76 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

It's a simple idea that I haven't seen thrown around yet.

Mass Relays, the long distance sort, come in pairs: this is old news. So is the fact that the Citadel is a galactic-scale mass relay linking into dark space, one through which the Reapers come and go through the galaxy.

This means, of course, that the there must be an opposite relay in Dark Space. The Citadel's counterpoint.

Perhaps it is something purely functional. Something that is only a tool to be used. Ugly, only functional and of no use whatsoever.

I doubt it.

I suspect, besides the possibility for some momentous choice as to which species must die at some point in ME3, that the climax of the game will be to do just what Anderson promised to do in ME1: chase the Reapers back into dark space. Chase them back to where every new Reaper, each new ascended species goes. Take them back to perhaps where the Reapers cart off the technology and resources they strip from the planets of their conquests according to Vigil.

I suspect it, all of it, will come together at the counterpair to the Citadel, this undefined Dark Citadel.

My personal interpretation/suspicion of the Reapers is that they are out to preserve the most worthy parts of the galacy in s cycle meant to keep the galaxy livable (or at least allow new candidate species to grow). That the growth of galactic civilization past a point endangers the galaxy itself, such as the star of Haestrom.

This would be irrelevant, exept in so much that the Dark Citadel might not only serve as a relay but as the library of the Reaper's conquests, the memorial and epitath to what they were besides what is in the Reapers themselves. This might be where some of the stripped technologies and resources, those that aren't destroyed, go. This library might be where every new Reaper, where we might, find out the true history of the universe.

I can almost see it. A counter-station. Magnificent and beautiful in it's own way, not as a white station of life like the Citadel, but a black crypt of memory. Housing more data than has ever existed in this galactic cycle. A suitable last world for the trilogy.





Most of this is just supposition, musing, and whimsy. All I can claim to be sure of is that something is out in dark space. But I just felt like sharing my thoughts.

[PaladinUSA]

Interesting idea. I think something like this will be needed and could be very cool.



I'm hoping for some big fleet battles in ME3, but we will still need Shep on the ground making a personal difference, just like in ME1.



This could also lead to some interesting end-game choices...such as perhaps Shep or Shep and crew becoming stranded on the other side of the Citadel Relay.

[Pacifien]

The idea intrigues me, but the fact we spent ME2 having to go through a relay to meet the enemy where they live has tempered the enthusiasm somewhat because it feels like treading old territory.

[STG]

That actually sounds pretty good.



There could also be a choice between joining the reapers (becoming Saren 2.0) to help them with the cycle or destroying them all but pretty much dooming the galaxy in the long run.



Of course since the idea is good, you can forget about seeing it in ME3.

[Ecael]

I always thought the Reapers are the other half of the relay linking to the Citadel. Some of them (if not all of them) have tails shaped like the other end of a tuning fork or mass relay. The final area of the Derelict Reaper has Shepard shooting at an element zero core similar to a mass relay's as well.

In Mass Effect 1, Sovereign latched on to the Citadel Tower as if he were trying to complete the Mass Relay himself.

Modifié par Ecael, 04 juin 2010 - 03:49 .

[Lucav5]

This is an outstanding idea. The concept of the reapers serving as some sort of universal balancing force has always intrigued me.The final decision in ME3 could be choosing between the reapers and universal "stability", and the unknown of a completely unfettered universe. The idea that the reapers preserve every civilization they destroy in a grand antithesis to the citadel is... something I could see fitting in really well with the story thus far.

[Bluko]

Hmm very interesting idea. I get the feeling you may be right as there has to be some other Relay the Reapers use to get to the Citadel from Dark Space. Sort of like the Star Forge in KOTOR, except this "Dark Citadel" would be a huge pitch black space station virtually impossible to spot visually. Or something like that...

I would also venture this Dark Citadel controls all the other Relays, while also containing all the stuff the Reapers gather during their conquests. If Shepard can gain control of it he could shut off any Relays stopping the Reapers from entering the galaxy.

*Warning Long Read*


To me it seems like there's no possible way any assembled fleet could ever stop all the Reapers. There's close to about 1000 of them and just 1 one of them ruined the Asari, Turians, and Human's largest fleets. Even if every ship in the galaxy was outfitted with technology capable of damaging the Reapers we'd still be screwed in a fight. I doubt even the combined might of the Geth, Quarians, Batarians, Turians, Asari, Salarians, and Human fleets would be enough to take on 1000 Reapers.

There are basically 3 logical ways in which the Reapers could be defeated if you ask me.

1) Sending them into a Black Hole/Star via Mass Relay
2) Disabling them with some kind of Reaper Virus
3) Keeping them from entering the Galaxy until we are strong enough to defeat them in the future

Option 1 is certainly possible, although herding the Reapers into a Black Hole with a Mass Relay would require some sort of ingenius trick. Possible, but you'd think the Reapers would be smarter then that.

