194 réponses à ce sujet

[SuperMedbh]

Cheese Elemental wrote...

Are these forums like this all the time?

Unfortunately, no.  We need more of this sort of levity    It probably says something when a good number of people actually thought she was serious.  Then again, I got that on my "Alistair for ME3 LI thread", so I suppose I ought not be surprised.

(although I think Ecael does make her point, in addition to being funny)

Modifié par SuperMedbh, 03 juin 2010 - 05:23 .

[Helena Tylena]

I think it all boils down to what you think defines a good RPG. To me leveling up, learning new skills, obtaining new gear, etc aren't good RPG elements. Don't get me wrong, they're great *game* elements, and I love these elements, but I don't think they're essential to make a good RPG, and having them doesn't automatically mean your game is an RPG. Assassin's Creed 2, for example, had some of these elements (mainly the gearing up), but I can't for the life of me classify AC2 as an RPG.

No, what really defines an RPG for me is the way the story is presented, and more specifically the amount of (percieved) control the player has over the story. Character development only contirbutes to a game being an RPG if the player can control the character's personality. Pokemon is great in char development, the later versions litterally having hundreds of possible characters for you to develop, but nothing you do, none of the choices you make alters the story in any meaningful way. The choice between a male or a female character in the later games adds flavour, but that's about it.

I think when analyzing a game, it's important to make a difference between story (plot, characters, setting, etc) and gameplay (mainly combat). To me it's the story that decides if a game is an RPG, while gameplay decides how the RPG is played. Games like pokemon feel like an RPG because they have typical JRPG-style combat, but the story is set, fixed, cannot be altered. Therefor Pokemon isn't a true RPG in my books (same for WoW, for example), while Mass Effect is.

Still, a very interesting read, and some good points.

[Tooneyman]

Pokemon and Mass effect. Go Tali, Go!

[Ecael]

Jackal904 wrote...

Are you seriously comparing Mass Effect to Pokemon? Seriously? I hope it was sarcasm. One giant sarcastic rant. If it's serious, I'm not even sure what to make of it.

The suggestions are serious, the comparison is not.

Well, mostly not serious. Pokémon is still the most successful RPG of all time.

Helena Tylena wrote...

No, what really defines an RPG for me is the way the story is presented, and more specifically the amount of (percieved) control the player has over the story. Character development only contirbutes to a game being an RPG if the player can control the character's personality. Pokemon is great in char development, the later versions litterally having hundreds of possible characters for you to develop, but nothing you do, none of the choices you make alters the story in any meaningful way. The choice between a male or a female character in the later games adds flavour, but that's about it.

I think when analyzing a game, it's important to make a difference between story (plot, characters, setting, etc) and gameplay (mainly combat). To me it's the story that decides if a game is an RPG, while gameplay decides how the RPG is played. Games like pokemon feel like an RPG because they have typical JRPG-style combat, but the story is set, fixed, cannot be altered. Therefor Pokemon isn't a true RPG in my books (same for WoW, for example), while Mass Effect is.

Still, a very interesting read, and some good points.

It's really just semantics in the end. When games go on sale or get reviewed, they do need to be categorized into a certain genre - for Pokémon, it's defined as a console-based J-RPG, but it's still an RPG.

I do agree with you that a true RPG focuses on the amount of control you have over your character. However, I do not believe the story itself can define it as an RPG. There are many non-RPGs with good storylines, and many RPGs with bad storylines. They are still defined as such, however.

Modifié par Ecael, 03 juin 2010 - 06:04 .

[Clover Rider]

Man I love Pokemon most fun RPG games you can get.

[Helena Tylena]

Ecael wrote...


I do agree with you that a true RPG focuses on the amount of control you have over your character. However, I do not believe the story itself can define it as an RPG. There are many non-RPGs with good storylines, and many RPGs with bad storylines. They are still defined as such, however.

Maybe I mis-spoke. I did mean that character control and interactivity with the plot are what make RPGs, but this is part of the 'story' half in which I separate my games (with plot being one factor, setting and characters being several others). In other words it is this 'story' half (through interactivity) that decides if a game is an RPG or not.

But I see that on the base-line we agree. Awesome.

[SuperMedbh]

Well, I grew up playing Magic the Gathering, myself



Bottom line, in any artistic endeavor, genre is simply a label for marketing. This is not to dismiss the need for that label; consumers want to have an idea about what they're getting. If you went to a restaurant called "Jim's Barbecue" and discovered that the menu was filled with salad after salad, you would be ticked. It wouldn't matter if they were terrific salads, nor would you be assuaged when the waiter pointed out that there was a bottle of BBQ sauce on the table.



The problem with the label "RPG" in the gaming industry is that it's ill defined. Some gamers think of a specific type of environment and mechanics, and others think of it as a story driven game. I think the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. Heavy Rain isn't an RPG-- at least for now. Is "Adventure Quest" an RPG (a rather linear, 2D click and kill the monsters game)? Right now, I think yes. But in the future, perhaps Heavy Rain (and the non-combat missions ME2) will fit our notion of what an RPG is better than AQ.

[Ecael]

Helena Tylena wrote...

Ecael wrote...


I do agree with you that a true RPG focuses on the amount of control you have over your character. However, I do not believe the story itself can define it as an RPG. There are many non-RPGs with good storylines, and many RPGs with bad storylines. They are still defined as such, however.

Maybe I mis-spoke. I did mean that character control and interactivity with the plot are what make RPGs, but this is part of the 'story' half in which I separate my games (with plot being one factor, setting and characters being several others). In other words it is this 'story' half (through interactivity) that decides if a game is an RPG or not.

But I see that on the base-line we agree. Awesome.

Ah, I gotcha.

Also, your name rhymes!

[Jackal904]

Ecael wrote...

Jackal904 wrote...

