240 réponses à ce sujet

[Tirigon]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

I would be curios to see their reaction after a few years of actually living in slavery.

If they live that long.... I honestly doubt that. If they were meant to be used as slave and not as mana-substitute Caladrius wouldn´t be so eager to sacrifice them for his sick ritual, I think....

And about humanity being evil.... Well I´ve always been more on the Darkspawn side

Indeed, well. I tend to find the so called "evil" races more likable then I do my fellow humans.

That is so because the "evil" guys don´t really do evil things. Orcs and Darkspawn, for example, never rape their victims and rarely / never torture them. They usually settle for simply killing, and you can hardly blame someone for that in a fight for life or death, right?

Compare that with Orlaisian chevaliers who are allowed to rape women just for the fun of it, or Vaughan and Co who kills women to find his pleasure, and I have to say I find the Darkspawn less evil.

Arl Howe to Bryce Cousland:Then we were fighting orlaisians, now Darkspawn.
Bryce Cousland: At least the smell will be the same!

[Costin_Razvan]

If they live that long.... I honestly doubt that. If they were meant to be used as slave and not as mana-substitute Caladrius wouldn´t be so eager to sacrifice them for his sick ritual, I think....

I think he was just looking for a desperate bargaining chip. Why would he come to Fereldan just for that? Certainly one could just round up some vagrants in the Imperium and use them for the same purpose, no?

[Tirigon]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

If they live that long.... I honestly doubt that. If they were meant to be used as slave and not as mana-substitute Caladrius wouldn´t be so eager to sacrifice them for his sick ritual, I think....

I think he was just looking for a desperate bargaining chip. Why would he come to Fereldan just for that? Certainly one could just round up some vagrants in the Imperium and use them for the same purpose, no?

True, but if they want them as slaves you could say the same. It would even be preferrable - according to the codex the elves in Denerim are proud of whatever little freedom they have, and they surely don´t know Tevinter customs. Educating them to make good slaves would be a lot of unnecessary trouble. The Tevinter people make for better slaves and are easier to "tame" because they live in slavery all the time.

[Costin_Razvan]

Maybe the market in Tevinter is already controlled by others, or perhaps Caledrious is part of a bigger faction, who seek to acquire cheaper slaves from Fereldan.

Maybe there isn't a big enough population of free elves in Tevinter to sustain further efforts of slave of trade, who knows....another question left unanswered.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 03 juin 2010 - 05:47 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Tirigon wrote...
That is so because the "evil" guys don´t really do evil things. Orcs and Darkspawn, for example, never rape their victims and rarely / never torture them. They usually settle for simply killing, and you can hardly blame someone for that in a fight for life or death, right?

Broodmothers dude.

Althought they are doing this to survive as a specie and not for sadistic pleasure.

[Giggles_Manically]

Costin why are you trying to justify slavery? Through history it has been one of the most dark and disgusting actions people have ever done. Simply put even my more aggresive or selfish charachters in any RPG go out of their way to kill slavers.



TWIN LAMPS FOREVER!

[KnightofPhoenix]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Costin why are you trying to justify slavery? Through history it has been one of the most dark and disgusting actions people have ever done. Simply put even my more aggresive or selfish charachters in any RPG go out of their way to kill slavers.

Great civilisations that we today admire have been built on the back of slaves. Yes, it might be ugly, but it can and did produce things worth admiring.

[CalJones]

I like to think of them as indentured servants.

[Costin_Razvan]

The first time I heard that woman say that...I wanted to wring her neck, because it all too reminded me of the sex slave trade we today experience. ( Which btw, from what I know, was rare back in ancient days )



I calmed down once I learned how it worked exactly.

[Giggles_Manically]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Costin why are you trying to justify slavery? Through history it has been one of the most dark and disgusting actions people have ever done. Simply put even my more aggresive or selfish charachters in any RPG go out of their way to kill slavers.

Great civilisations that we today admire have been built on the back of slaves. Yes, it might be ugly, but it can and did produce things worth admiring.

