9058 réponses à ce sujet

[Morlanwen]

You're not that awfull.. or maybe I'AM awfull too .
I din't tought of 9/11...maybe of the french revolution (my own History .. well, not MINE, I'm not this old:P)
I don't pretend he did a good thing, just the right thing. I admit that I wanted to slap him for not telling me his plan.

[Galagraphia]

@Morlanwen, good to know I'm not the only one

Ah, look at me, it's 2 a.m., my eyes are full of sand an I can't stop sketching. Alright, Gala's going to sleep now.

[Avayla]

See, I just need to come here to get my Anders fix. *SPOILERS* Just got to Act 3 in my second play through and did the Justice quest. Now, im romancing Fenris this time around, but im a mage, so im siding with Anders and we're bff's. I was depressed the whole time I did the quest, and I walked away after it was done. I went searching online to see if there was any way to fix him. None. So, of course, I came across a lot of Anders haters and people who killed him for being a terrorist. I got more depressed and put up a screenie on my desktop of Anders and his beautiful smirk from my awakenings playthrough. Then I come here, and I am refreshed. I DO agree with him. It had to be done. I just wish he had trusted me enough to tell me. And his romance is better, sweeter, with full on tummy tingles and everything. (I could replay that kiss a hundred times...) Fenris is great for the emo- angry sex complete with brooding passion and a voice like chocolate covered chocolate. But he's just so stubborn and I really can't stand the mage hating. So, guess ill have to have another playthrough with Anders again. Oh by the way, funny scene when you romance Fenris: when you enter the sewers for the Justice quest (I had Fenris with me), Anders gets jealous and asks me what im doing with the mage-hating emo kid, and if I want a real man who has an open mind. Lol! Fenris was not happy. XD

[Glorfindel709]

I personally didn't connect Anders to 9/11 and my Mage Hawke supported the mage revolution, but still did think that what he did was a kind of ideological extremism/terrorism.

Princeton dictionary: "the calculated use of violence (or the threat of violence) against civilians in order to attain goals that are political or religious or ideological in nature"

Whether you consider the Grand Cleric and the sisters/brothers in the Chantry civilians or an enabler of templar cruelty, fact remains that he used an explosive Tevinter bomb of doom to make people choose a side in a very hotly contested ideological/political/religious issue.

I didnt hold it against him though, I know he wouldnt have turned to this extremism if the bastard who took over for my Warden as Warden Commander had allowed him to keep Ser Pounce

[Star]

Miri1984 wrote...

Re the terrorism arguments, people are all triggery about what he did because of 9/11, I think, so they can't separate the DA2 world from the real world, even though Anders' actions are nothing like the acts of terrorism being perpetrated these days. It took me a couple of days to come to terms with the fact that I actually agreed with him, my political correctness kept trying to tell me I was wrong.

I agree with you  that people are being triggered.  It was a very (and to me cheaply) manipulative plotline.  Made me angry frankly.  And the reference seemed not just to 9/11 but Oklahoma City.  I recognized the fertilizer bomb ingredients when we were collecting them. Bioware is not particularly subtle in it's plotlines these days. 

World history is full of examples of oppression and violent means to ending suppression.  There is a tendency to demonize those who are violent -- unless they are on "our" side.  The bad guys in movies often expire in explosions or gun fights that take out innocents and we cheer the "good guys" on.  Many of America's "founding fathers" did many  things that would be considered acts of terror in their time (although of course as Americans we see that rather differently from this end of history).   The movie "The Expendables" comes to mind from this past summer -- made millions -- and people stood up and cheered when the bad guy's HQ blew up.  No one worried that there were innocent detainees or workers inside.   So, killing Anders feels more of a knee jerk response to me than a thoughtful one. Not PC?

I also felt that in many ways it would be much more painful to have to live with the results of one's actions (and I wasn't going to be bullied by Sebastian either) so I didnt' kill Anders.  Not happening! lol.

