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[Addai]

Finiffa wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

The question of whether the final battle at Ostagar could have been won and if Cailan and the Grey Wardens would have survived if Loghain had charged is simply one of those things that we will probably never know one way or the other. I think the we really are not supposed to know.

My problem with Loghain is not so much about whether the battle could be won or not. It is the fact that he frames the Grey Wardens for betrayal at Ostagar when in fact they battled hard and were all killed (except for the PC and Alistair ofc).  IF the battle at Ostagar was a lost cause because the amount of darkspawn showing was so much more then expected then why did he feel the need to frame the Grey Wardens? Why did he tell everyone they betrayed the king? To me it seems he wants to clear HIS conscious about it by laying the blame elsewhere. And since he ties the warden to Orlais......nice scapegoat found.... 

(Husband posting)

My Best Guesses

1) To save face as a national hero

2) to deal with any treason charges pre-emptively (sometimes the best defense is a good offense)

3) Because he believes the wardens are in cahoots with Orlai due to the number of Orlain wardens walking around and some events of the second DA book.

Modifié par Addai67, 04 juin 2010 - 09:46 .

[Xandurpein]

Tirigon wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

It may seem like knit picking to some, but to me there is a vast difference between arguing:

"Loghain is a jerk, because he he abandoned the King, and that is treason"

and

"I think that Loghain is a jerk, because I believe that abandoned the King, and that is treason to me."

The first sentence is claiming that something is an absolute truth without any support to prove it.  The second is stating an opinion and is a perfectly valid argument to me, even if I don't share the opinion fully.

Thing is, according to military law desertion IS treason, no matter what you think, even if the battle was unwinnable. The fact that this desertion got the king killed and resulted in a Civil War doesn´t really make it any better, either....

First of all it is nonsense to discuss military law in the first place as there really existed no such thing as a military law in the middle ages. But let's for the sake of argument assume that something like military law existed in Ferelden. Military law does not say that it is treason to order a retreat in the face of superior enemy, even if it contradicts orders.

History abounds with examples of officers who, cut off from communication with their superiors, ordered a retreat or even fled the field, in face of a superior enemy, and was not charged with treason for it. It is only on very rare occasions when such events led to charges of treason. More often than not, the survivors where hailed as heroes for salvaging something from the disaster.

Withdrawing from a battle that is deemed unwinnable is not desertion. Refusing to obey an order that is suicidal for no military gain is not desertion. It is true that in some countries there had been regimes that enforced draconic laws that ordered commanders to stay and die with their whole armies, at the risk of being shot, but on the whole they represent a minority and there is absolutly no reason to belive that Ferelden is among them.

Please do not make false claims about things you apparently don't know a lot about.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 04 juin 2010 - 10:24 .

[Xandurpein]

Finiffa wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

The question of whether the final battle at Ostagar could have been won and if Cailan and the Grey Wardens would have survived if Loghain had charged is simply one of those things that we will probably never know one way or the other. I think the we really are not supposed to know.

My problem with Loghain is not so much about whether the battle could be won or not. It is the fact that he frames the Grey Wardens for betrayal at Ostagar when in fact they battled hard and were all killed (except for the PC and Alistair ofc).  IF the battle at Ostagar was a lost cause because the amount of darkspawn showing was so much more then expected then why did he feel the need to frame the Grey Wardens? Why did he tell everyone they betrayed the king? To me it seems he wants to clear HIS conscious about it by laying the blame elsewhere. And since he ties the warden to Orlais......nice scapegoat found.... 

On the whole I agree with you. Loghain blaming the wardens appears to me to be mostly a rather crude attempt at a smear campaign. It's not nice, but this is a civil war and that is to be expected I suppose.

My whole point wasn't really about Loghain, but that I wish people in general could be better in separating facts from their opinions.

[Finiffa]

Addai67 wrote...

(Husband posting)

My Best Guesses

....

3) Because he believes the wardens are in cahoots with Orlai due to the number of Orlain wardens walking around and some events of the second DA book.

When he learns there are still wardens alive he hunts you down everywhere he can.
At the Landsmeet, before you duel him, he says something like: "Even if this is a blight who says we need wardens to defeat it".  So he
1) thinks wardens are Orlesians puppets
2) hasnt a clue and doesnt believe wardens are even needed to defeat a blight

Then your PC duels him and all of the sudden he changes his mind and wants to join the wardens to redeem himself. Thats some turnabout, certainly considering the Orlesian thing! This is why my PC doesnt believe him and kills him or let Alistair kill him. I do not believe that one as full of hate for Orlesians as Loghian would really do a 180 just because he looses a duel.

Modifié par Finiffa, 04 juin 2010 - 10:52 .

[Costin_Razvan]

He doesn't want to join the wardens.....Riordan suggests it and he accepts it, not that he has much choice at that point.