Yes that is the case in places like Rome, however there are just as many cases that didnt use slavery.
Such as Ashoka's Mauryan Empire in India, ancient Korea and Japan as well. Sorry If i come off strong slavery and all it entails really irritates me.

[Costin_Razvan]

Sorry If i come off strong slavery and all it entails really irritates me.

You don't have to like it, but don't just ignore it's benefits for the sake of it.

Rome played the biggest role ( along with Greece ) in shaping the entire world as we know it today.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 03 juin 2010 - 06:26 .

[Addai]

CalJones wrote...

I like to think of them as indentured servants.

You might like to think of them as that, but they're not.  Or did you find labor contracts on Caladrius?

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Costin why are you trying to justify slavery? Through history it has been one of the most dark and disgusting actions people have ever done. Simply put even my more aggresive or selfish charachters in any RPG go out of their way to kill slavers.

Great civilisations that we today admire have been built on the back of slaves. Yes, it might be ugly, but it can and did produce things worth admiring.

Hence why it is just fine if Ferelden remain "barbarian."

[Giggles_Manically]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Sorry If i come off strong slavery and all it entails really irritates me.

You don't have to like it, but don't just ignore it's benefits just for the sake of it.

Rome played the biggest role ( along with Greece ) in shaping the entire world as we know it today.

I would say that Greece played the larger part in shaping the West since the Romans borrowed, plagarised, or copied much of their culture. Slavery is abhorent and I will never agree with it, since the people who wrote about how good it was were the OWNERS. While you can do a lot with slaves, the greatest feats of Rome or Egypt were done with trained, hired crews. Slavery has to many issues to ever be agreeable to me.

Also to note in FAllout 3, my close to evil Karma Wanderer, after engaging in a "Mass Emancipation" program, suddenly was good. If for no other reason slavers exist for target practice in games.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Costin why are you trying to justify slavery? Through history it has been one of the most dark and disgusting actions people have ever done. Simply put even my more aggresive or selfish charachters in any RPG go out of their way to kill slavers.

Great civilisations that we today admire have been built on the back of slaves. Yes, it might be ugly, but it can and did produce things worth admiring.

Hence why it is just fine if Ferelden remain "barbarian."

In your opinion.
I would rather have Ferelden become much more than it is.

@ Giggles.
I was not under the impression that slavery was legally banned in the Maurya Empire, although I do know that the caste system was discouraged, though not removed.
And slavery had always been practised in ancient Japan, they just never used foreign slaves.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 03 juin 2010 - 06:41 .

[Giggles_Manically]

In the Mauryan Empire under Ashoka, slavery that was introduced under the Aryan invaders to India was not like other forms. People were divided by caste, and by race with Aryans leading the race side of things, while Brahmins lead the caste side of things. Under Ashoka however he reformed India to be very equal and fair.

People where to be treated fairly and decently following the Jain faith that Ashoka adopted mid way through his life. If you want to look at good leaders, than Ashoka was the greatest builder, administrator, planner, and thinker of any early King or Emperor. It took until the invasions of Muslims under Al-adin-Khalji after 1000 CE for true slavery to be reintroduced under the Dehli-Sultunate. Also KoP you are right about Japan, but Korea never instituted slavery as an actual practice. Most Koreans found it abhorent and still do today. The only time in existed was when either the MOngols or Chinnese in the Han or Yuan dynasty took them over.

I am such a history nerd.

Modifié par Giggles_Manically, 03 juin 2010 - 06:52 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Giggles_Manically wrote...
I am such a history nerd.

I am too, though my knowldge about South and East Asia is sadly limited. But I do know about Ashoka.

I am not denying that Ashoka was a brilliant leader, but I am not sure he formally forbade slavery. Yes, he preached tolerance, equality and the like. But slavery was still existant, if perhaps subdued.

And there are many forms of slavery. Some of which I dislike, some of which I don't mind as much.

[Tirigon]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Broodmothers dude.´

Yes, but....

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Althought they are doing this to survive as a specie and not for sadistic pleasure.