[Avayla]

Yea, I was thinking about this game waaaay too much last night. I was up super late, reading forums, reading the arguments for and against. I really gave it a lot of thought. And Ive decided there is no way I would ever kill him. After the mages being oppressed for over 900 years, the fact that the templars would rape, kill and tranquilize any mage they felt like and hide behind a couple verses in the Chant to justify it. The fact that Meredith was about to invoke the Right of Annulment (the fact that it even exists is horrific) because of the actions of one mage. The mages were turning to blood magic BECAUSE the templars were pushing them into terrifying places. They couldn't see any other way. Blood magic is easier, and stronger, and they can fight back. What Anders did was inevitable. It was going to happen by someone. Why not from my favorite rebel mage? Did it suck? Yep, I wish it hadn't come to that. For all the innocent people he killed, there were hundreds and hundreds more mages who were killed because of the tyranny. Do I believe every Templar is wrong? No, Cullen is the perfect example of that. Do I believe every mage is right? No, I don't. But the fact that they weren't given basic freedoms and were told the Maker cursed them, its horrible.

After thinking about it last night (I can't believe this game conflicted me so much!) I decided if Anders had told my Hawke why she was collecting those ingredients, she would have kept collecting. I wish he had told her, but I understand why. He didn't want to implicate her in any of it, no ties to her. But at the end, my Hawke didn't kill him or send him away. She wanted him to fight. I don't think I could ever put a knife in his back. Not just because he's Anders and I'm totally in pixel love with him, but because I believe what he did was not necessarily good, but it was right.

[Avayla]

Oh and on a lighter note, did anyone see this video?! I guess this is in the DLC, the Exiled Prince. I have Sebastian, but I haven't done this quest, or thought to bring him along to the brothel (hello?! How fun would that be?!) But I came across this and I just about died. The absolute BEST part about this is when you watch Anders' expression change when they see what's happening. I keep jumping back to that and laughing till I cry. He's so frikin adorable!



And Sebastian apologizing to Hawke...hilarious.

[snarkycleric]

I'm probably awful too if the lot of you are. I didn't connect it to any real world incidents myself - I saw it as the actions of one man driven to desperation by the increasing tension between the mages and the templars, and the Grand Cleric refusing to intervene.

...actually I thought about this so much I ended up blogging about it, so you can have my thoughts here:

Anders always struck me as a ... religious, if not devout and actually rather irreverent person, in that he believed in the Maker and Andraste but disapproved of the Chantry, partly because he felt it deviated from Andraste's ideals in the way it treated the mages. He also struck me as very much the compassionate healer - he's one of the most outspoken against destroying Amaranthine in Awakening, and then there's all the free healing he's doing in Kirkwall. Also, you can let him go in Awakening and he chooses to stay to help you, even though doing so might get him caught. Sure, he's got selfish impulses, but who hasn't?

I mean, this is the man who healed countless people for free and at his own personal risk for several years, who romanced my Hawke, who killed a Broodmother with my f!Surana, who hated himself for nearly killing the mage girl in Act II. I cannot imagine anything my Hawke doing being worse than what he must do to himself, emotionally, every single day, for the deaths of innocents. He felt it was necessary; that does not make it right. I do not think he thought he was right. I think he thought that he had no other choice, and that he tore himself to shreds over this because he never wanted to hurt a soul who didn't attack or provoke him first. Because in my head Anders is first and foremost a compassionate healer; the revolutionary bit comes much later.

...yeah, okay, apologies for wall of text.

[DragonRacer13]

Star58 wrote...

Miri1984 wrote...

Re the terrorism arguments, people are all triggery about what he did because of 9/11, I think, so they can't separate the DA2 world from the real world, even though Anders' actions are nothing like the acts of terrorism being perpetrated these days. It took me a couple of days to come to terms with the fact that I actually agreed with him, my political correctness kept trying to tell me I was wrong.

I agree with you  that people are being triggered.  It was a very (and to me cheaply) manipulative plotline.  Made me angry frankly.  And the reference seemed not just to 9/11 but Oklahoma City.  I recognized the fertilizer bomb ingredients when we were collecting them. Bioware is not particularly subtle in it's plotlines these days. 

