240 réponses à ce sujet

[Addai]

(Husband posting)

 He wanted to wait for the reinforcements from Redcliff, but Cailan did
not want to wait. So Cailan baited him with the possibilites of
reinforcements from Orlais instead to goad him into accepting battle.

Loghain
said he wanted to wait for the forces from Redcliff. Cailan then said,
fight with me now or I'll let the Orlesians enter our country, knowing
exactly how Loghain flet about that. Then Loghain tried to make the
King at least stay out of the front lines himself, but Cailan refused.
So in the end Loghain let Cailan have his glorious death and left.

The problem is doesn't this happen around the same time as his attemp to poison Eamon?   (While a formal chronology isn't given it would make sense there is some lag time needed to get that plot going).   IF so they shouldn't he have realized that might delay the troops?    And the same goes if the poisioning happened later that would just be another delay to compound things.   

It seems like he was somehow relying on luck (not a mark of great general).   That the poisoning would only make Eamon sick.    And that Bann Teagan or  Ser Perth would immediately assume command and would muster the troops to Ostagar without delay but also somehow not being let in on Eamon's plans and secrets regarding Cailan, Orlai etc.

[Addai]

jsr24 wrote...

Cailan was bluffing Loghain with the Orlesians because we learn in RtO that the Empress Celene can't even begin to send out her army until Cailan returns her letters. The only reinforcements would of been Redcliffe or Rendon Howe's men.

(husband posting)

But that is a Retro con on the order of other kind of bad or less than optimal Revisitionist history.


It really doesn't make sense when you go back and replay the game with that in mind.   (Cailan putting himself on the front line even though he has no aires and succession could throw the country in a civil war.   Cailan not wanting to do some other common sense strategy like a war of attrition with hit and tactics.   Cailan lulling his troppos in a false sense of security etc.    Occams's razor is really against this explanation).


I will also point out some other Retrocon that don't give with the original.    Eamon has no problem with Allistair marrying Anora.   IF RTO is cannon and in the author's mind at the time of the story why doesn't he hem-and-hah over that potential landsmeet solution?


And another one is "Wynn the sex offender."    RTO wasn't done by the main writters, and I don't think its that well thought out.

Modifié par Addai67, 04 juin 2010 - 11:34 .

[Addai]

(concerning Cailan's "bravado" that he knew Ostagar was a hopeless batle)

(husband posting)

But that is a Retro-con on the order of other kind of bad or less than optimal Revisitionist history.


It really doesn't make sense when you go back and replay the game with that in mind.   (Cailan putting himself on the front line even though he has no aires and succession could throw the country in a civil war.   Cailan not wanting to do some other common sense strategy like a war of attrition with hit and tactics.   Cailan lulling his troops into a false sense of security etc.    Occams's razor is really against this explanation!   Cailan really must be a bard of the first order to pull off that kind of convincing acting job.).


I will also point out some other Retrocon that don't give with the original.    Eamon has no problem with Allistair marrying Anora.   IF RTO is cannon and in the author's mind at the time of the story why doesn't he hem and hah over that potential landsmeet solution?


And another one is "Wynn the sex offender."    RTO wasn't done by the main writters, and I don't think its that well thought out.


 

Modifié par Addai67, 04 juin 2010 - 11:32 .

[Addai]

Tirigon wrote...

To be frank, I think RtO totally contradicts everything we learn in the vanilla game, and we have either a case of too much content being cut, thus making whatever story is behind it incomprehensible, or a case of epic fail by the writers.

 

(Husband posting)


I'm glad someone agrees with me.   :0   Like I say bad Retrocon.

Modifié par Addai67, 04 juin 2010 - 11:29 .

[Tirigon]

klarabella wrote...

Swoo wrote...
... didn't Loghain charge and support Calian and get wiped out?

There's no mentioning at all about what Loghain did or did not. It's a wild guess from Loghain fans to prove their point.

Even if that was the case, it would simply mean that in the "real" world where the Warden wins Loghain´s charge would have been successful.

[Ash Wind]

Swoo wrote...

I think Calian and Loghain both realised the fight was lost the moment the Horde came out of the woods, the difference was Calian refused to be seen as cowardly or weak and decided to fight anyway, Loghain decided it was better to run and live to win the war later on.

I could not disagree with that more. The one and only reason Howe moves on Highever is because he already knows Cailan will not survive Ostagar to exact justice. The King’s death has already been premeditated. There is no denying the look on Loghain’s face at the end of the War Council Meeting; Cailan will die.

