240 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

We are not saying that David Gaider's comments have any significance for an in-game experience, as much of what he said is unknown to us players (just like in reality where our knowledge of things is extremily limited). However from an out-game perspective, Gaider's comments trump eveything you say. He, as the writer, is the only one who can give a description of what is going on in Loghain's head, and definately not you or me. So yes, Gaider's comments are canon and to not take them into account is just arrogance. Again, not saying it should influence your in-game playthrough and perspective. But out-game, his word is law, regardless of you think it's bad writing (which I htink it's not).

As for Fergus and Howe. Howe could have very easily had him assassinated before, during or after the battler. I am sure he had it planned out. Howe did not know Cailan was going to die, and Loghain did not decide to leave Cailan to die until Ostagar (he planned for it should it become necessary)..

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 05 juin 2010 - 04:41 .

[sylvanaerie]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Loghain gathered the banns and troops AFTER the fight not before. I don't remember hearing anything about him getting reinforcements.

Then perhaps you should check before making false statements.

Copied from Toolset ( and yes it is used in the game, by the guard at the gate from where you enter Ostagar the first time ).

Guard: Today, two units of men arrived every hour, and they expect to double that tomorrow. Still, the teyrn worries that may not be enough. ( VO: worried )

This dialogue isn't triggering under any of the conversation options given me by this guard (this is the one you can ask about Ostagar and the layout of the different parts of the camp right)? or is it a different guard?

[Costin_Razvan]

Turn back the way you came, and next to the tower of Ishal Guard and Gate, there is another one from where you come in. The guard near THAT gate gives that line.

[sylvanaerie]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Turn back the way you came, and next to the tower of Ishal Guard and Gate, there is another one from where you come in. The guard near THAT gate gives that line.

thanks!  Found him.  LOL No wonder I never heard this before that was the first time I talked to him!  No cutscene or anything it was one of those floating dialogues!

[KnightofPhoenix]

Hanz54321 wrote...
So you are are saying that you can't dictate imagination but you can.  This is probably the most politically written post of all the things I've read from you Knight.  You cover your back side by saying no one can dictate in game experience, but then you reveal your true position by all but saying Gaider's Word is law.

"and to not take them (Gaider's descriptions) into account is just arrogance".

You've written a very carefully worded post.

I personally take what everyone says into account.  Whether it influences my opinions or role playing depends on strength of the discussion and appeal.  So in that respect sure I take the man's writing into account.  Absolutely.  I guess I'm cleared of being arrogant.

But do I feel bound by what he says?  No.  Any time someone publishes something they open their publication to interpretation.  I would contend that to tell others who purchased thispublication that they must think and interpret exactly as the author did is arrogance.  But you already covered that by stating "we are not saying that David Gaider's comments have any significance for an in game experience."

So ultimately we agree.  I just found what you wrote and how you wrote it very interesting and discussion worthy.

I was very specific in what I said.

In-game, you are not bound by Gaider's comments at all and your character can believe that Loghain planned for this all along and that he wanted to kill Cailan. Your character can believe that Loghain conspired to kill the Couslands...etc. And you wouldn't be wrong in-game, as there is no evidence to prove your beliefs wrong.

However, if from an out-game perspective you say "I know Loghain killed the Couslands" instead of "My character believes Loghain killed the Couslands" , then you would be wrong as the writer said he did not. And since he determines what is factual and what is not, then we are bound to it, but solely out-game. No one can say "It's a fact Loghain killed the Couslands", as the writer said as a matter of fact that he didn't. 

But you can say "My character believes Loghain did it" and it would be a valid position, as sadly we can't even ask Loghain about the Couslands.

[Ash Wind]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

We are not saying that David Gaider's comments have any significance for an in-game experience, as much of what he said is unknown to us players (just like in reality where our knowledge of things is extremily limited). However from an out-game perspective, Gaider's comments trump eveything you say. He, as the writer, is the only one who can give a description of what is going on in Loghain's head, and definately not you or me. So yes, Gaider's comments are canon and to not take them into account is just arrogance. Again, not saying it should influence your in-game playthrough and perspective. But out-game, his word is law, regardless of you think it's bad writing (which I htink it's not).

As for Fergus and Howe. Howe could have very easily had him assassinated before, during or after the battler. I am sure he had it planned out. Howe did not know Cailan was going to die, and Loghain did not decide to leave Cailan to die until Ostagar (he planned for it should it become necessary)..

No, they don't.

We'll agree to disagree.

Any form of creative endeavor is judged by the final product. Not the final product, plus any addendum by the writer after the fact.

Oh, I thought you're movie was a piece of crap, but now that you explained what you had hoped to show in the character, I will disavow what you DID show in the movie. Masterpiece! No.

[Ash Wind]

klarabella wrote...

Ash Wind, marry me.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ash Wind wrote...
No, they don't.

We'll agree to disagree.

Any form of creative endeavor is judged by the final product. Not the final product, plus any addendum by the writer after the fact.

Oh, I thought you're movie was a piece of crap, but now that you explained what you had hoped to show in the character, I will disavow what you DID show in the movie. Masterpiece! No.