World history is full of examples of oppression and violent means to ending suppression.  There is a tendency to demonize those who are violent -- unless they are on "our" side.  The bad guys in movies often expire in explosions or gun fights that take out innocents and we cheer the "good guys" on.  Many of America's "founding fathers" did many  things that would be considered acts of terror in their time (although of course as Americans we see that rather differently from this end of history).   The movie "The Expendables" comes to mind from this past summer -- made millions -- and people stood up and cheered when the bad guy's HQ blew up.  No one worried that there were innocent detainees or workers inside.   So, killing Anders feels more of a knee jerk response to me than a thoughtful one. Not PC?

I also felt that in many ways it would be much more painful to have to live with the results of one's actions (and I wasn't going to be bullied by Sebastian either) so I didnt' kill Anders.  Not happening! lol.

I very much think this is a classic case of Your Terrorists Are Our Freedom Fighters . Opinions will vary.

On that note, after much reflection and forum guilt trips from those frothing at the mouth, I am firmly in the camp of those who saw it as a necessary action/catalyst for change/he did what had to be done. My Hawke was a mage-loving and mage-protecting rogue, so she chose to run off with him into hiding and/or rabble-rousing. And I'm okay with that. Honestly, as in-your-face as she was, I actually think she was upset more about not getting to "press the explode button" than anything else! LOL

Modifié par DragonRacer13, 19 mars 2011 - 04:23 .

[Avayla]

snarkycleric wrote...

I'm probably awful too if the lot of you are. I didn't connect it to any real world incidents myself - I saw it as the actions of one man driven to desperation by the increasing tension between the mages and the templars, and the Grand Cleric refusing to intervene.

...actually I thought about this so much I ended up blogging about it, so you can have my thoughts here:

Anders always struck me as a ... religious, if not devout and actually rather irreverent person, in that he believed in the Maker and Andraste but disapproved of the Chantry, partly because he felt it deviated from Andraste's ideals in the way it treated the mages. He also struck me as very much the compassionate healer - he's one of the most outspoken against destroying Amaranthine in Awakening, and then there's all the free healing he's doing in Kirkwall. Also, you can let him go in Awakening and he chooses to stay to help you, even though doing so might get him caught. Sure, he's got selfish impulses, but who hasn't?

I mean, this is the man who healed countless people for free and at his own personal risk for several years, who romanced my Hawke, who killed a Broodmother with my f!Surana, who hated himself for nearly killing the mage girl in Act II. I cannot imagine anything my Hawke doing being worse than what he must do to himself, emotionally, every single day, for the deaths of innocents. He felt it was necessary; that does not make it right. I do not think he thought he was right. I think he thought that he had no other choice, and that he tore himself to shreds over this because he never wanted to hurt a soul who didn't attack or provoke him first. Because in my head Anders is first and foremost a compassionate healer; the revolutionary bit comes much later.

...yeah, okay, apologies for wall of text.

Agree...100%. And I didn't even think about the fact that he was so adamant about my f!Cousland saving Amaranthine. Very good point. He is NOT crazy. He's not heartless. He's the opposite. He took on something that will probably plague his soul for years to come (if he's not killed by Hawke) because no one else would. I actually think it was the opposite of selfish. 

[Galagraphia]

Avayla wrote...

Oh and on a lighter note, did anyone see this video?! I guess this is in the DLC, the Exiled Prince. I have Sebastian, but I haven't done this quest, or thought to bring him along to the brothel (hello?! How fun would that be?!) But I came across this and I just about died. The absolute BEST part about this is when you watch Anders' expression change when they see what's happening. I keep jumping back to that and laughing till I cry. He's so frikin adorable!



And Sebastian apologizing to Hawke...hilarious.

OMG, I was laughing so hard about that scene that I completely missed Anders' expression!  It's priceless! That's my favourite part in that DLC. Well, this and Seb's voice.

[Avayla]

Yea...Sebastian's voice makes me wish there was more of a romance with him and that he wasn't such a goody two shoes. My favorite banter with him is him and Varric when Seb says that it's exciting following around Hawke because he's never had the chance to help so many people. I wanted my Hawke to turn around and give him the o_O face.

[snarkycleric]

Avayla wrote...

Yea...Sebastian's voice makes me wish there was more of a romance with him and that he wasn't such a goody two shoes

Amen. Did you see the banter he has with Merrill? She points out that his shiny white armour makes it difficult for him to hide, and he says something like "The Maker's Light is my shield."