[sylvanaerie]

Finiffa wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

(Husband posting)

My Best Guesses

....

3) Because he believes the wardens are in cahoots with Orlai due to the number of Orlain wardens walking around and some events of the second DA book.

When he learns there are still wardens alive he hunts you down everywhere he can.
At the Landsmeet, before you duel him, he says something like: "Even if this is a blight who says we need wardens to defeat it".  So he
1) thinks wardens are Orlesians puppets
2) hasnt a clue and doesnt believe wardens are even needed to defeat a blight

Then your PC duels him and all of the sudden he changes his mind and wants to join the wardens to redeem himself. Thats some turnabout, certainly considering the Orlesian thing! This is why my PC doesnt believe him and kills him or let Alistair kill him. I do not believe that one as full of hate for Orlesians as Loghian would really do a 180 just because he looses a duel.

The whole Landsmeet and its aftermath was a let down for me.  I don't think it was well executed afterward.  I don't believe in the sudden reversal of opinion considering all this time he has been hellbent for the PC's demise.  There are too many dangling ends left for me to trust this man after all he has done and usually I just kill him.

I think he's incompetent as a general ignoring intelligence since he had scouts in the wilds who would have informed him of the numbers of the enemy or given him a rough idea they were overwhelmed (wow a battle 30 years ago...what did he do since? Umm Ostagar...yea that was  a resounding success), incompetent as a fighter (PC or any of his/her companions easily beats his butt in a duel), and untrustworthy (has been after the PC to kill him/her since day one and STILL believes that the PC is Orlesian despite evidence to the contrary...can we say crazy much?).  

I hear he regrets what he has done at the point the AD needs killing but frankly I think its more a matter of (Like Isolde) he doesn't want to live with the consequences of what he has done and prefers to die a hero than to live with his actions. Too little, too late.  Try telling that to Bann Wulff and the people who have lost loved ones in Ostagar and across the entire nation he left open for the Darkspawn to overrun.  His behavior in the landsmeet (casting blame anywhere but on himself, and shrieking everyone else are traitors) just emphasizes that for me.  He was a general and accountability demands that he take responsibility for his actions instead of pointing blame (to the Wardens he abandoned to die, for Howe's crimes done with his complicity, the slave trade which is illegal by Ferelden law etc).  Part of being a general also means accepting responsiblity for the actions of your subordinates.

If I were to let him live, and not take the DR I would die myself and force him to rebuild the Wardens.  In that he may have some redemption but he won't get a hero's end, he doesn't deserve it after all the harm he did to his 'beloved Ferelden'.

[Costin_Razvan]

I think he's incompetent as a general ignoring intelligence since he had scouts in the wilds who would have informed him of the numbers of the enemy or given him a rough idea they were overwhelmed

Are you being stupid, or just pretending to ignore Cailan refused to listen to Loghain? Now one thing is to say Ostagar could be won, and wasn't because of Loghain, another is to suggest Loghain didn't want to retreat and really wanted to murder Cailan.

By all means, believe in that logic of yours.

And no he doesn't change his opinion. He was defeated and made a warden, he had no choice in that matter.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 04 juin 2010 - 11:41 .

[sylvanaerie]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

I think he's incompetent as a general ignoring intelligence since he had scouts in the wilds who would have informed him of the numbers of the enemy or given him a rough idea they were overwhelmed

Are you being stupid, or just pretending to ignore Cailan refused to listen to Loghain?

And no he doesn't change his opinion. He was defeated and made a warden, he had no choice in that matter.

And yet he went right on with the battle didn't he? Frankly I think his plan was to kill the GW's (in his mind Orlesians). His only argument was he didn't want Cailan on the front lines or are you just stupid or pretending to ignore he didn't want reinforcements there to handle the numbers of the enemy?

[Xandurpein]

sylvanaerie wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

I think he's incompetent as a general ignoring intelligence since he had scouts in the wilds who would have informed him of the numbers of the enemy or given him a rough idea they were overwhelmed

Are you being stupid, or just pretending to ignore Cailan refused to listen to Loghain?

And no he doesn't change his opinion. He was defeated and made a warden, he had no choice in that matter.

And yet he went right on with the battle didn't he? Frankly I think his plan was to kill the GW's (in his mind Orlesians). His only argument was he didn't want Cailan on the front lines or are you just stupid or pretending to ignore he didn't want reinforcements there to handle the numbers of the enemy?

He wanted to wait for the reinforcements from Redcliff, but Cailan did not want to wait. So Cailan baited him with the possibilites of reinforcements from Orlais instead to goad him into accepting battle.

Loghain said he wanted to wait for the forces from Redcliff. Cailan then said, fight with me now or I'll let the Orlesians enter our country, knowing exactly how Loghain flet about that. Then Loghain tried to make the King at least stay out of the front lines himself, but Cailan refused. So in the end Loghain let Cailan have his glorious death and left.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 04 juin 2010 - 11:50 .