It’s quid pro quo between Howe and Loghain. You support me when I kill the king and in return I turn a blind eye to your brutal invasion of Highever and will give you Denerim if we can kill its Arl in the process.

Now, had Cailan somehow survived Ostagar, I have no doubts Loghain would have zero problems throwing Howe under the bus, or chariot as it were, but going in the plan before the battle is clear.

I’ve always killed Loghain. I have let him live only 2 times, and that was to see how things played out.

Modifié par Ash Wind, 05 juin 2010 - 01:53 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ash Wind, your theory has already been refuted by David Gaider as false. Loghain never planned for the Couslands to die, nor did he know anythign about it until it happened.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 05 juin 2010 - 01:53 .

[Costin_Razvan]

klarabella wrote...

Swoo wrote...
... didn't Loghain charge and support Calian and get wiped out?

There's no mentioning at all about what Loghain did or did not. It's a wild guess from Loghain fans to prove their point.

A wild guess based upon the fact we see Howe and Cauthrien there. Cauthrien might be persuadable by the warden to stand down, but I refuse to believe Alistair could persuade her.

I also somehow refuse that Alistair made a deal with Howe when Howe was working for Loghain.

 RTO wasn't done by the main writters, and I don't think its that well thought out.

Perhaps so, but it is cannon. Adding more plot holes, but it's there.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 05 juin 2010 - 02:26 .

[Ash Wind]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ash Wind, your theory has already been refuted by David Gaider as false. Loghain never planned for the Couslands to die, nor did he know anythign about it until it happened.

I haven’t seen that quote, if I see it then that will absolve Loghain as co-conspirator in the attack on Highever. Nothing else.

If Howe acts on his own, why at this point in time? You could say because Cousland answers the King’s call and Highever is defenseless. That’s only an answer only for the moment. Why does he believe there will be no future repercussions to his actions?

Cailan promises to the Warden after the battle to move his army north and bring Howe to justice. Does Howe believe his little army can match Cailin’s assembled army? Not realistically, in any sense of the word. So why does he feel enabled?

Loghain doesn’t believe this is a Blight (his words to Anora) and reports from the front is that the battles are going well. Despite this news, Howe is going to take a huge chance on the possibility Cailan will die? Not a chance, I don’t see that in his character, he’s no riverboat gambler. He’s cold, calculating  and methodical.

So why does he think his invasion has long-term viability?

As Loghain’s right hand man, he already knows it’s been decided, one way or the other, Cailan is not surviving Ostagar.

Modifié par Ash Wind, 05 juin 2010 - 02:58 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

It's in the Complete Loghain defense thread that is months old, where David Gaider absolved Loghain from the Cousland massacre. I am too lazy to find it for you.

As for why Howe thinks he can escape reprocussion is because it's like Duncan said. Had he succeeded in killing everyone in Castle Cousland, Cailan would have never known and Howe would have told him any story he wished. Cailan being the half wit that he is, will probobly just accept what Howe is saying and go back fighting dragons in his sleep.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 05 juin 2010 - 03:04 .

[CalJones]

Here's the thread: http://social.biowar...83297/18#591250



That's the start of DG's comments. You'll have to find the one relating to the Cousland (but it's an interesting read anyway).

[KnightofPhoenix]

If memory serves, I don't think it was actually Gaider who posted it, but someone who posted his PMs with Gaider in that thread regarding the issue. I don't know if Gaider re-mentions it directly.

[Costin_Razvan]

At least we have moved on from people calling him completely insane, as they did a few months back.

[Swoo]

KoP basically hit all the points I would have a few posts up.



Howe had a murderous horde of fall-guys walking through the countries front door, and took his shoot at a little family revenge and improved station. If he would have gotten a blade into each Cousland, he would have gotten away with it too. (Resisting..cliched...joke...)



Loghain was basically forced into an alliance with Howe. Losing half his forces when that tactical genius offspring of Maric charged out of a G-D bottleneck, and then having the Bannorn tell him to ****** off at the Landsmeet, he had to take whatever help he could get. A psychopathic, greedy little git that had a bunch of land, titles, money, and was willing to do whatever it took to keep himself alive and ahead was something he couldn't refuse. Without Howe, Loghain and Anora quite literally could have found themselves deposed.

[Ash Wind]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

It's in the Complete Loghain defense thread that is months old, where David Gaider absolved Loghain from the Cousland massacre. I am too lazy to find it for you.

