing humans waiting to be turned into goo. The weapon tech we already have when we picked up the gun on Horizon. So what does anybody expect TIM to do with a newly acquired Collector base ? If he attempts building his own reaper he's simply completing the reaper task for them. I believe TIM is more focused on being dominate than he is with fighting the Reaper threat = fail. I think we've got a better chance with Galactic unification, learning to utilize Dark Energy and perhaps blowing up the Citidal if we discover it to be a source of indoctrination.

[Dean_the_Young]

Galactic unification? Who in the galaxy wants that?



You'd have to overthrow the Council, conquer the Terminus, drag along the Alliance, and more before you could even hope to do that.

[primero holodon]

Honestly Cerberus is too much of a Liability. I mean look at their track record... just about every experiment they run results in the subject getting out of control and killing everyone. and thats just the small experiments on individual people and equipment, imagine what could go wrong when they experiment on a reaper baby making machine.