[sylvanaerie]

Xandurpein wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

I think he's incompetent as a general ignoring intelligence since he had scouts in the wilds who would have informed him of the numbers of the enemy or given him a rough idea they were overwhelmed

Are you being stupid, or just pretending to ignore Cailan refused to listen to Loghain?

And no he doesn't change his opinion. He was defeated and made a warden, he had no choice in that matter.

And yet he went right on with the battle didn't he? Frankly I think his plan was to kill the GW's (in his mind Orlesians). His only argument was he didn't want Cailan on the front lines or are you just stupid or pretending to ignore he didn't want reinforcements there to handle the numbers of the enemy?

He wanted to wait for the Reinforcements from Redcliff, but Cailan did not want to wait.

I never heard Loghain say anything about Redcliffe only about not wanting Cailan on the front lines but then considering his man Jowan had already poisoned Eamon those weren't going to come anyway.  It was Duncan who brought up bringing the troops from Redcliffe.

[Costin_Razvan]

And yet he went right on with the battle didn't he?

As Tirigon so eloquently put it, refusing to obey an order by your monarch, ( no matter the reason ) is capital treason.

The FACT of the matter is that we have both Cailan's and Loghain's guards telling you that the teryn and king have been arguing, we have a guard telling you that military units are coming in from the countryside ( as in he was gathering Ferelan's army together ). He refused to wait for the Orlesians....not that they would have arrived to fight in time anyway, unless they retreat, and somehow I refuse to believe Cailan would have retreated anyway.

 It was Duncan who brought up bringing the troops from Redcliffe.

And it was Cailan, not Loghain, who refused to wait. Meanwhile Loghain was gathering troops from the country ( as I said above ).

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 04 juin 2010 - 11:51 .

[nos_astra]

Xandurpein wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

I think he's incompetent as a general ignoring intelligence since he had scouts in the wilds who would have informed him of the numbers of the enemy or given him a rough idea they were overwhelmed

Are you being stupid, or just pretending to ignore Cailan refused to listen to Loghain?

And no he doesn't change his opinion. He was defeated and made a warden, he had no choice in that matter.

And yet he went right on with the battle didn't he? Frankly I think his plan was to kill the GW's (in his mind Orlesians). His only argument was he didn't want Cailan on the front lines or are you just stupid or pretending to ignore he didn't want reinforcements there to handle the numbers of the enemy?

He wanted to wait for the Reinforcements from Redcliff, but Cailan did not want to wait.

Oh, and he would have waited in vain because of the poisoning of Arl Eamon. He must have known there wouldn't be any reinforcements. I wonder why he suggested this ... if he did.

Modifié par klarabella, 04 juin 2010 - 11:52 .

[nos_astra]

jsr24 wrote...
Umm he was arguing with Cailan the whole time, and most of the camp at Ostagar felt that Loghain did not think the battle would go well, but Cailan pressed on. Cailan even pulled the "Remember who is King card". Not to mention Loghain had to shape his whole battle plan around the Grey Wardens and Cailan being in the front lines because Cailan insisted not that he had malicious intents of killing them.

But this could be have been very well about "this is not a Blight" and "we don't have an heir yet".

And there's this talk about the Tower of Ishal. People think it's strange that it is closed off and wonder why that is. And if you have enough cunning you can ask Alistair (while you're fighting your way through to the beacon) if someone could have lead the darkspawn there.

Modifié par klarabella, 04 juin 2010 - 12:01 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Cailan believed it was a Blight? I must have played a different game then! Cause I distinctly remember Cailan saying he did NOT believe it was one. ( and in fact was disappointed by that )

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 04 juin 2010 - 11:56 .

[nos_astra]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
Cailan believed it was a Blight? I must have played a different game then! Cause I distinctly remember Cailan saying he did NOT believe it was one.

No, he said to Duncan he wasn't sure if this was a true Blight but he obviously considered the possibilty it was one.
Loghain didn't believe it was a Blight until the very end.

Cailan was right, Loghain was wrong.

Modifié par klarabella, 04 juin 2010 - 12:00 .

[sylvanaerie]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

And yet he went right on with the battle didn't he?

As Tirigon so eloquently put it, refusing to obey an order by your monarch, ( no matter the reason ) is capital treason.

The FACT of the matter is that we have both Cailan's and Loghain's guards telling you that the teryn and king have been arguing, we have a guard telling you that military units are coming in from the countryside ( as in he was gathering Ferelan's army together ). He refused to wait for the Orlesians....not that they would have arrived to fight in time anyway, unless they retreat, and somehow I refuse to believe Cailan would have retreated anyway.

 It was Duncan who brought up bringing the troops from Redcliffe.