You see? I doubt the chevaliers rape women to survive as species....

[Tirigon]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Rome played the biggest role ( along with Greece ) in shaping the entire world as we know it today.

Wouldn´t that make them disgusting bastards rather than admirable?

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Costin why are you trying to justify slavery? Through history it has been one of the most dark and disgusting actions people have ever done. Simply put even my more aggresive or selfish charachters in any RPG go out of their way to kill slavers.

Great civilisations that we today admire have been built on the back of slaves. Yes, it might be ugly, but it can and did produce things worth admiring.

Hence why it is just fine if Ferelden remain "barbarian."

In your opinion.
I would rather have Ferelden become much more than it is. 

So you approve of Howe's and Loghain's actions, then?  All in the name of progress?

[Lord Gremlin]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Tirigon wrote...
That is so because the "evil" guys don´t really do evil things. Orcs and Darkspawn, for example, never rape their victims and rarely / never torture them. They usually settle for simply killing, and you can hardly blame someone for that in a fight for life or death, right?

Broodmothers dude.

Althought they are doing this to survive as a specie and not for sadistic pleasure.

Broodmothers what? It appears that once they fully transformed they're quite happy with themselves. Look at Broodmother from Awakening. Of course she's a bit crazy and pissed off, but that's because she can't hear archdemon/old gods call anymore. 
Also, in Origins Darkspawn never attacked each other, no civil wars, nothing like that. Just another proof that Architect is the biggest douche in universe. He may be polite and intelligent, but he's still a douche.
In a way Architect is similar to Loghain, both decided that they know what's good for everybody and didn't give a **** about anything around them.  But while Loghain may acknowledge that he was wrong (he's not hopeless after all), Architect is a self-confident son of a B, who doesn't even consider the possibility of being wrong.

[Giggles_Manically]

If you really want to read about Slavery :Guns, Germs, and Steel is good

@KoP slavery didnt exist in early India like in other places, the caste system was very similar to it though. The lower castes of servants, or the casteless (dalits) did the work that slaves did in other cultures. Also Ashoka made you pay fines or suffer penalties if you were proven to be abusive to those who worked for you. He is famous for having answered a question put to him as to why he was so succesful and saying:



"I treat the smallest and least of my people like my own child, and so they treat me like a beloved father." Ashoka is flat out the greatest example leaders should strive for. Ackbar as well in the Mughal Empire is very similar to him.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

So you approve of Howe's and Loghain's actions, then?  All in the name of progress?

Howe, no, since he did nothing in the name of progress, but for his own personal greed.
Neither did Loghain do this in the name of progress, what he did was for the survival of his country. Which I believe was justified.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

So you approve of Howe's and Loghain's actions, then?  All in the name of progress?

Howe, no, since he did nothing in the name of progress, but for his own personal greed.
Neither did Loghain do this in the name of progress, what he did was for the survival of his country. Which I believe was justified.

You seriously, seriously believe his selling of elves to Tevinter blood mages is justifiable?  Seriously?  Leave aside the fact that it is immoral.  It is also illegal under Fereldan law.  And you want to hew the line in other circumstances (such as about a certain character's "desertion" though he breaks no laws by doing so), so please explain this discrepancy.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Giggles_Manically wrote...
"I treat the smallest and least of my people like my own child, and so they treat me like a beloved father." Ashoka is flat out the greatest example leaders should strive for. Ackbar as well in the Mughal Empire is very similar to him.

Similar to what Umar Ibn Al Khattab (RA) said:
"If a dog dies hungry on the banks of the River Euphrates, Umar will be responsible for dereliction of duty"

"I will be harsh and stern against the aggressor, but I will be a pillar of strength for the weak. I will not calm down until I will put one cheek of a tyrant on the ground and the other under my feet, and for the poor and weak, I will put my cheek on the ground. By God, he that is weakest among you shall be in my eye the strongest, until I have vindicated for him his rights; he that is strongest I will treat as the weakest, until he complies with the law."