Are you seriously comparing Mass Effect to Pokemon? Seriously? I hope it was sarcasm. One giant sarcastic rant. If it's serious, I'm not even sure what to make of it.

The suggestions are serious, the comparison is not.

Well, mostly not serious. Pokémon is still the most successful RPG of all time.

MW2 is the most successful FPS of all time. Do you want every FPS to be just like MW2? I didn't think so.

[nikki191]

wow i dont know honestly what to say apart from realise i am getting really old.. pokemon was an annoying kids cartoon and a kids toy that i had to deal with when i baby sat my friends kids haha



i did get to learn more about what it actually is though which i guess is a good thing

[Helena Tylena]

Ecael wrote...

Also, your name rhymes!

Yeah, that's one of the more unfortunate side-effects I discovered after creating it...

[Ecael]

Jackal904 wrote...

Ecael wrote...

Jackal904 wrote...

Are you seriously comparing Mass Effect to Pokemon? Seriously? I hope it was sarcasm. One giant sarcastic rant. If it's serious, I'm not even sure what to make of it.

The suggestions are serious, the comparison is not.

Well, mostly not serious. Pokémon is still the most successful RPG of all time.

MW2 is the most successful FPS of all time. Do you want every FPS to be just like MW2? I didn't think so.

http://social.biowar...91290/3#2795189

Modifié par Ecael, 03 juin 2010 - 07:22 .

[Cra5y Pineapple]

I f*cking hate Pokemon. The only reason people like it is because it's a "classic." So many bad games use this excuse (ex. Mario, Sonic).



I think ME is fine the way it is. It's somewhere inbetween RPG and Shooter. I prefer it that way.

[TelexFerra]

Massadonious1 wrote...

ShamieGTX wrote...

Congratulations Kaidan Evolved Into Jacob.... TinTunTunTanananaNA!!

Wouldn't that be "de"evolving?

SOCIAL DARWINIST!

[Ecael]

Jackal904 wrote...

Ecael wrote...

Jackal904 wrote...

Are you seriously comparing Mass Effect to Pokemon? Seriously? I hope it was sarcasm. One giant sarcastic rant. If it's serious, I'm not even sure what to make of it.

The suggestions are serious, the comparison is not.

Well, mostly not serious. Pokémon is still the most successful RPG of all time.

MW2 is the most successful FPS of all time. Do you want every FPS to be just like MW2? I didn't think so.

Actually, scratch that, Half-Life 2 and its multiplayer mods consist of the most successful FPS of all time. And it's being released on the Mac, which will boost sales even further:

Link - 2008

"Combined, the published retail figures [for Half-Life 2] total 32.8 million units sold -- 36.4 million to 36.7 million if Left 4 Dead projections are included."

Link - 2010

"Activision have confirmed that Call Of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 has sold over 14 million copies worldwide and brought the company almost £665m in revenue."

The problem with Valve is that they don't like to release their sales figures from Steam. Since that article is from 2008 and it's being released on the Mac, Half-Life 2 sales (along with its re-released version of The Orange Box) should be over 40 million by now.

Modifié par Ecael, 03 juin 2010 - 07:25 .

[Jestina]

They have action RPG's now...which is basically RPG's for dummies. That's technically what ME2 is categorized as.

Modifié par Jestina, 03 juin 2010 - 08:29 .

[RyuGuitarFreak]

LOL. Pokemon is such an awesomeness. Shepard should start catching monster now. Starting by a thresher maw.

[Sailears]

Well the combat drone sort of reminds me of a pokeball.
Chiktikka I choose you!

[Jestina]

A pokemon game using creatures and races from the ME universe would be funny.

[Helena Tylena]

Funnier than a Mass Effect game using creatures and races from pokemon, that's for sure.

[CmdrFenix83]

Well and this is all well and good if that's what you're looking for in your games. Personally the 'label' of RPG means nothing more to me than being able to play the role of Commander Shepard.



They said from the beginning that this was a hybrid of the RPG and shooter genre. I couldn't care less if that mean 1% shooter/99% RPG or 99% shooter/1% RPG as long as the game is fun.

[Ecael]

Jestina wrote...

A pokemon game using creatures and races from the ME universe would be funny.

Didn't someone post a Tali Pounce Pokémon picture once?

[Bluko]

Ecael wrote...

Bluko wrote...

Personally I find turn-based combat silly. I don't see how combat can be exciting or fun if you can sit around picking your nose while deciding what attack to use.

Isn't that what pause is for in BioWare games?

True, true. But any game that doesn't let you pause isn't a very good game. Hence why I find the design of MMOs so terrible. All games should let you pause at any moment, even during cutscenes. Been too many times where somebody renegade interupts me while playing Mass Effect or another game, and I either miss most of the conversation or don't get to see a cutscene.

Basically I just don't like "waiting my turn" in a game to chop someone's head off or bash their head in. I can live with attack speeds and such. But standing in a line letting the enemy hit you and going "Please sir may I have another!" isa bit too polite even for me.

[Ecael]

Bluko wrote...

True, true. But any game that doesn't let you pause isn't a very good game. Hence why I find the design of MMOs so terrible. All games should let you pause at any moment, even during cutscenes. Been too many times where somebody renegade interupts me while playing Mass Effect or another game, and I either miss most of the conversation or don't get to see a cutscene.

Basically I just don't like "waiting my turn" in a game to chop someone's head off or bash their head in. I can live with attack speeds and such. But standing in a line letting the enemy hit you and going "Please sir may I have another!" isa bit too polite even for me.

I've played a few of the games from the Final Fantasy series, and I agree with you - turn-based definitely takes some of the fun out of combat.

Blizzard should implement a pause button in World of Warcraft for the next April Fools Day, especially for battlegrounds and raids. Hilarity would ensue.