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[Eudaemonium]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

"What is better, for the elves to be sold into slavery? Or for them to remain in the Alienage with no hope?"

What the heck, that's the most bizarre crack logic I've ever heard: "Hey, these people live in ghettos, obviously enslaving them is so much nicer to them! See, we're doing them a favour!" You're tearing people away from their loved ones and families on the pretence of giving them some better life elsewhere that will probably be at least as bad, and which they have no choice over.

[nos_astra]

I always thought they were selling them to blood mages and that they were expecting death by serving as "mana batteries".

[Tirigon]

klarabella wrote...

I always thought they were selling them to blood mages and that they were expecting death by serving as "mana batteries".

That is the case, actually. Even though loghain might not have known it.
But the Tevinter mage leader offers to use their lifeforce to make you stronger if you let him go.

Needless to say this bastard dies EVERY TIME, even on my bloodmage characters.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Because the guy in charge of the operation was a blood mage? I presumed that was just Tevinter Imperium policy (mages being in positions of power and all). Anything's possible for new slaves, though...

[nos_astra]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Because the guy in charge of the operation was a blood mage? I presumed that was just Tevinter Imperium policy (mages being in positions of power and all). Anything's possible for new slaves, though...

And ordinary elven slaves will yield enough coin to fund an army three times the size? Even selling the entire Denerim Alienage into slavery might not be enough to accomplish this.

Unless Loghain is lying or being delusional again concerning his estamations about the army he was trying to built the Tevinter guys were paying a healthy price for the elves ... I can only imagine what would be worth it, enhanced magical power maybe?

[Costin_Razvan]

What the heck, that's the most bizarre crack logic I've ever heard: "Hey, these people live in ghettos, obviously enslaving them is so much nicer to them! See, we're doing them a favour!" You're tearing people away from their loved ones and families on the pretence of giving them some better life elsewhere that will probably be at least as bad, and which they have no choice over.

Sorry if I believe that a few thousand sodding lives mean **** to me when compared to tens of thousands. I apologize.

Or perhaps you believe it is better for them to just be left to die at the hands of the Darkspawn, perhaps let Fereldan fall out of morality. And yes believe it is better for them to be sold in slavery then be killed by the Darkspawn.

Unless Loghain is lying or being delusional again concerning his estamations about the army he was trying to built the Tevinter guys were paying a healthy price for the elves ... I can only imagine what would be worth it, enhanced magical power maybe?

A slave is expensive to buy. They are not something cheap, and not something any person can afford.

Wow, I didn't think I could despise the guy even more but it's possible.

What kind of army is he talking about? Mercenaries?

Conscripting a large force, equipping them with armor and weapons and feeding them 2-3 times a day is bloody expensive. Don't fool yourself into thinking it's cheap.

 After all, the Night Elves were the most feared Fereldan unit in the War..

And so he should not do what must be done because he used elven soldiers before?

The Night Elves were most effective as scouts and ambushers, not at fighting pitched battles.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 03 juin 2010 - 11:43 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

klarabella wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Because the guy in charge of the operation was a blood mage? I presumed that was just Tevinter Imperium policy (mages being in positions of power and all). Anything's possible for new slaves, though...

And ordinary elven slaves will yield enough coin to fund an army three times the size? Even selling the entire Denerim Alienage into slavery might not be enough to accomplish this.

Maybe, I don't know. Games don't always look too closely at realistic economics. You could be right, but if so I'm surprised that you can't announce that info at the Landsmeet. Telling everyone the elves were going to feed Tevinter Blood Mages would have gotten *much* more of a response than just saying they were going into slavery, I think.

Unless Loghain is lying or being delusional again concerning his estamations about the army he was trying to built the Tevinter guys were paying a healthy price for the elves ... I can only imagine what would be worth it, enhanced magical power maybe?

Maybe (just throwing random ideas around before sleep time) it has something to do with Tevinter relations with other countries? I don't know how widespread actual *slavery* is in Thedas for one thing, and Tevinter isn't exactly loved by certain other nations. If they can't get slaves from other avenues it might make demanding a higher price easier from Loghain's corner.

Or maybe we're just not meant to examine this aspect of the game too closely. XD

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 03 juin 2010 - 12:04 .

[nos_astra]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
Conscripting a large force, equipping them with armor and weapons and feeding them 2-3 times a day is bloody expensive. Don't fool yourself into thinking it's cheap.

Who is he going to conscript? Farmers? Refugees? The soldiers and knights of opposing banns/arls? Where was he going to conscript a large force from? Foreign countries?

Costin_Razvan wrote...
A slave is expensive to buy. They are not something cheap, and not something any person can afford.

Elves are not exactly valued in Thedas. They are cheap workers you can treat like dirt. Why would someone pay a huge price for owning them?

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...
Or maybe we're just not meant
to examine this aspect of the game too closely. XD

Not if Loghain is supposed to survive the Landsmeet.

Modifié par klarabella, 03 juin 2010 - 12:11 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Elves are not exactly valued in Thedas. They are cheap workers you can treat like dirt. Why would someone pay a huge price for owning them?