I facepalmed, because when someone says that I think "Oh god, a Leeroy Jenkins in the making..." I was sort of disappointed that Anders didn't facepalm too, because it seemed to me like exactly the kind of thing a healer would facepalm at.

Modifié par snarkycleric, 19 mars 2011 - 04:57 .

[Avayla]

Oh man...I did not hear that one. Actually, I've changed my mind. I think my favorite is Anders asking him why he has Andraste's head on his crotch. I forgot about that one. I just about cried.

[snarkycleric]

Oh, yes, the Andraste's head conversation. I couldn't stop laughing. "I'm not sure I'd want the Maker seeing me shove His Bride's head between my legs every morning." Good old Anders snark, that one.

He took on something that will probably plague his soul for years to come (if he's not killed by Hawke) because no one else would. I actually think it was the opposite of selfish.

Actually, I just thought of this. In all fairness (heh), he would probably have had something gnawing away at him anyway - either he kills innocents, or he continues to see a great deal of suffering inflicted on mages just for being who and what they are. There's that remark he makes about being fortunate enough not to be raped by templars, there's the scene with Ser Alrik, which made me feel sick to the core - my Hawke was definitely going to nuke Alrik from here to kingdom come even if Anders hadn't gone all Vengeance. There's also a bit where he tells you that mages are told, every day, that they are born with a stain upon their soul. And he's from the Ferelden Circle - the Kirkwall one must be so much worse. 

So now I think of it, he would have had to deal with the guilt either way. But I still see it as very much a case of conviction in ideals against compassion for others - something had to give. With Vengeance, conviction was the one that came through. And like you, I don't think it's selfish either way - it's a great deal of responsibility he didn't need to take up. He could have just run away. He didn't, in the end. And it also seems to me that he'd rather take the sin upon himself and spare others (which is why he didn't want to involve Hawke.) 

Modifié par snarkycleric, 19 mars 2011 - 05:42 .

[Galagraphia]

Oh, I've reloaded and stabbed Anders for the research. The scene just sucks. This is not the execution of a criminal. It's a murder. I kind of see Elthina high above near the Maker and Andraste crying out: "Sebastian, this is a murder!" Seriously, I bet she would've given Anders a second chance to do something good. Because he's not a bad person. Just broken and desperate.
And... hehe, actually it's not the first time Anders dies, right? Darkspawn could kill him in Amaranthine, templars ran him through in the short story. Do you think that ridiculous knife can do it? I don't. I'm sure we will hear of him in DA3.
Ah, and a happy Anders:



P.S. I'm playing now a sarcastic Hawke, she's so adorable! She jokes in the background, she jokes when I click on her, she makes hilarious comments about everything. She was giving the Wounded coast funny names for about a minute and then said: "Or it's just me? Ok, forget I said anything" Love her.

[snarkycleric]

Galagraphia wrote...

I kind of see Elthina high above near the Maker and Andraste crying out: "Sebastian, this is a murder!"

That was one of the reasons why I didn't listen to Sebastian. What he wanted wasn't justice, it was vengeance; it would have been just as bad.

[Galagraphia]

Sebastian: I demand justice!
Hawke: Trust me, Sebastian, Anders won't escape from Justice.
Anders: Yes, I think it's permanent.
Sebastian: I hate you all! *leaves*
Hawke: Dammit, Anders, look what you've done! I've lost Ser Sexy Accent because of you.
Anders: I had a sexy accent once too. Until Justice happened. He didn't like it.
Hawke: This is maddening. Let's kill some templars to cheer up a bit.

[snarkycleric]

Galagraphia wrote...

Anders: I had a sexy accent once too. Until Justice happened. He didn't like it.

Oh, Justice. Worried Anders would be too busy with the teeming fangirl horde to care about mage oppression?

[Sarah1281]

There's that remark he makes about being fortunate enough not to be raped by templars, there's the scene with Ser Alrik, which made me feel sick to the core - my Hawke was definitely going to nuke Alrik from here to kingdom come even if Anders hadn't gone all Vengeance.

