68 réponses à ce sujet

[RGFrog]

Cool, i wasn't placing the points in any order. Didn't even think about skipping the unlocked power since with characters like Grunt, you have to waste 3 points to unlock the ammo power.

Thanks for the clarification

[Thompson family]

Ignoring — for now — the entirely valid argument that character builds can be vitally influenced by the build of a player's Shepard:



The winner so far of the least controversial build is: Miranda.



The only significant dissenter from the 4441 build for her is Simbacca, who proposes 4144 build or a 1444 build. Could we get you to expound on your reasoning, Simbacca?

[Pacifien]

I had thought of writing about a 1/4/4/4 build for Miranda for two reasons. 1) For tech Shepards, you could very likely have your own Overload or Energy Drain to make up for Miranda having a weak version of it. And you only need the 1 point in Overload to cause flammable canisters to explode. 2) Miranda's Slam can used to set up Warp Explosions. It also instantly kills unarmored husks. It also gets an enemy out of the way while Slam is in progress, potentially killing for good once Slam finishes.

Modifié par Pacifien, 03 juin 2010 - 09:25 .

[Alamar2078]

I vary the team builds so heavily depending on what Shep's skills are that it doesn't make sense to list a single best build.



Some rules of thumb that I have though are:



-- If I'm happy with Shep's Squad Ammo powers [think Soldier] then there's no use putting a squadmates points there. If Shep doesn't have good ammo powers [many caster classes] then I often max out my squadmates ammo powers and set them for Squad.



-- For "weapons" classes I max Miranda's squad +weapon damage ability ... For "caster" classes I max +health



-- I never bother putting points into any Cryo abilities ... they don't seem to get it done for me



-- I like maxing out the passive abilities esp. for characters where you get substantial cooldown or other benefits ...

[Simbacca]

Thompson family wrote...

Ignoring — for now — the entirely valid argument that character builds can be vitally influenced by the build of a player's Shepard:

The winner so far of the least controversial build is: Miranda.

The only significant dissenter from the 4441 build for her is Simbacca, who proposes 4144 build or a 1444 build. Could we get you to expound on your reasoning, Simbacca?

Pacifien beat me to it, his reasoning is spot on to what I was thinking.

Pacifien wrote...

I had thought of writing about a 1/4/4/4 build for Miranda for two reasons. 1) For tech Shepards, you could very
likely have your own Overload or Energy Drain to make up for Miranda having a weak version of it. And you only need the 1 point in Overload to cause flammable canisters to explode. 2) Miranda's Slam can used to
set up Warp Explosions. It also instantly kills unarmored husks. It also gets an enemy out of the way while Slam is in progress, potentially killing for good once Slam finishes.

In addtion to that, early game Miranda is the only one you can get an anti-barrier power with.  You can't get Thane or Samara until after Horizon, and you have to do Samara's and Jack's loyalty missions to get their anti-barrier abilities.  Early game, you can get access to Garrus for Overload and Zaeed for Disruptor Ammo.  If Shepard also has Overload, Energy Drain, or Disruptor Ammo, why not mess around with Miranda's Crippling Slam later on for not only Warp Explosions, but also single target lockdown (8 sec disable, 9 sec recharge, almost permanent).  Yes I would agree that the 4/4/4/1 build is probably "better" more often, but it all depends on playstyle and squad needs.

Modifié par Simbacca, 04 juin 2010 - 06:05 .

[Bozorgmehr]

Simbacca wrote...

Early game, Miranda is the only one you can get an anti-barrier power with.  You can't get Thane or Samara until after Horizon, and you have to do Samara's and Jack's loyalty missions to get their anti-barrier abilities.

Thane can use Warp right away.

Early game, you can get access to Garrus for Overload and Zaeed for Disruptor Ammo.  If Shepard also has Overload, Energy Drain, or Disruptor Ammo, why not mess around with Miranda's Crippling Slam later on for not only Warp Explosions, but also single target lockdown (8 sec disable, 9 sec recharge, almost permanent).  Yes I would agree that the 4/4/4/1 build is probably "better" more often, but it all depends on playstyle and squad needs.