And it was Cailan, not Loghain, who refused to wait. Meanwhile Loghain was gathering troops from the country ( as I said above ).

]
Loghain gathered the banns and troops AFTER the fight not before.  I don't remember hearing anything about him getting reinforcements.

[Xandurpein]

klarabella wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

I think he's incompetent as a general ignoring intelligence since he had scouts in the wilds who would have informed him of the numbers of the enemy or given him a rough idea they were overwhelmed

Are you being stupid, or just pretending to ignore Cailan refused to listen to Loghain?

And no he doesn't change his opinion. He was defeated and made a warden, he had no choice in that matter.

And yet he went right on with the battle didn't he? Frankly I think his plan was to kill the GW's (in his mind Orlesians). His only argument was he didn't want Cailan on the front lines or are you just stupid or pretending to ignore he didn't want reinforcements there to handle the numbers of the enemy?

He wanted to wait for the Reinforcements from Redcliff, but Cailan did not want to wait.

Oh, and he would have waited in vain because of the poisoning of Arl Eamon. He must have known there wouldn't be any reinforcements. I wonder why he suggested this ... if he did.

Fair enough, it was Duncan who brought up Redcliff soldiers. My mistake. Cailan still refused to listen to it. But there is no reason to suppose that Redcliff soldiers had to stay in barracks, just because Eamon was sick. Teagan colud have led them to battle if needed. Eamon was poisoned to be out of the picture for Loghain to make some sort of coup against Cailan. That is not the same as planning to slaughter the whole royal army.

[nos_astra]

Xandurpein wrote...
Teagan colud have led them to battle if needed. Eamon was poisoned to be out of the picture for Loghain to make some sort of coup against Cailan. That is not the same as planning to slaughter the whole royal army.

Isolde send them out to seek the urn, didn't she? It's a bit unclear and the timeline is messy but I wasn't under the impression Redcliffe soldiers were on their way to Ostagar.

[Costin_Razvan]

Loghain gathered the banns and troops AFTER the fight not before. I don't remember hearing anything about him getting reinforcements.

Then perhaps you should check before making false statements.



Copied from Toolset ( and yes it is used in the game, by the guard at the gate from where you enter Ostagar the first time ).



Guard: Today, two units of men arrived every hour, and they expect to double that tomorrow. Still, the teyrn worries that may not be enough. ( VO: worried )

[sylvanaerie]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Loghain gathered the banns and troops AFTER the fight not before. I don't remember hearing anything about him getting reinforcements.

Then perhaps you should check before making false statements.

Copied from Toolset ( and yes it is used in the game, by the guard at the gate from where you enter Ostagar the first time ).

Guard: Today, two units of men arrived every hour, and they expect to double that tomorrow. Still, the teyrn worries that may not be enough. ( VO: worried )

I stand corrected thank you for pointing that out to me.  I didn't make a false statement though, I just said I dont' remember not that there wasn't one.

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 04 juin 2010 - 12:05 .

[Xandurpein]

sylvanaerie wrote...

Loghain gathered the banns and troops AFTER the fight not before.  I don't remember hearing anything about him getting reinforcements.

It was Duncan who suggested waiting for reinfocements from Redcliff. Cailan clearly didn't want to wait. He wanted his battle right away. Cailan saying they might as well wait for the Orlesians can only be undestood as an attempt to bait Loghain into giving battle now, as far I can see. Redcliff is a lot closer than Orlais.

As far as I know, Loghain's last sinister words about "there will be plenty of honour, for us all" (or something like that) can just as well be interpreted as him thinking, "You are all dead becuase of your stupid king. Well, I'm sure as hell not going to die with you too."

[sylvanaerie]

Xandurpein wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...

Loghain gathered the banns and troops AFTER the fight not before.  I don't remember hearing anything about him getting reinforcements.

It was Duncan who suggested waiting for reinfocements from Redcliff. Cailan clearly didn't want to wait. He wanted his battle right away. Cailan saying they might as well wait for the Orlesians can only be undestood as an attempt to bait Loghain into giving battle now, as far I can see. Redcliff is a lot closer than Orlais.

As far as I know, Loghain's last sinister words about "there will be plenty of honour, for us all" (or something like that) can just as well be interpreted as him thinking, "You are all dead becuase of your stupid king. Well, I'm sure as hell not going to die with you too."

LOL yea my thought at that point was "this can only end in tears"

[Costin_Razvan]

It is strange what you can learn from the toolset....apparently originally at Ostagar Loghain was supposed to flank the Darkspawn with a force of cavalry, they changed that afterwards.

But at any rate..there is no comment in the toolset about that last line. I was hoping there would be something. His last words are: "Yes, Cailan. A glorious moment for us all."

I dunno, but I can say that Cailan died like the idiot he is....Duncan died with glory, as far as glorious deaths go anyway.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 04 juin 2010 - 12:18 .