Neither were Gauls, Germans, Iberians etc. valued by the Romans, they still cost quite a lot. At the time of Augustus a single slave cost about 500 denarii or about 2000 sestertii ( which would roughly equate to about 20.000 dollars in modern times. )  and remember, this was mere years after Gaul and Egypt had been conquered fully, so there was an abundance of them.

Given how life is for an average elf...I would say you are doing them a favor by selling them.

Despite what movies might show, slaves were kept healthy and well, due to their high price. Gladiators especially.

Who is he going to conscript? Farmers? Refugees? The soldiers and knights of opposing banns/arls? Where was he going to conscript a large force from? Foreign countries?

Exactly. Farmers and Refugees. You don't know how easy it is to get those kind of people to fight for you when their homesteads are defenseless, not that conscription isn't forcing others to fight mind you.

But you still MUST provide payment, armor and food for ALL of them.

 Not if Loghain is supposed to survive the Landsmeet.

That's personal thought, you can be surprised that some of us who spared him hardly care about the Alienage Elves ( I don't think you do particularly care for a community in beggars, miscreants, thieves and ****s in real now do you? ) , about Cailan ( Glory seeking fool ) or about Jowan.

The fact of the matter is that the decision of sparring Loghain or not comes down simply to whether or not you care that much about Alistair leaving or not for most people. It's play biggest role beyond ANYTHING Loghain has done ( I don't really care about what some Ali fangirls say, the fact of the matter is that if Alistair wouldn't have a crisis moment there and then, almost everyone would recruit Loghain )

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 03 juin 2010 - 01:51 .

[jpdipity]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Given how life is for an average elf...I would say you are doing them a favor by selling them.

Wow, I can't believe you went there.  I would have to completely disagree with that statement.

Modifié par jpdipity, 03 juin 2010 - 02:53 .

[nos_astra]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
Given how life is for an average elf...I would say you are doing them a favor by selling them.

Given how much Loghain managed to destroy within one year I'm doing him (and Ferelden) a favor by lopping his head off. Really.

[Giggles_Manically]

Well since I do not personally believe in Capital Punishment, I do not execute a man publically in front of his daughter. Alister can whine at me all he wants, I do not twist my morals to make people happy. The best system is one where people repay the world for their mistakes, and while yes Loghain FUBARED all of Ferelden and did henious acts, to me destroying your soul and ending the genocidal blight pays for it.



Also I like Alistair up until the Landsmeet, but his whole crisis Irks me.

[Addai]

klarabella wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...
I don't think he is racist about it....if you confront him in camp about the slavers ( as in choose the response: If despise you, it's because you deserve, then call him a slaver ) then he will simply and bluntly tell you that the army you have now, could have been three times the size had the Tevinters not been stopped...and then he asks you: "What is better, for the elves to be sold into slavery? Or for them to remain in the Alienage with no hope?"

Wow, I didn't think I could despise the guy even more but it's possible. <_<

What kind of army is he talking about? Mercenaries?

Yes, so much for him being more likable and understandable once you're sharing a camp with him.

Does he say anything about Howe's purge?  Just think of all the revenue that was wasted there!  You could have gotten a good price for those orphanage children.

[Addai]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Well since I do not personally believe in Capital Punishment, I do not execute a man publically in front of his daughter. Alister can whine at me all he wants, I do not twist my morals to make people happy. The best system is one where people repay the world for their mistakes, and while yes Loghain FUBARED all of Ferelden and did henious acts, to me destroying your soul and ending the genocidal blight pays for it.
 

Your PC can't possibly know he is going to do this at the time you decide to spare him.

[Costin_Razvan]

jpdipity wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Given how life is for an average elf...I would say you are doing them a favor by selling them.

Wow, I can't believe you went there.  I would have to completely disagree with that statement.

Believe what you will...though tell me truly, have you seen people live in real life similar to that of the Alienage Elves? As in jobless, penyless, hungry, thieving, whoring community? As it saddens me to say this, I have seen such things in my country.

As a slave they get a certain roof over their head, food, health care ( no one is going to let a good slave die after having spent so much coin ). Their jobs can range from working the fields, to tutoring children, servants and house cleaners. 

Slaves back in the American Days, before it was abolished, most likely lived in far better conditions then people do in some countries in Africa today.

The fact of the matter, you can't just dismiss with "Stealing people's rights is wrong." The world doesn't spin like that.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 03 juin 2010 - 03:50 .

[Addai]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

As a slave they get a certain roof over their head, food, health care ( no one is going to let a good slave die after having spent so much coin ). Their jobs can range from working the fields, to tutoring children, servants and house cleaners. 

Then he should have been clearing out the human ghettos, too, and the Bannorn rabble.  I'm sure everyone would be acclaiming him for such a "reasonable" solution to poverty and the war chest.

[Costin_Razvan]

I appreciate your wit, despite the fact there is no human slavery in Thedas.

[Addai]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

I appreciate your wit, despite the fact there is no human slavery in Thedas.

Oh, right.  Such prejudice against the human poor.  Tsk.  Well, it could have been one of Loghain's reforms.