Exactly! Your squad setup is what matters. It's far more interesting to discuss the team you're using for a particular mission. Shep and his/her squadies are not lvl 30 the entire game (if you're not playing NG+). If you play an Infiltrator and you're going to Horizon at lvl 12, what powers do you use/have and who is going to join you and what powers do they use/have?

Example: Straight after Freedom's Progress (imported lvl 60 ME1 character) I always get Mordin first. I take Miranda and Jacob with me. They form an excelent team. Jacob provides Squad Incendiary Ammo and has one point in Pull to setup Warp explosions. Miranda has Unstable Warp (to get cooldown on par with Jacob's Pull - 9 s) and one point in Overload to detonate Pyros and crates.
It doesn't matter what class you're playing. You shouldn't waste points to abilities your squadies already have.

The good thing about ME2 is that Shep can respec, the bad thing is squadies don't.

[Simbacca]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

Simbacca wrote...

Early game, Miranda is the only one you can get an anti-barrier power with.  You can't get Thane or Samara until after Horizon, and you have to do Samara's and Jack's loyalty missions to get their anti-barrier abilities.

Thane can use Warp right away.

I know, I said you can't recruit him till after Horizon.

[tonnactus]

Zaeeds grenade its great to strip armor when its evolved to the heavy version.Better then warp,even if warp is fully upgraded.

[tonnactus]

Simbacca wrote...

In addtion to that, early game Miranda is the only one you can get an anti-barrier power with.

You are wrong.Shadow strike is effective against barriers.It has a 2 multiplier for all defenses.

[Simbacca]

tonnactus wrote...

You are wrong.

Boy that made you feel good, didn't it.

Allow me to correct myself:

"In addtion to that, early game Miranda is the only non-DLC squadmate you can get an anti-barrier power with. "

Yes, Shadow Strike is effective against everything, just like Flashbang is effective CC on everything.  I typically don't use the hyper overpowered Kasumi.

Modifié par Simbacca, 07 juin 2010 - 01:38 .

[Thompson family]

This thread had a pretty good run after I completely disappeared. Sorry for that. Simbacca, my belated thanks to you for the cogent explanation. I'll try to pull together some more gleanings and summaries of the thoughts here over the weekend.

[Homebound]

Whats a good build for ALL characters so that they wont have any left-overs?

[Pacifien]

Just_mike wrote...
Whats a good build for ALL characters so that they wont have any left-overs?

When you get a character's loyalty, they will automatically get a point into their bonus power. Because of this, if you want to use all their points, the build would have to look something like x/4/4/4 or 4/x/4/4 or 4/4/x/4.

However, Jacob and Miranda have 1 extra point compared to all the other squadmates, so you can get away with 4/4/4/1 with them. Or 1/4/4/4. Or 4/1/4/4. Or 4/4/1/4.

If you don't want to put all your points into the bonus power, you'll end up with 1 unused point. Which is just... annoying. Then you get a build like 3/4/4/2.

[Pacifien]

I just did a playthrough were I didn't get any of the squadmates' loyalties, and I have to say, not having access to some of those bonus powers hurts. Samara's Reave, Kasumi's Flashbang Grenade, Tali's Energy Drain, even Miranda's Slam. I missed my squadmates having access to these powers.

But it did make me wonder if I made it to level 30 before doing Garrus's or Thane's loyalty missions, if I could somehow get around that obligatory 1 point in their bonus powers.

[Homebound]

So Bioware is basically saying is, you HAVE to max out the loyalty skill?



When I think about Thane's useless loyalty skill, it makes me wonder..Is it supposed to be a 1-hit kill type of thing vs unshielded organics?

[Pacifien]

Just_mike wrote...
So Bioware is basically saying is, you HAVE to max out the loyalty skill?

When I think about Thane's useless loyalty skill, it makes me wonder..Is it supposed to be a 1-hit kill type of thing vs unshielded organics?

You don't have to max out the loyalty power. You just won't be able to max out three powers if you don't.

I was never a fan of Thane's Shredder Ammo, but the developers designed the game around Normal difficulty where there are far fewer enemies with defenses. With Thane's weapon bonus and Shredder Ammo, he'd cut down every unshielded organic in his sights.

Unfortunately, if you play Hardcore/Insanity, you can't get rid of Thane's Shredder Ammo fast enough. Luckily, the developers patched that bug that had squadmates overriding squad ammo with their own.

