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[Galagraphia]

Sialater wrote...

Just brace yourselves for the trolls: ewwwww you love a cannibal!

Trolling is a verbal cannibalism. If people do it, they have no right to judge 

Hm, Anders makes an interesting addition to the lore. I started to suspect that becoming abomination is only lethal because of the templars since Maric and Duncan and other wardens saved Fiona and she changed back into herself. And now it seems like Anders can control his transformations. And this all again makes me think that Harrowing is something completely unnecessary. Because even if you become possessed, you can try to fight it or others can go to the Fade and help you. That is what young mages must be taught, I think. How to resist and fight  demons, not how to be scared of them to death.
I think I'm ready to join Anders' rebellion  Almost. Don't follow people who are blinded by strong emotions, this leads to the Dark side. 

Edit: haven't seen this one in ages:

by VelvetRue

Modifié par Galagraphia, 16 février 2011 - 06:09 .

[snarkycleric]

Galagraphia wrote...

Because even if you become possessed, you can try to fight it or others can go to the Fade and help you.

I wonder how many of the people in the Tower actually know that or think that way, though? Certainly not the Templars (if you fail your Harrowing, off with your head!), and it did require a lot of mages just to get enough power to send one mage into the Fade to rescue Connor from the desire demon. And of course there's no guarantee that the mage who goes in will come out okay. I also imagine fighting it requires plenty of willpower which not all mages have. (I'm assuming Anders does have it, of course.) I figure for most of the people in there it's safer and more practical to kill the possessed mage rather than help him/her to fight it or go to the Fade to bail them out.

That is what young mages must be taught, I think. How to resist and fight demons, not how to be scared of them to death.

Not that I'm disagreeing with this...

Modifié par snarkycleric, 16 février 2011 - 06:27 .

[Galagraphia]

@snarkycleric, well, Irving knew. Jowan knew, I think I've read somewhere that PC knows too. If you can send 1 mage to the Fade to be harrowed, you can send them there to save another mage as well.

[Sialater]

Ah... but do you really want to save such a weak willed mage? Who will be demon fodder the rest of their lives? [/devil's advocate]

[Sarah1281]

It's not just a cost of lyrium, though. Think about all the damage that Connor did before dealing with his possession. The one good thing about the Harrowing (and I think we're all well aware of the bad, including the fact that it's unlikely that every mage will have a demon try to forcibly possess them) is that when those possessions happen they are not given an opportunity to hurt anyone and are quickly neutralized. I just really hope that Mouse was lying about mages who haven't gotten possessed being killed for taking too long. What's it matter if it takes an hour or a day to NOT get possessed as long as the possession doesn't happen.



Harrowings are useful in that they know that every Harrowed mage is at least capable of resisting forcible possessions (unless first going through a lot of torture) but it would probably be improved if they had a team of Harrowed mages ready to jump in and save the apprentice should they fail. It would take a lot of expensive lyrium I'm not sure the Chantry would agree to and the mage would still need to learn how to pass it but it seems a lot more humane than the instant kill method they currently use.

[snarkycleric]

@Galagraphia: Not saying it's impossible - hey, if I can save the mage, I'd rather save the mage (I can never bring myself to just solve the Connor issue by killing him), but just wondering how practical it really is for them to say 'Well, we can help save abominations'. As pointed out, Connor did a lot of damage before he was rescued, and if the Tower hadn't been so badly affected by Uldred's uprising the PC might never have been able to persuade them to save his life.

@Sarah: I hope Mouse was lying, too.

Modifié par snarkycleric, 16 février 2011 - 06:42 .

[cmessaz]

Yeah, I hope mouse was lying but I doubt it tbh.



Well, can you save an abomination? I mean those that are twisted in flesh as well, I would imagine not. Connor was just possessed...just a matter of being able to retain ones sanity while being occupied by a spirit/demon. I think the mages who have become possessed to the point they lost their sanity can't be saved, but those like Connor, can be. Gah, I know what I'm trying to say but I fail at posting it...

[snarkycleric]

cmessaz wrote...

Well, can you save an abomination? I mean those that are twisted in flesh as well, I would imagine not. Connor was just possessed...just a matter of being able to retain ones sanity while being occupied by a spirit/demon. I think the mages who have become possessed to the point they lost their sanity can't be saved, but those like Connor, can be

I think it's in a conversation with Wynne, actually. (And it's my fault for using the word 'abomination' - I actually do think there's a distinction between abomination and possession. Sorry!) You can tell her that mages aren't abominations until they've lost their reasoning/sanity, I think. I generally don't remember my conversations with Wynne. So I would imagine those completely driven insane are those you can't save, since you have to have something to save in the first place, yeah. Connor had moments of lucidity, like you point out, so there's something to save. Anders is still fighting a battle to hold back Vengeance, so there's something to save/help/whatever.

