240 réponses à ce sujet

[sylvanaerie]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

It is strange what you can learn from the toolset....apparently originally at Ostagar Loghain was supposed to flank the Darkspawn with a force of cavalry, they changed that afterwards.

But at any rate..there is no comment in the toolset about that last line. I was hoping there would be something. His last words are: "Yes, Cailan. A glorious moment for us all."

I dunno, but I can say that Cailan died like the idiot he is....Duncan died with glory, as far as glorious deaths go anyway.

I know they have horses in Ferelden.  Bann Alfstanna's family has a long tradition of gifting one to each King when he is crowned. I wonder why they never even showed any just standing there in camp?  Frankly it would have made for one helluva dramatic battle scene if some of the footmen in the army had actually been calvary instead.

Ah well we do get the scene with the mabari warhounds and they are pretty wicked little battlers.

[Costin_Razvan]

If one ignores the incredible stupidity of sending them so far ahead of the main force in a charge....

Would have liked cavalry myself. Can't figure out what's so incredibly difficult about adding it to the game.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 04 juin 2010 - 12:24 .

[sylvanaerie]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

If one ignores the incredible stupidity of sending them so far ahead of the main force in a charge....

Would have liked cavalry myself. Can't figure out what's so incredibly difficult about adding it to the game.

*nod* I love horses and we don't even see them standing around just being horses.

[Xandurpein]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

If one ignores the incredible stupidity of sending them so far ahead of the main force in a charge....

Would have liked cavalry myself. Can't figure out what's so incredibly difficult about adding it to the game.

Actually, sending the mabari warhounds first as in the cut scene is one of the few scenes that do make a certain amount of sense from a military point od view.

A huge mass of warriors can generate a charge that can break through the line of a thinner defending force, by sheer impetus. Once the initial charge is over and it is down to hand to hand fighting, the additional ranks of soldiers behind the first becomes far less important. It is therefore important for the defending force to break the impetus of the enemy's charge. One of the best known example of this is the roman infantry that used throwing spears (pilum) to break the impetus of charging barbarian hordes.

The Ferelden mabari seems to fill the same role. They are sacrificed (more or less) to break the impetus of the enemy charge so the enemy then hit the main lines in a far more disorganized way.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 04 juin 2010 - 01:53 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Xander, that is true enough. However, given the distance the darkspawn are from the main army, it's just a waste to send the hounds then.



I would have sent them at about the same moment Cailan orders the main army to charge, would have been much more effective.

[Tirigon]

Xandurpein wrote...

First of all it is nonsense to discuss military law in the first place as there really existed no such thing as a military law in the middle ages. But let's for the sake of argument assume that something like military law existed in Ferelden. Military law does not say that it is treason to order a retreat in the face of superior enemy, even if it contradicts orders.

History abounds with examples of officers who, cut off from communication with their superiors, ordered a retreat or even fled the field, in face of a superior enemy, and was not charged with treason for it. It is only on very rare occasions when such events led to charges of treason. More often than not, the survivors where hailed as heroes for salvaging something from the disaster.

Withdrawing from a battle that is deemed unwinnable is not desertion. Refusing to obey an order that is suicidal for no military gain is not desertion. It is true that in some countries there had been regimes that enforced draconic laws that ordered commanders to stay and die with their whole armies, at the risk of being shot, but on the whole they represent a minority and there is absolutly no reason to belive that Ferelden is among them.

Please do not make false claims about things you apparently don't know a lot about.

Better heed that advice yourself, because apparently you know less than me....

Cailan was king, he made the decision to fight, and Loghain AGREED!! - even though reluctantly. That means, abandoning the king and a big part of the army IS desertion, period.

If Loghain had said in the meeting before the battle that he sees no point in dying here and therefore will retreat, then it would be different. But encouraging the battle plan and then abandoning it is cowardly and treacherous.

[Tirigon]

Finiffa wrote...


Then your PC duels him and all of the sudden he changes his mind and wants to join the wardens to redeem himself. Thats some turnabout, certainly considering the Orlesian thing! This is why my PC doesnt believe him and kills him or let Alistair kill him. I do not believe that one as full of hate for Orlesians as Loghian would really do a 180 just because he looses a duel.

He doesn´t want to join. He realizes that it´s a punishment. Actually, when you talk with him later and say that you don´t believe he´s a monster he will tell you that you´re a bad liar (what sucks, btw - why should it be impossible to RP a character who likes Loghain?), and when you say you recruited him to give him a chance to make things right he is quite surprised.