[ArmeniusLOD]

Pacifien wrote...

Just_mike wrote...
Whats a good build for ALL characters so that they wont have any left-overs?

When you get a character's loyalty, they will automatically get a point into their bonus power. Because of this, if you want to use all their points, the build would have to look something like x/4/4/4 or 4/x/4/4 or 4/4/x/4.

However, Jacob and Miranda have 1 extra point compared to all the other squadmates, so you can get away with 4/4/4/1 with them. Or 1/4/4/4. Or 4/1/4/4. Or 4/4/1/4.

If you don't want to put all your points into the bonus power, you'll end up with 1 unused point. Which is just... annoying. Then you get a build like 3/4/4/2.

It would actually be 4/0/4/4 or 4/4/0/4 when you use all points (4/4/4/1, 1/4/4/4 or 4/1/4/4 for Miranda and Jacob).  Remember that everyone except Miri and Jacob requires 2 in their first power to unlock the second.  They got rid of the SP glitch so you can't regain any points allocated automatically.  This means everyone will always have one point allocated in their first and loyalty powers whether you want them there or not.

So you were right on everything except for 0/4/4/4 on everyone else.

[Id of Ith]

Personally, with Jacob I do not put any more points in Pull. I only use his Pull to set up one of my own Warp combos (Sentinel) or to just drag someone out of cover (Infiltrator). I don't think Pull Field or the brief duration extension is worth sacrificing points out of his passive. Generally I prefer 1/4/4/4 instead.

[Thompson family]

Maybe I've been looking at this question in the wrong way. For instance, I was taking a look at Garrus.



His Turian Rebel, or whatever, power upgrades all his powers by 25 percent. While that's been mentioned and is reflected in some of the builds here, I should have made that explicit because that means you can get to a level three on a couple of skills and have, for instance, a concussive shot power that's just as strong as anyone else's that's fully upgraded.

[ajburges]

There are a few mates that I have pined down fully (and their role):

Miranda (Versitile defense striping & Increase personal damage)
4 Overload (Heavy)
4 Warp (Heavy)
4 Cerberus Officer (Leader)
1 Slam

Jacob (Squad ammo dispenser for Zaeed/Thane/Miranda; poor man's tank)
1 Pull     
4 Incendiary Ammo (Squad)
4 Cerberus Operative (Specialist)
4 Barrier (Heavy)

Morodin (Undecided, only certianty is Incineration Blast)

Garrus (Shield striping (area to compliment Miranda); incisor abuser; possibly AP ammo provider if Shep needs it)
2 Concussive Shot     
4 Overload (Area)
4/3 Turian Rebel (Renegade)
3/4 Armor Piercing Ammo (Squad)

Grunt (Tank; anti Husk measure)
2 Concussive Shot     
3 Incendiary Ammo
4 Krogan Berserker (Pureblood)
4 Fortification (Heavy)

Jack (Warp Ammo Provider; Anti-Husk Measure in easy with Morodin or Shep with Incineration Bleast)
3 Shockwave     
2 Pull
4 Subject Zero (Either)
4 Warp Ammo (Squad)

Thane (Barrier/Armor Stripping (Unstable for cooldown); heavy incisor abuse)
3 Throw
4 Warp (Unstable
4 Drell Assassin     
2 Shredder Ammo

Tali (Dorne; Shield Drain)
4 Combat Drone (Attack)
0 AI Hacking
4 Quarian Machinist (Engineer)
4 Energy Drain (Area)

Samara (Reave)
3 Throw     
2 Pull
4 Asari Justicar (Sapiens)    
4 Reave (Area)

Morinth (Dominator; AR user)
3 Throw     
2 Pull
4 Ardat-Yakshi (Malian)
4 Dominate (Area)

Legion (AI Hacking; Widow User)
4 AI Hacking (Area)    
0 Combat Drone
4 Geth Infiltrator (Assassin)
4 Geth Shield Boost (Improved)

Kasumi (Defense Stripping; Glass Cannon; Damping)
4 Shadow Strike (Deadly)
0 Overload
4 Master Thief (Infiltrator)
4 Flashbang Grenade (Improved)

Zaeed (Helpful gun; Incisor Abuse)
2 Concussive Shot     
4 Disruptor Ammo (Either)
4 Mercenary Veteran (Warlord)
3 Inferno Grenade

[Pacifien]

I'm about to have another look at Cryo Blast versus Neural Shock. I've had great fun with Neural Shock, but once I got even one point in Cryo Blast with my Engineer, I decided it was just as awesome.