As for why Howe thinks he can escape reprocussion is because it's like Duncan said. Had he succeeded in killing everyone in Castle Cousland, Cailan would have never known and Howe would have told him any story he wished. Cailan being the half wit that he is, will probobly just accept what Howe is saying and go back fighting dragons in his sleep.

A great aspect of this story/game are the story angles and subplots open to be debated, for every ying… there is an opposing yang.

Cailan is indeed a half-wit and that we can agree on.

And Duncan does use those words. I always thought it was a bit of a lame statement, but say, Cailan would be dumb enough to believe whatever story Howe comes up with. First question is, regardless of his story why would that necessitate that Howe would somehow be entitled to keep Highever by default?

This is further complicated by the survival of Fergus Cousland.

If Cailan survives Ostagar and Fergus emerges from the Wilds, regardless of Howe’s story, Fergus’ claim to Highever trumps (in every possible way) any claim that Howe might have.

If Cailan’s survival is not an issue in Howe’s move on Highever, then Howe absolutely must have Fergus killed to eliminate any legitimate claim by him. He knows Fergus will not be in Highever when his troops arrive, and yet he apparently makes no provision for Fergus’ death. So, again part of his master plan is to cling to a weak hope that Fergus may get killed at Ostagar? I’m not buying that.

It makes more sense to me that he makes no provision for Fergus’ death for one reason. The one person in the land with the authority and the army to kick him out of Highever isn’t going to survive Ostagar, regardless how the battle fares. If Loghain is in charge, he gets to keep Highever in exchange for his support and if Fergus reappears, he’d probably be labeled as an Orlesian Sympathizer and executed.

Modifié par Ash Wind, 05 juin 2010 - 08:21 .

[Xandurpein]

Ash Wind wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

It's in the Complete Loghain defense thread that is months old, where David Gaider absolved Loghain from the Cousland massacre. I am too lazy to find it for you.

As for why Howe thinks he can escape reprocussion is because it's like Duncan said. Had he succeeded in killing everyone in Castle Cousland, Cailan would have never known and Howe would have told him any story he wished. Cailan being the half wit that he is, will probobly just accept what Howe is saying and go back fighting dragons in his sleep.

A great aspect of this story/game are the story angles and subplots open to be debated, for every ying… there is an opposing yang.

Cailan is indeed a half-wit and that we can agree on.

And Duncan does use those words. I always thought it was a bit of a lame statement, but say, Cailan would be dumb enough to believe whatever story Howe comes up with. First question is, regardless of his story why would that necessitate that Howe would somehow be entitled to keep Highever by default?

This is further complicated by the survival of Fergus Cousland.

If Cailan survives Ostagar and Fergus emerges from the Wilds, regardless of Howe’s story, Fergus’ claim to Highever trumps (in every possible way) any claim that Howe might have.

If Cailan’s survival is not an issue in Howe’s move on Highever, then Howe absolutely must have Fergus killed to eliminate any legitimate claim by him. He knows Fergus will not be in Highever when his troops arrive, and yet he apparently makes no provision for Fergus’ death. So, again part of his master plan is to cling to a weak hope that Fergus may get killed at Ostagar? I’m not buying that.

It makes more sense to me that he makes no provision for Fergus’ death for one reason. The one person in the land with the authority and the army to kick him out of Highever isn’t going to survive Ostagar, regardless how the battle fares. If Loghain is in charge, he gets to keep Highever in exchange for his support and if Fergus reappears, he’d probably be labeled as an Orlesian Sympathizer and executed.

Did you read D Gaiders post? Loghain didn't plan to leave Cailan to die. He didn't make up his mind until he saw the horde before him.

D Gaider says that Loghain believed that the charge would fail when he saw the size of the horde, but it may be that he just convinced himself it was so, because he wanted Cailan stopped. Loghain made the decision to leave Cailan right there on the battlefield, saying anything else and you claim D Gaider is wrong.

[Ash Wind]

CalJones wrote...

Here's the thread: http://social.biowar...83297/18#591250

That's the start of DG's comments. You'll have to find the one relating to the Cousland (but it's an interesting read anyway).

Thanks for finding that. I always enjoy seeing those sort of ‘behind the scenes’ things in the creative process.

That said, his words don’t sway me in the least.

I wouldn’t put too much stock in what writers say about their own characters, as hard to believe as that may be. Characters are peculiar things that oft times grow beyond their writer. Notice how the character’s creator, (Gaider) says things like “I ‘think’ he would…” Think?! You’re the writer, don’t you know? They often view their own characters differently and don’t see their creations (just like any artist) in the same ways many others see them. Case in point: Darth Vader.