It's even more chilling if you aren't a mage yourself and Bethany was taken to the Circle. Her letter mentions Alrik by name as a creep she's trying to stay away from. After seeing what he's trying to do to Ella...his existence is a threat to Bethany, as far as I'm concerned.

Oh, I've reloaded and stabbed Anders for the research. The scene just sucks. This is not the execution of a criminal. It's a murder

Why? Because of the 'stabbed in the back' thing? Would it have been better if Hawke had been facing him? Anders knew it was coming and why it was being done so I don't see why it would be considered a murder. There weren't any trials back then. The viscount would have settled it but he's dead. Meredith is doing the viscount's job and she'd kill him. I think pretty much everyone but Hawke would under those circumstances. How would that not end up being murder while Hawke's was? Or would killing him at all for his actions be murder?

[Miri1984]

Oh, Seb. I hate you. I really REALLY wanted to take him on the fade mission so I could get him to betray me and yell at him for it but he's blacked out for that mission. Stupid DLC. I'm glad I didn't pay for him.

His accent is sexy, his eyes and nose are adorable, but he's precisely the sort of person I would close the door firmly to if they knocked. "No, thank you, we're not interested."

[leggywillow]

Galagraphia wrote...

Sebastian: I demand justice!
Hawke: Trust me, Sebastian, Anders won't escape from Justice.
Anders: Yes, I think it's permanent.
Sebastian: I hate you all! *leaves*
Hawke: Dammit, Anders, look what you've done! I've lost Ser Sexy Accent because of you.
Anders: I had a sexy accent once too. Until Justice happened. He didn't like it.
Hawke: This is maddening. Let's kill some templars to cheer up a bit.

LOL.

Hawke: Oh, don't worry, Seb.  He will be punished.  Severely.
Sebastian:  Good!  Kill hi--
Hawke: He will be sleeping on the couch for at least one week.
Anders: D:  A week?
Hawke: Okay, maybe only three nights.  Or maybe just one.
Anders: ::sexy pout::
Hawke: Okay, fine.  You are not allowed to be on top for one week.
Anders: 
Sebastian: 

[Galagraphia]

@Sarah, maybe it's just me, but it looks kind of... simple. I don't know how to express it better. I would prefer a pyre, in public after proclaiming what was his crime. Or at least to chop off his head. But I'm no fan of swift justice, I think Hawke is ruled by emotions in that moment and may regret later. It's too soon to make a judgement, Hawke can kill him anytime, but won't bring him back to life if that stab was not what he/she really wanted. Besides, that wasn't a "clean kill", seeing agonizing Anders was really painful.

[dpMeggers]

*Spoilers*
I knifed Anders on my first playthrough with a rogue f!Hawke friend-mance. (SORRY!) Not out of any sense of justice/retribution, but because he was suffering. The way he said "maybe now Justice will be free" made me think he really meant "maybe now I can be free of this monster I've become." She/I just wanted to spare him more pain. I went into the game end-spoiler free so that was...shockingly painful.


Edit: I also kinda liked Sebastian, because he's a nice guy (I friended him) but also wanted to smack him upside the head a few times, because he has a very black/white world view.

Modifié par dpMeggers, 19 mars 2011 - 08:19 .

[snarkycleric]

Galagraphia wrote...

@Sarah, maybe it's just me, but it looks kind of... simple. I don't know how to express it better. I would prefer a pyre, in public after proclaiming what was his crime. Or at least to chop off his head. But I'm no fan of swift justice, I think Hawke is ruled by emotions in that moment and may regret later. It's too soon to make a judgement, Hawke can kill him anytime, but won't bring him back to life if that stab was not what he/she really wanted. Besides, that wasn't a "clean kill", seeing agonizing Anders was really painful.

It's not just you. I don't think there should be some kind of public ritual for it, but the tone is wrong. I think both Hawke and Anders are reacting extremely emotionally at that point - Anders is suffering, yes. He sits down and expects to die, yes. Logically, it's not murder, but at the same time I think if you killed him at that point justice would not have been served, because everyone's heavily emotionally invested and wants blood. To me that makes it vengeance, not justice.

If I were to kill him, I would have done it later, but I don't believe the game gives you that option...?