I get the feeling Loghain realizes his faults better than some of those who defend him.

[Addai]

Xandurpein wrote...
Loghain said he wanted to wait for the forces from Redcliff. Cailan then said, fight with me now or I'll let the Orlesians enter our country, knowing exactly how Loghain flet about that. Then Loghain tried to make the King at least stay out of the front lines himself, but Cailan refused. So in the end Loghain let Cailan have his glorious death and left.

If he had left before the battle, this logic would hold up to exonerate Loghain somewhat.  Instead, he himself executed the battle plan and pulled out at the last minute when the entire king's army- not only Cailan- was counting on him to flank.

People are using the honor guard in RtO as defense of Loghain, but that honor guard also says that he fled when he saw Loghain's troops retreating instead of attacking.

All of this is really moot.  Loghain has a whole list of things for which he deserves execution, and Ostagar is only one of them.

[Costin_Razvan]

Xander has the right of it, Tirigon.

Today, if Loghain had done what he did at Ostagar, then he could explain his case in face of a military court and be pardoned.

The problem with what he did in a Medieval Era fantasy, is that disobeying the king is treason, but that does not have anything to do with the military law or anything.

 If he had left before the battle, this logic would hold up to exonerate Loghain somewhat.  Instead, he himself executed the battle plan and pulled out at the last minute when the entire king's army- not only Cailan- was counting on him to flank.

Exonerate him in the eyes of the player, maybe, in the eyes of the nobles? Not going to happen. In fact far more would be asking for his head for it.

People use the honor guard in RtO, what Duncan himself hints at, and what several people in the camp say.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 04 juin 2010 - 02:50 .

[Addai]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

@jsr24, while I do agree with you the Alistairites do not and shall descend upon us. There posts will blot out the sun.

I realize you're joking, but for the record, if there were no such character as Alistair in the game, it wouldn't change my opinion on Loghain a bit.  It simply makes it easier to get along with Alistair at the end of the game that I happen to agree with him strongly enough that Loghain always gets his head lopped off.

[Giggles_Manically]

Cailan was an immature spolied, and arrogant noble who refused to see the truth. He believed in legends and glory, when Both Duncan and Loghain the two best leaders and fighters he had urged caution before the battle. Even if the battle could have been won Cailan would have probably been so blinded by "winning" an epic battle that he would have just screwed Ferelden over more in the long run.

[Costin_Razvan]

By all means Addai, continue telling us that Alistair doesn't impact your decision about Loghain, maybe one day we will believe it.

[Tirigon]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Cailan believed it was a Blight? I must have played a different game then! Cause I distinctly remember Cailan saying he did NOT believe it was one. ( and in fact was disappointed by that )

This is true.

however, according to one of the letters in RtO Cailan KNEW he was going to die because Ostagar was unwinnable and still fought because he had some odd plan that made this sacrifice worthwhile.

I wonder what this is supposed to mean, because we sure as hell don´t see anything pointing to this theory in the game.


To be frank, I think RtO totally contradicts everything we learn in the vanilla game, and we have either a case of too much content being cut, thus making whatever story is behind it incomprehensible, or a case of epic fail by the writers.

[Tirigon]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Xander has the right of it, Tirigon.

Today, if Loghain had done what he did at Ostagar, then he could explain his case in face of a military court and be pardoned.

The problem with what he did in a Medieval Era fantasy, is that disobeying the king is treason, but that does not have anything to do with the military law or anything.

Well maybe "military law" was the wrong word, but as you say, disobeying the king is treason.

And to be honest,, I doubt any military court of today would pardon a general whose retreat causes the death of the King / President / whoever rules in the country and is commander of all forces at the same time.

[Costin_Razvan]

Why does RtO totally contradicts everything we learn from vanilla? We certainly have people telling us Cailan was a fool, and we have people telling us that Ostagar was not winnable. ( Cauthrien, Loghain, Anora ), obviously some people don't really give a **** about what they think, but the fact of the matter is that what they say shouldn't be dismissed.

 And to be honest,, I doubt any military court of today would pardon a general whose retreat causes the death of the King / President / whoever rules in the country and is commander of all forces at the same time.

If he points that the ruler was a complete fool who refused to listen to strategy, and then shows that the battle could not be won, given what he was facing, then yes he would be pardoned.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 04 juin 2010 - 02:58 .

[Addai]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

By all means Addai, continue telling us that Alistair doesn't impact your decision about Loghain, maybe one day we will believe it.

Too bad for you that I could care less what you believe. 