Of course, I don't think the Chantry/templars actually draw that distinction, which is doubtless part of the problem. In their eyes, Anders is an abomination - going by the short story, he was perceived as one the moment he allowed Justice to share headspace, and after the result of that they're definitely going to consider him one.

I don't think that's humane treatment, no, but I also think that when something does go wrong it goes wrong so spectacularly that the Chantry feels they have sufficient justification to keep close watch on mages - and if you were one of the Redcliffe villagers who suffered because of Connor's possession, you'd probably agree with them.

Modifié par snarkycleric, 16 février 2011 - 07:06 .

[Sarah1281]

I always sort of figured that the twisted abominations you see are the ones that are forcibly possessed since we watched Uldred torturing that one mage into becoming a twisted abomination while Uldred himself and Connor (themselves voluntarily getting possessed although at least in Connor's case not really understanding what he was doing) managed to retain their forms. Anders, too, seems to look the same and he agreed to let Justice in.

[cmessaz]

snarkycleric wrote...

cmessaz wrote...

Well, can you save an abomination? I mean those that are twisted in flesh as well, I would imagine not. Connor was just possessed...just a matter of being able to retain ones sanity while being occupied by a spirit/demon. I think the mages who have become possessed to the point they lost their sanity can't be saved, but those like Connor, can be

I think it's in a conversation with Wynne, actually. (And it's my fault for using the word 'abomination' - I actually do think there's a distinction between abomination and possession. Sorry!) You can tell her that mages aren't abominations until they've lost their reasoning/sanity, I think. I generally don't remember my conversations with Wynne. So I would imagine those completely driven insane are those you can't save, since you have to have something to save in the first place, yeah. Connor had moments of lucidity, like you point out, so there's something to save. Anders is still fighting a battle to hold back Vengeance, so there's something to save/help/whatever.

Of course, I don't think the Chantry/templars actually draw that distinction, which is doubtless part of the problem. In their eyes, Anders is an abomination - going by the short story, he was perceived as one the moment he allowed Justice to share headspace, and after the result of that they're definitely going to consider him one.

I don't think that's humane treatment, no, but I also think that when something does go wrong it goes wrong so spectacularly that the Chantry feels they have sufficient justification to keep close watch on mages - and if you were one of the Redcliffe villagers who suffered because of Connor's possession, you'd probably agree with them.

This, exactly.



@Sarah, hmmm. Good point.

Modifié par cmessaz, 16 février 2011 - 07:08 .

[Galagraphia]

 Well, Fiona didn't agree to let the demon in, it turned her into an abomination, but when her friends kicked it out, she came back to normal. And Anders was changing and then became himself again (I wonder if this is the reason why his robes look like they were torn and then stitched together).

Mmm, I'm speculating about a dark romance... My hand thawed out just in time! (It's -4 F outside)

[Aeowyn]

I think Gaider stated what Sarah already said: If a mage is forcebly possessed by a demon they become abominations. If they willingly get possessed however, they remain the same, which I guess explains why Uldred and the Baroness remained in their human "forms" even though they were demons.

[nenosronhir]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I always sort of figured that the twisted abominations you see are the ones that are forcibly possessed since we watched Uldred torturing that one mage into becoming a twisted abomination while Uldred himself and Connor (themselves voluntarily getting possessed although at least in Connor's case not really understanding what he was doing) managed to retain their forms. Anders, too, seems to look the same and he agreed to let Justice in.

It might depend on the demon variety, as well - I think all of the fleshy abominations we see in the circle are rage/hunger, and we know Sloth demons do the same thing to their hosts (both from the Calling and from the Circle). Those possessed by Pride demons, on the other hand, seem to retain their human bodies (Uldred and The Baroness).

The two Desire demon possessions we see seem to go the same way as Pride demons; Connor, and the little girl in Honnleath. Granted, both are children, Connor has only budding powers, and we're not sure if the girl is a mage or not (though it is a possibility, considering her heritage), so that might play a factor.

The only non-circle abomination I can think of is one of the quests from the Mages' Collective in Denerim, concerning this codex entry but there's no indication of the type of demon in control or whether he was possessed against his will.

I don't get the impression that Pride and Desire demons have much cause to possess unwilling hosts, however, so the argument might be moot either way, haha.

Edit: Oh, derp, nevermind me if Gaider's already gone over this. XD''

@Gala *wibble* ;~;

Modifié par nenosronhir, 16 février 2011 - 07:48 .

[snarkycleric]

@Gala: Yeah, his robes do look heavily mended, and I'm inclined to agree with you on why they look like they were torn and restitched - I imagine the moments when Vengeance takes over are very, very hard on clothes.