Option 2 is the least likely. Seeing as how Reapers are essentially huge collections of entire species' minds I doubt a simple virus could be made to effect them.

Option 3 certainly works, but is somewhat Anti-Climatic in that the Reapers still exist at the end of ME3. If the Reapers can't use any Mass Relays they'll essentially be forced to spend thousands of years traveling thru the Galaxy.

Even with FTL travel it would take roughly 100,000 years to traverse the diameter of the galaxy I imgaine. That's assuming FTL speeds aren't that much greater then the speed of light.



Basically if Shepard could reach the Dark Citadel and disable the Relays the main Reaper fleet are headed for, it would take the Reapers a few hundred/thousand years in order to reach any of our inhabited systems. In that time hopefully the species of the Galaxy could band together to prepare for that day. Although Shepard would not live to see that day Liara, Grunt, or Legion could be entrusted to see that effort be accomplished since they have millenia long lifespans.

Of course attacking the Dark Citadel isn't going to be a cakewalk. Attacking the Dark Citadel will probably require every fleet and ship Shepard can muster since the Dark Citadel will likely have weapons on a Death Star scale. I also imagine there'd be a small Reaper fleet left to guard it in case any Organics ever stumbled across it. I'd also be willing to bet that the original Reaper guards the Station. Perhaps this original Reaper is the station itself. If not it should be an extremely large sort of Super Reaper that's even more intimidating then Sovereign or Harbinger. I kind of doubt Harbinger is the leader of the Reapers. More likely Harbinger is simply the leader of the Reaper Fleet. I doubt  the Reapers would risk their true Master being destroyed.

The other great thing is who knows what's going to be on the Dark Citadel? I'm guessing the Dark Citadel will have legions of terrifying Husk-like alien creatures and or more twisted creations like the Collectors. This means Shepard would also require a strong army, probably needing every single Marine, Krogan, and Asari Commando to make an attack. The setting would be great as well fighting on a dark twisted machine creation that's literally millions of years old. All the while the Normandy and every other ship are battling the Reapers and the Station itself.

The beauty of this is that it also makes sense. The Reapers don't expect Organics would ever find the Dark Citadel before they wiped them out. Obviously the Dark Citadel is going to have lots of defenses just because the Reapers take lots of precautions, but it'll be our one-shot to catch them off-guard and halt their plans.

This in my opinion would be awesome. It would provide the huge over the top epic ending we're all expecting at the end ME3. And it would be right up there with LOTR:  Return of the King and Star Wars: Return of the Jedi. In fact in many ways it would be a lot like ROTJ, which I don't think is a bad thing. Sure it's not entirely original, but nothing is these days.

LOL @ Mass Effect 3: Return of the Reapers 

Kudos for the idea Dean, certainly one of the better ME3 story predictions so far. I really do hope Mass Effect 3 turns out to be something like this. It certainly would fit all the foreshadowing in ME2.

Modifié par Bluko, 04 juin 2010 - 04:56 .

[Calwae]

Ecael wrote...
In Mass Effect 1, Sovereign latched on to the Citadel Tower as if he were trying to complete the Mass Relay himself.

That was hott.

@ OP: That's an awesome idea. Just like in Childhood's End with that one particular city on the Overlord planet being a vast museum of all the ascended races. That would be a staggering experience in ME3, endless hallways filled with artifacts...wow that would be hard to envision, let alone depict. Could the Reapers be merely tools in a grander scheme, and keep mementos from other races like record keeping? My other question would be: do they preserve all races or aspects of races they destroy, regardless if they're made into Reapers? Because Harbinger says himself(itself?) that “turians are too primitive” and so on and so forth, so they obviously don’t make the cut, whereas humans supposedly do. So we may assume that several space faring races have coexisted at other times predating the Protheans, and may or may not have all been chosen for ascension. Also, there’s the possibility the Reapers had a hand in that orbital bombardment business of the planet Aphras with the one race in its bronze age. They obviously never became space faring, yet were still destroyed.

[SandTrout]