All movies have director commentary that explain what they had in mind in each scene. Yes, they are canon.

It's not like Gaider changed anything in the game to conform to his view (like the Han Solo shot first incident, in which case I would be in complete agreement with you). He is saying the story as he thought of it, and he is the lead writer. Our characters can't know this, but we as players can and yes what he says is canon, whether we like it or not.

You can still think Origins is a piece of crap for not explaining it to you, just like you can think Loghain is a piece of crap character because he wasn't explained enough, but Gaider's comments are still canon regardless. Out-game, they should not be ignored becuase they don't fit our in-game perspective.  

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 05 juin 2010 - 05:29 .

[Herr Uhl]

Ash Wind wrote...

We'll agree to disagree.

Any form of creative endeavor is judged by the final product. Not the final product, plus any addendum by the writer after the fact.

Oh, I thought you're movie was a piece of crap, but now that you explained what you had hoped to show in the character, I will disavow what you DID show in the movie. Masterpiece! No.

It does not change the product. But if we are going to have a discussion about his motivations etc. in a objective sense, not a subjective one Gaider actually saying that Loghain didn't know about it is all that I need.

That it isn't clear from the beginning is either on purpose because they want to leave things up to interpretation, or it's simply bad storytelling.

And your analogy isn't apt.

[Xandurpein]

When a developer designs a game. They devise a plot of detailing what actually happens in the game. Then they decide what the player would be able to see of this.

A roleplaying experience is supposed to be only what us as one of the persons participating in the story would know, not the actual full truth of what every character sees and thinks. To use Kantian terms we can only see the shadow, while the developer can see the real object.

We can, based on the shape of the shadow, which is all we can see, make an educated guess on how the real object looks like. But there are still many possible shapes that can give the same shadow.

If a developer says that this is how the real object looks like then we have no reason to disbelieve this, unless they claim that the real object looks like something that simply could not ever leave the shadow we see.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 05 juin 2010 - 05:51 .

[Addai]

I accept what Gaider said about Loghain not knowing of the Cousland massacre or helping to plot it.  Gaider is the Maker, what else can you do?

However, as even Bann Sighard says in his Gnawed Noble gossip, it is too great a coincedence for anyone in-game to believe that there was no plot to take out the king and the most powerful royalists in the country all at once.  And since Loghain planned the poisoning of Eamon and then embraces Howe as his right-hand man, he assures that it's his own petard doing the hoisting on that point.  At the very least, he approves of it after the fact.  When he announces Howe as Teyrn of Highever to my PC's face, that pretty much seals his fate in my HN games.

Modifié par Addai67, 05 juin 2010 - 06:00 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

A valid position Addai. Certainly not the only valid position out there.

[Xandurpein]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

A valid position Addai. Certainly not the only valid position out there.

I agree. I can perfectly understand anyone who roleplay a human noble who decides that Loghain is responsible for everything from Cailan's death to the massacre on the Couslands and consequently thinks that Loghain absolutly must die for there to be any kind of justice in the world.

But I can also roleplay a human noble, who with good intention make a completely different choice. That is the beauty of the game. We can see things very differently, without either view being the only "right" or "good" choice.

[Ash Wind]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ash Wind wrote...
No, they don't.

We'll agree to disagree.

Any form of creative endeavor is judged by the final product. Not the final product, plus any addendum by the writer after the fact.

Oh, I thought you're movie was a piece of crap, but now that you explained what you had hoped to show in the character, I will disavow what you DID show in the movie. Masterpiece! No.

All movies have director commentary that explain what they had in mind in each scene. Yes, they are canon.

It's not like Gaider changed anything in the game to conform to his view (like the Han Solo shot first incident, in which case I would be in complete agreement with you). He is saying the story as he thought of it, and he is the lead writer. Our characters can't know this, but we as players can and yes what he says is canon, whether we like it or not.

You can still think Origins is a piece of crap for not explaining it to you, just like you can think Loghain is a piece of crap character because he wasn't explained enough, but Gaider's comments are still canon regardless. Out-game, they should not be ignored becuase they don't fit our in-game perspective.  

The thread with the aforementioned DG Loghain quote has 1,675 views. Now I am not even going to take into consideration multiple posts or multiple views. We’ll say 1,675 people saw that quote.  As of April, 2010, DA had sold 3,200,000 units.
 
Quick math tells you that 1,675 saw and could evaluate that quote, while 3,198,325 never knew that quote existed.
 
So… if you never know that quote exists, what is the only way for those 3,198,675 players to formulate an opinion of Loghain’s actions at Ostagar? The only way is by what happens in the Game.
 
Cannon that is known only to 0.0005% of the players does little more than provide unique trivia questions, it can be considered cannon, but if it conflicts with the game, then ultimately what is the point of playing the game when anything and everything you form an opinion on can be invalidated by a 30 second forum post?
 
My viewpoint:  If you want something to matter to me, then put it in the games, not in the forums. DG can say anything he wants in the forums, but if it's viewed by 0.0005% of players and if it’s not reflected in the games, its little more than empty words.

Modifié par Ash Wind, 05 juin 2010 - 10:39 .