Anyway, I also learned that holding off until level 30 to do Thane's loyalty mission didn't do anything to prevent one point going to Shredder Ammo. The game actually holds off on that final point he should have by level 30 simply so it can go into Shredder Ammo. Those bastards. Retrain squadmate abilities for ME3 for sure.

[DioBlastoise]

Im curious about Kasumi's Shadow Strike...some say Rapid others say Deadly.



Can someone point out the likelyhood of Rapid working effectively on Insanity? Id imagine you have Kasumi preform SS when the enemies have been weakened a fair bit to have that bonus useful...or would Deadly be just good on all occasions with the increase damage it doesnt matter if the enemy is weaked before or not...?

[Arhka]

My builds.


JACOB:
Pull —  4
Incendiary Ammo — 1 (only because I had a point left over.)
Cerberus Operative — 4
Barrier (Loyalty Power) -- 4 (Solely to allow him to use Pull occasionally)
Unused Points -- 0

MIRANDA:
Overload — 4
Warp — 4
Cerberus Officer — 4
Slam (loyalty power) — 1
Unused points -- 0

GARRUS:
Concussive Shot — 4
Overload — 0
Turian Rebel — 4
Armor Piercing Ammo (loyal) —4
Unused points -- 0

MORDIN:
Incinerate — 4
Cyro Blast —
Salarian Scientist — 4
Neural Shock (loyal) — 4
Unused -- 0

GRUNT:
Concussive shot — 1
Incendiary Ammo — 4
Krogan Berserker — 4
Fortification (loyal) — 3

JACK:
Shockwave — 2
Pull — 2
Subject Zero — 4
Warp ammo (loyal) — 4
Unused -- 1

THANE:
Throw — 3
Warp — 4
Drell Assassin — 4
Shredder Ammo (loyal) — 1

SAMARA (for Mornith, see below):
Throw — 4
Pull — 0
Asari Justicar — 4
Reave (loyal) — 4
Unused -- 0

MORINTH (This choice eliminates Samara):
(I've never used this character)
Throw —
Pull —
Ardat-Yakshi —
Dominate (loyal, but she’s loyal as soon as she’s recruited) —
Unused --

TALI:
Combat Drone — 4
AI Hacking — 0
Quarian Machinist — 4
Energy Drain (loyal) — 4
Unused --

LEGION:
AI Hacking — 2
Combat Drone — 4
Geth Infiltrator — 4
Geth Shield Boost (loyal) — 3

ZAEED:
Concussive Shot — 2
Disruptor Ammo — 4
Mercennary Veteran — 4
Inferno Grenade (loyal) — 3
Unused -- 1

KASUMI:
Shadow Strike — 4
Overload — 0
Master Thief — 4
Flashbang Grenade (loyal) — 4
Unused -- 0

[Arhka]

DioBlastoise wrote...

Im curious about Kasumi's Shadow Strike...some say Rapid others say Deadly.

Can someone point out the likelyhood of Rapid working effectively on Insanity? Id imagine you have Kasumi preform SS when the enemies have been weakened a fair bit to have that bonus useful...or would Deadly be just good on all occasions with the increase damage it doesnt matter if the enemy is weaked before or not...?

Rapid can work, as it does good damage, and also gets multipliers against protection. Just make sure to soften enemies up a bit, and then watch Kasumi go to work.

[Arhka]

Simbacca wrote...

tonnactus wrote...

You are wrong.

Boy that made you feel good, didn't it.

Allow me to correct myself:

"In addtion to that, early game Miranda is the only non-DLC squadmate you can get an anti-barrier power with. "

Yes, Shadow Strike is effective against everything, just like Flashbang is effective CC on everything.  I typically don't use the hyper overpowered Kasumi.

No, Concussive Shot is also an anti-barrier power(for standard enemies), and Incinerate still breaks barriers decently. Just because it has an effectiveness vs. a certain protection doesn't necessarily mean it only works on that one protection.