[Tirigon]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

By all means Addai, continue telling us that Alistair doesn't impact your decision about Loghain, maybe one day we will believe it.

You should not assume everyone decides based on Alistair. Sure some people do, and I, too, would find it easier to spare Loghain either if it wouldn´t mean betraying your oldest ally and fellow Warden, but it´s surely that´s not the only reason.

[Costin_Razvan]

but it´s surely that´s not the only reason.

Nor was I saying it was, but to state that Alistair does not play a role when he clearly does, then well...



Addai: The feeling is mutual.

[Tirigon]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Why does RtO totally contradicts everything we learn from vanilla? We certainly have people telling us Cailan was a fool, and we have people telling us that Ostagar was not winnable. ( Cauthrien, Loghain, Anora ), obviously some people don't really give a **** about what they think, but the fact of the matter is that what they say shouldn't be dismissed.

Well Loghain himself admits that he says what is best to get his will, not always what he believes. Only because Loghain knows he needs to convince people he was right if he wants a chance to win the Landsmeet doesn´t mean he actually thinks so.

And he tells that Anora is even more a politician than he is. After all, she can even accept marrying Alistair (whom she thinks a fool) and the death of her father if it means that she stays in power, and on the other hand she´s ready to ally with Loghain if she believes that this is in her advantage. She doesn´t say what´s true but what´s best for her political advantage.

Modifié par Tirigon, 04 juin 2010 - 03:02 .

[Addai]

jsr24 wrote...

If Cailan's most trusted guard says he thinks the battle is not winnable who can we believe? The whole camp felt like they were going to lose except Cailan, and then Cailan admits to his #1 guard he expects defeat.

Where do you get this?  The early battles had all been going well and I don't recall anyone saying that they thought they would lose.  Cailan's guard does ask you if you think it's possible the Blight can be defeated in one great battle, and there's the raving guy talking about the darkspawn corruption, but who else said they were going to lose?

I think you're putting too much stock in the bit from RtO.  Even if we assume the writing is not fubar, we have no idea the timeline.  Cailan could have decided based on last-minute scouting reports that the battle was not likely to go well.  There's no indication prior to your Joining that it won't.

[Xandurpein]

Tirigon wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Xander has the right of it, Tirigon.

Today, if Loghain had done what he did at Ostagar, then he could explain his case in face of a military court and be pardoned.

The problem with what he did in a Medieval Era fantasy, is that disobeying the king is treason, but that does not have anything to do with the military law or anything.

Well maybe "military law" was the wrong word, but as you say, disobeying the king is treason.

And to be honest,, I doubt any military court of today would pardon a general whose retreat causes the death of the King / President / whoever rules in the country and is commander of all forces at the same time.

Again you base your whole argument on pure assumption. You assume that Cailan could have been saved and the battle won if Loghain had charged. There is simply no proof to support that theory. It is equally possible that even if Loghain had charged, Cailan would still have died and all the men of Gwaren too.

[Swoo]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

By all means Addai, continue telling us that Alistair doesn't impact your decision about Loghain, maybe one day we will believe it.

Alistair does for me, and I'm not even an Ali-Fanboy or whatever they would be called.

The Loghain choice is such a difficult decision to make, which is a bow and thank you towards the Bioware writers I suppose. I kill him everytime, and everytime I wish I had a better out to let him live.

He did horrible things, but as Awakenings tried to show, and History has shown, sometimes horrible things have to be done to survive. The question is, there is always a line, and did he cross that point and go beyond the 'Making the bad, hard choice for the greater good' to 'This is just evil. Wake up, see what you are doing.'.

And although Darkspawn Chronicles is in no way Canon, didn't Loghain charge and support Calian and get wiped out? I think Calian and Loghain both realised the fight was lost the moment the Horde came out of the woods, the difference was Calian refused to be seen as cowardly or weak and decided to fight anyway, Loghain decided it was better to run and live to win the war later on.

That's a hard one to come to a solid conclusion to who is 'right'; Fighting on no matter the odds to at least buy time for the cavalry (so to speak) to gather and defend the Kingdom, or to split and regroup and try again at a later date. I would think pretty much any military strategist would agreee Loghain's decision was the right one, but just about anyone with a heart would say that you don't abandon your King and half your men without at least trying to save some of them.

Modifié par Swoo, 04 juin 2010 - 08:28 .

[nos_astra]

Swoo wrote...
... didn't Loghain charge and support Calian and get wiped out?

There's no mentioning at all about what Loghain did or did not. It's a wild guess from Loghain fans to prove their point.