Also: the picture, it's gorgeous, although it makes my heart break (again). Poor Anders.  

Modifié par snarkycleric, 16 février 2011 - 07:50 .

[cmessaz]

Wow, I really like that Galagraphia. I am really looking forward to this romance. Poor Anders

[Miri1984]

Gala - I love the stark black and white of that - it's beautiful.

And @Surely I know what you mean - I'm not thrilled that the Anders I knew and loved is now something much much darker, a part of me is wibbling inside, however the Anders he has become is totally and utterly fascinating. I can't say I would have preferred him to be the same because to be honest, there wouldn't be as much potential for sheer MEATY STORY, but I mourn his loss nonetheless.

ETA Re: Uldred - yes, but it's a bit worrying, considering when you speak to him and call him Uldred he laughs and says "There's no Uldred here any more" - indicating that whoever Uldred WAS when he first let the demon in is absolutely no longer there.

Modifié par Miri1984, 16 février 2011 - 09:20 .

[Sarah1281]

I don't know. I think that they still could have gone the route where Anders apparently finds out a friend was made Tranquil, vows vengeance against the Chantry, then actively seeks its destruction without getting freaking possessed by a demon. I mean, they can make all the other characters interesting without having to resort to that.

[cave_fatuam]

I don't think "resort to" is the right phrase. This was obviously planned when they were making Awakening, so this was always going to happen. We just didn't know. I think everyone is taking the story a bit farther than necessary. It's obviously Anders' internal dialogue... which is going to be creepy even for a non-possessed person. But what do I know, I just make pretty pictures.
Anyway, I stand resolutely stalwart in my little corner of camp Anders, where I'll miss the cheekiness in the inevitable serious bits, but will thoroughly enjoy the dark turn of things.

Modifié par cave_fatuam, 16 février 2011 - 09:38 .

[Miri1984]

@Sarah Possibly - but it wouldn't be as dark. I really think the story has coloured our perception of this hugely, though. Hepler did say he was his normal self with one massive blind spot - and the story is BRUTAL, but my guess is the Justice thing (at least at first) is not quite as bad as we think. At least at first.

[Sarah1281]

I'm worried but I'll probably like the game. I just think right now that Anders will be really, really creepy. Strangely, I didn't feel that way the last time I came across a Bioware companion that was possessed (Wild Flower from Jade Empire) but she wasn't a romance option and if you followed the good path she was freed from possession and brought back to life at the end of the game anyway. Come to think of it, given that she was undead and possessed by two demons, she probably SHOULD have creeped me out. Maybe actually seeing Anders in the game will make him seem less disturbing.

[Miri1984]

@Sarah Possibly because you "knew" him before? I know I'm pretty horrified by JUSTICE's fate - let alone Anders'. I wasn't an enormous Justice fan in Awakenings, but I've gone back and listened to his dialogues and it's completely heartbreaking that he's been corrupted.



And as I've said before, I'm sure Anders is as well, which makes the whole thing even more sad and dark. *hugs them both tight*

[Sarah1281]

I think you might be right.



I actually haven't really given too much thought to Justice's predicament but had he been in someone less vengeance-driven (say...Jowan) then he might not have become a demon. For some reason I'm tending to assign more of the blame to Justice than Anders even though I like them both and we know that Justice didn't force himself on Anders and it was Anders emotions that corrupted Justice. I guess because Justice is the one who went ahead with the body-sharing and he was the one in Awakening who was so worried about the consequences and yet he went ahead and did it anyway.

[Miri1984]

@Sarah and Anders was LONELY . That was the thing that really got to me about that story - he wants to share with Justice because he's sick of being alone against the world. If our wardens had stuck around he might not have felt that way. Makes me really sad.

[ashez2ashes]

To be honest, is anyone else kind of hesitant they even want to be an Anders fangirl yet? I loved him in Awakening, but he could have changed so much he might not have the same qualities I liked to begin with. I've never been into grim dark angsty characters.



On a random note, have they said who is going to be the M/M romance? The elf dude seems obvious, but I think it'd be more interesting if it ended up being Anders.

[Sarah1281]

Miri1984 wrote...



@Sarah and Anders was LONELY . That was the thing that really got to me about that story - he wants to share with Justice because he's sick of being alone against the world. If our wardens had stuck around he might not have felt that way. Makes me really sad.

So in a way, the closer the Warden got to Anders the worse it is when they mysteriously vanish.

To be honest, is anyone else kind of hesitant they even want to be an Anders fangirl yet?

Well, I don't like playing males in RPGs and think Isabela and Merrill look unappealing. I also don't like elf/human romances so what's-his-name is out. If I can't fangirl over Anders I won't have anyone in DA2.