I forget which CD it appears on, but in the director’s commentary of one of the Star Wars films, George Lucas talks about Star Wars Episode IV A New Hope’s Darth Vader, where he states he was never meant to be the ‘terror of the universe’ that he ultimately became, he was supposed to be a weak and pathetic character who gets pushed around by bureaucrats. Almost everyone who saw SW when it was originally released (pre episodes I, II & III) will tell you that Vader was just about the Baddest Ass they every saw in film (debate his competence and effectiveness all you want, but you cannot deny his voracity and ruthlessness). GL saw a completely different character than many people. There is no right and wrong answer, its subjective… but I will say it’s a simple fact that Weak and Pathetic villains do not go down in film history like DV has.

A character is what a character does, not what its creator hopes it is.

The writer of Friday the 13th can tell me until he’s blue in the face that ‘Jason’ is a misunderstood fella with a heart of gold and just has empathy issues…. Screw that… I see a machete wielding psychopath whose hobby is lopping heads.

I cannot, and will not, try to debate what is going on inside DG’s head nor how he chooses to answer a post on any given day. I can only base my judgments on what I see in DA. You can pull all the quotes you want, if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and walks like a duck… it’s a duck, even if the writer tells me it’s a monster truck.

Whether its:
Bad Writing…
Bad Directing…
Bad Execution…
Or simply different subjective opinions of the same event…

I see little of the Loghain in that post in the game at the battle of Ostagar. I see a man who’s ominous demeanor at the end of the war council meeting betrays the fact that he has something dire pre-planned. I see a man who is deeply satisfied when he orders the retreat, sealing the fate of all in that valley. I see a man who sacrifices a chunk of the Army Regulars in the hopes that the ensuing chaos and fear will cause the nobility to turn to the Hero of River Dane and give him carte blanche to do anything he wants.

But… that’s just me lol

Modifié par Ash Wind, 05 juin 2010 - 08:50 .

[nos_astra]

Ash Wind, marry me.

[Tirigon]

Xandurpein wrote...


Did you read D Gaiders post? Loghain didn't plan to leave Cailan to die. He didn't make up his mind until he saw the horde before him.

D Gaider says that Loghain believed that the charge would fail when he saw the size of the horde, but it may be that he just convinced himself it was so, because he wanted Cailan stopped. Loghain made the decision to leave Cailan right there on the battlefield, saying anything else and you claim D Gaider is wrong.

Gaider also said Loghain expected "a showdown" between him and Cailan, that means Loghain clearly planned to overtake the country, even if he didn´t plan to do so by leaving Cailan to die at Ostagar.

[Tirigon]

Ash Wind wrote...

I see little of the Loghain in that post in the game at the battle of Ostagar. I see a man who’s ominous demeanor at the end of the war council meeting betrays the fact that he has something dire pre-planned. I see a man who is deeply satisfied when he orders the retreat, sealing the fate of all in that valley. I see a man who sacrifices a chunk of the Army Regulars in the hopes that the ensuing chaos and fear will cause the nobility to turn to the Hero of River Dane and give him carte blanche to do anything he wants.

But… that’s just me lol

I agree. I, too, often thought that what Gaider and others say contradicts what we see in the game.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Even if Loghain had nothing to do with the attack on Highever, he still elevates Howe--even after learning the truth from the Human Noble. :/



"Ooh, let's trust an arl who stabbed his BFF in the back and tried to murder his entire family!"

[Costin_Razvan]

I agree. I, too, often thought that what Gaider and others say contradicts what we see in the game.

That is based on perception..however how a person can perceive a character despite how the author envisioned that specific character is not the same as saying that certain things ( such as Loghain not knowing about Howe ) did not happen, in fact it's completely different.

Even if Loghain had nothing to do with the attack on Highever, he still elevates Howe--even after learning the truth from the Human Noble. :/

He used Howe as a political ally, from that to trust is a long road. Indeed from what Anora tells us, Loghain did not trust or like Howe, although he was influenced by him.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Even if Loghain had nothing to do with the attack on Highever, he still elevates Howe--even after learning the truth from the Human Noble. :/

He used Howe as a political ally, from that to trust is a long road. Indeed from what Anora tells us, Loghain did not trust or like Howe, although he was influenced by him.

I guess Howe knew how to play him pretty well then. :/

Despite what Loghain does or does not do (eg. sanctioning the Cousland massacre, premeditating Cailan's death), he does a very good job of keeping his hands clean.