[Tirigon]

Ash Wind wrote...

 
My viewpoint:  If you want something to matter to me, then put it in the games, not in the forums. DG can say anything he wants in the forums, but if it's viewed by 0.0005% of players and if it’s not reflected in the games, its little more than empty words.

Tis true.

If Gaider wanted his words to be canon he could have implemented in the game or at least in a codex entry....

[Herr Uhl]

Ash Wind wrote...

The thread with the aforementioned DG Loghain quote has 1,675 views. Now I am not even going to take into consideration multiple posts or multiple views. We’ll say 1,675 people saw that quote.  As of April, 2010, DA had sold 3,200,000 units.
 
Quick math tells you that 1,675 saw and could evaluate that quote, while 3,198,325 never knew that quote existed.
 
So… if you never know that quote exists, what is the only way for those 3,198,675 players to formulate an opinion of Loghain’s actions at Ostagar? The only way is by what happens in the Game.
 
Cannon that is known only to 0.0005% of the players does little more than provide unique trivia questions, it can be considered cannon, but if it conflicts with the game, then ultimately what is the point of playing the game when anything and everything you form an opinion on can be invalidated by a 30 second forum post?
 
My viewpoint:  If you want something to matter to me, then put it in the games, not in the forums. DG can say anything he wants in the forums, but if it's viewed by 0.0005% of players and if it’s not reflected in the games, its little more than empty words.

That is life, so many opinions and theories of mine have been overturned by simple things. Like Santa not existing.

And are you are saying that truth is a thing based on what the majority perceives?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ash Wind wrote...
The thread with the aforementioned DG Loghain quote has 1,675 views. Now I am not even going to take into consideration multiple posts or multiple views. We’ll say 1,675 people saw that quote.  As of April, 2010, DA had sold 3,200,000 units.
 
Quick math tells you that 1,675 saw and could evaluate that quote, while 3,198,325 never knew that quote existed. 
 
So… if you never know that quote exists, what is the only way for those 3,198,675 players to formulate an opinion of Loghain’s actions at Ostagar? The only way is by what happens in the Game.
 
Cannon that is known only to 0.0005% of the players does little more than provide unique trivia questions, it can be considered cannon, but if it conflicts with the game, then ultimately what is the point of playing the game when anything and everything you form an opinion on can be invalidated by a 30 second forum post?
 
My viewpoint:  If you want something to matter to me, then put it in the games, not in the forums. DG can say anything he wants in the forums, but if it's viewed by 0.0005% of players and if it’s not reflected in the games, its little more than empty words.

It's irrelevent whether many people know it or not. The fact remains that Gaider's words are canon. And they do not conflict the game. No where does it explictly validate your theories about Loghain (nor are they explicitly disproven). As such they remains theories in-game, which you are entitled to have in-game, and out-game they are proven to be false.

You may dislike it. You may believe that DA is crap for not spoon feeding you the story. It will not change the fact his words are canon however and what the majority thinks is irrelevent in this.

If you can't accept that, then there is no objective reference point for us to agree with, thus any further discussion is pointless. Hence, I don't see any point at all in discussing theories that are factually false.  It's a sad waste of time.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 06 juin 2010 - 01:04 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Tirigon wrote...

Ash Wind wrote...

 
My viewpoint:  If you want something to matter to me, then put it in the games, not in the forums. DG can say anything he wants in the forums, but if it's viewed by 0.0005% of players and if it’s not reflected in the games, its little more than empty words.

Tis true.

If Gaider wanted his words to be canon he could have implemented in the game or at least in a codex entry....

Just like in real life, where we can't know everything, likewise our characters in DA can't know everything.

To want your character to know every single thing, and reject anything that doesn't fit in your character's narrow viewpoint, is just laughable.

The only objective reference point is Gaider and the rest of the writers. What they say is factual, even if our characters can't know it. To fail to distinguish between out-game knowledge and in-game, makes any serious discussion impossible. 

So you can whine all you want and try to fit Loghain into pre-concieved theories that are not proven in the game I might add. It will not change the fact that anything contradicting Gaider's words is false, period (and he was not a jerk about it, he revealed little and allowed room for interpretation).  

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 06 juin 2010 - 01:10 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Give up, KtP I think you've convinced the people who are willing to entertain the fact that Loghain might not be *directly* responsible for everything, even if the game never point-blank tells you so.

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 06 juin 2010 - 02:13 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Neither does the game point blank tells us the contrary.

I just see no point at all in any discussion, if the only objective refference point we have, which is the writers, is dismissed as "empty words".

[Addai]

I see little of the Loghain in that post in the game at the battle of Ostagar. I see a man who’s ominous demeanor at the end of the war council meeting betrays the fact that he has something dire pre-planned. I see a man who is deeply satisfied when he orders the retreat, sealing the fate of all in that valley. I see a man who sacrifices a chunk of the Army Regulars in the hopes that the ensuing chaos and fear will cause the nobility to turn to the Hero of River Dane and give him carte blanche to do anything he wants.

But… that’s just me lol


(Husband posting)

And this is called by TV Tropes "The Devil in plain sight"

tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DevilInPlainSight