[sylvanaerie]

You amuse me. I have to wonder what kind of fluffy bunny world you live in where you have such a rose colored glasses view on slavery.

Quite often slaves taken from Africa never saw the Western coast. They were packed in like bags of wheat, disease rampant, starvation, dehydration, abuse. Most likely a lot of these elven slaves never even made it to Tevinter.

When they get there they will live in squalor. Slaves didn't live with their masters and eat off the table and sleep in their beds (Unless they were taken as sex slaves and probably not allowed to SLEEP there either, just used and sent off to let their master sleep). Masters didn't usually provide much by way of health care either, not caring if they died. (There will always be more to replace them)

Worse, is knowing you have no control over your life whatsoever, knowing that someone else can take it away at a moments notice and no one would care esp if you have no value beyond being a labor slave (which is what the elves will be and thats assuming the lucky ones who DON"T get sold to blood mages as mana batteries). Why do you think they need 'new blood' in Tevinter...Life isn't a box of chocolates there for the slaves.

I don't see much evidence of whoring and thieving going on in the Alienage (not to say it doesn't but you make it sound like every elf in the Alienage is morally corrupt). Certainly the PC's family wasn't. Valendrian wasn't. Nor was Nyssa so eager to go to Ostagar and get raped by the human soldiers there.

So I have to disagree with your assessment, a life of slavery was NOT preferable to one of freedom.

[Costin_Razvan]

You amuse me. I have to wonder what kind of fluffy bunny world you live in where you have such a rose colored glasses view on slavery.

The kind of world where I know exactly what kind of conditions people live in Africa these days, but by all means ignore that, please. By all means believe that it is a good life then what slavery was for those shipped to America.

Imagine the worst ghetto you can think of, then multiply that by about seven, and that's what you are going to get for living conditions in Africa, and that's TODAY.  ( after over one hundred years since slavery was abolished in the USA )

Life isn't a box of chocolates either way you take it. My original point was in response to the belief that slavery is incredibly bad, considering what they are being taken from....'tis not so big a difference.

And no, the city elves don't have a life far off from that, apparently they eat rat meat commonly......which probably should tell you something.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 03 juin 2010 - 04:28 .

[Apophis2412]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

You amuse me. I have to wonder what kind of fluffy bunny world you live in where you have such a rose colored glasses view on slavery.

The kind of world where I know exactly what kind of conditions people live in Africa these days, but by all means ignore that, please. By all means believe that it is a good life then what slavery was for those shipped to America.

Like all things in this world slavery is not inherently evil. The crux of the matter is the question if it is worth sacrificing your freedom for better living conditions, food, etc.

I agree that many black slaves died in the 18th century when they were transported from Africa to the USA. However, historical research has also shown that the living conditions of a black slave living in 18th century America was far better than those of other disadvantaged groups, like 19th century English factory workers.

[Addai]

Apophis2412 wrote...
Like all things in this world slavery is not inherently evil. The crux of the matter is the question if it is worth sacrificing your freedom for better living conditions, food, etc.

I agree that many black slaves died in the 18th century when they were transported from Africa to the USA. However, historical research has also shown that the living conditions of a black slave living in 18th century America was far better than those of other disadvantaged groups, like 19th century English factory workers.

I cannot believe we're even having this discussion.  I was indulging the (lack of) logic by proposing that Loghain institute this reform to help eliminate human poverty, but it's going too far.

Ripping men, women and children from their homes and selling them as property to be used for whatever purpose the buyer likes is evil.  End of story.

[Costin_Razvan]

It's laughable to consider the whole of the human race anything but evil, considering our past and current actions. ( Not that I believe in such foolish things as good or evil but each to their own ).

The fact of the matter is that slavery did improve the lives of some people, despite the lack of a free will. Then again....I remember how much "free will" children working in factories had, until new laws were made.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 03 juin 2010 - 05:05 .

[Tirigon]

Please don´t get too political here, unless you want to provoke a lockdown.



Costin, if you believe slavery is better than being poor you should just TALK to actual slaves maybe. This sort of sh!t still exists, unfortunately.



Ingame anyways, the elves disagree. When you save them they seem happy, at least. If slavery would be an improvemment they wouldn´t THANK you for killing the slavers, right?



And about humanity being evil.... Well I´ve always been more on the Darkspawn side. They seem so much more likable than your human enemies, and reading "The Calling" just proves my impression right. There´s a reason why Duncan sometimes wished for a Blight to come.

[Costin_Razvan]

This sort of sh!t still exists, unfortunately.

I wasn't comparing it to slavery today...which in my opinion is far worse then it was in the past. Rather I was comparing it to the slave trade of the 16th century and Roman Republic/Empire ( mostly the latter ).

Ingame anyways, the elves disagree. When you save them they seem happy, at least.

I would be curios to see their reaction after a few years of actually living in slavery, not just a few days staying locked in a cage.

And about humanity being evil.... Well I´ve always been more on the Darkspawn side

Indeed. I tend to find the so called "evil" races more likable then I do my fellow humans.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 03 juin 2010 - 05:21 .