Bluko, I agree with you and Dean on most points, especially the Dark Citadel being used to house the remnants of the 'ascended' species. There is a lot of artistic and story possibilities that could go along with it,
I disagree with the idea that would be impossible for any standing fleet to defeat the Reapers. Yes, Sovereign did whoop a lot of but in the Battle of the Citadel, but also remember that it had a Heretic fleet backing it up as well, along with the pure surprise nature of the battle that left the Council Fleets in disarray.
Now, the Heretics are broken as a major force, the Citadel species have been scrounging up Reaper and Geth tech to improve their ships (IE: Thanix Cannon), and at least certain members of the galactic community know they are coming.
As powerful as they are, the Reapers are not invincible, and in order to successfully cleanse the galaxy each Cycle, they've typically needed control of the Citadel and the Mass Relay network to ensure victory. It may have taken the majority of Humanity's interstellar naval power to take down a single Reaper, but we can rebuild our fleet from virtually any losses we receive in a matter of a few years, especially once our economies shift into wartime production. Reapers, on the other hand cannot truly replace any loss they receive, as each Reaper likely required the harvesting of billions of individual sentients to produce.
Strategically, this means that the Citadel species could whittle away at the Reaper fleet, replacing losses as we go, until they no longer have adequate power to stand against the mass-produced fleets. It could take Decades, or possibly even centuries to wear them down that much, depending on how many of them there really are, but in the end, the Reapers need some sort of trick to allow them to gain a decisive advantage early on so that they can maintain control of the battlefields.
Also, as I understand ME FTL, ships likely travel at upwards of 100x the speed of light, even without Mass Relays, otherwise travel between stars would take months. Even so, it would still take the Reapers centuries to cross that distance with Non-Relay FTL. We do not have any solid numbers on the actual FTL speeds of ME ships in any case.

Modifié par SandTrout, 04 juin 2010 - 05:50 .

[Xivai]

Only the victor writes history. If you do anything more than study history's mistakes you are doomed only to repeat it.



I wouldn't trust a Reaper library. Also I suspect their station would be a ring of 7+ Dyson spheres. An immense artificial object that couldn't exist anywhere but darkspace. A single Dyson Sphere would be hard enough to pull off, but 7 of them in a gigantic station bigger than any object in the galaxy? It would probably be torn apart from naturally occurring forces. Situating this homeworld and the dark citadel in dark space would be logical to ease construction and maintenance.

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

Xivai wrote...

Only the victor writes history. If you do anything more than study history's mistakes you are doomed only to repeat it.

I wouldn't trust a Reaper library. Also I suspect their station would be a ring of 7+ Dyson spheres. An immense artificial object that couldn't exist anywhere but darkspace. A single Dyson Sphere would be hard enough to pull off, but 7 of them in a gigantic station bigger than any object in the galaxy? It would probably be torn apart from naturally occurring forces. Situating this homeworld and the dark citadel in dark space would be logical to ease construction and maintenance.

Better not be seven though, seven is heavily used number. Especially in bungie land.
It would be kicking, though I am hoping we at least get to direct some fleet battles or something of that nature. Make ME3 feel like the ****s and giggles are done now, it's time for battles and war time.

Modifié par Andrew_Waltfeld, 04 juin 2010 - 06:47 .

[Foolsfolly]

But I approve. [/Okeer]



This is a good idea. Makes sense in the lore. Might actually be something like this in the final game.

[PaladinUSA]

For dealing with the Reapers, remember that it was the Alliance's 5th Fleet that fought at the Citadel, NOT the entire Alliance Navy. Losses were heavy, but the Alliance was by no means cripplied. As for the other races, they had a large fleet at the Citadel, but it was not anywhere close to their full military might. The Turians had 5 Dreds for every 1 Alliance Dred, the Asari and Salarians had 3 per 1 Alliance Dred. I think it can be safely assumed that the Council races overall fleets are much larger than what was commited to the Citadel. Afterall, the Council didn't believe that the threat was as serious as it was, and thus didn't commit their full power to the battle. Bottom line is that the organic races of the galaxy still have huge militgaries ready to fight, and that isn't even counting the Geth if they were brought in, or the Migrant Fleet, or the Rachni, or even the Krogan if they were organized somehow.

It took the Reapers centuries to complete their conquest of the Protheans. The Reapers controlled the Mass Relay network and the Citadel, and made use of subterfuge and indoctrination. The amount of time needed and the use of means other than brute force implies that the Reapers, while more than a match for anything else in the Galaxy, are not all powerful. If they were, the Proteheans likely wouldn't have lasted as long as they did. Against the current population of the Galaxy, the Reapers may be in a stronger position due to the fractured nature of the current organics, but have lost the advantage of the first-strike and initial control of the Citadel and Mass Relays.

I foresee the Reaper fleet slowly overunning the Galaxy while the organics and possible allies fight a slow battle to slow them down. While the big militaries buy time, Shephard could be off finding some solution, such as a raid on the Reaper's 'Dark Citadel' or whatever else Bioware comes up with. Perhaps this raid would give Shep the tools he would need to ultimately defeat the Reaper fleet.

Sure, the solution could be to defeat the Reapers without a large-scale military confrontation, but I think that would be a letdown. I think that they will go after Earth, which could make for some great moments and some real motivation for the human characters.

[MerrickShep]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

It's a simple idea that I haven't seen thrown around yet.

Mass Relays, the long distance sort, come in pairs: this is old news. So is the fact that the Citadel is a galactic-scale mass relay linking into dark space, one through which the Reapers come and go through the galaxy.

This means, of course, that the there must be an opposite relay in Dark Space. The Citadel's counterpoint.

Perhaps it is something purely functional. Something that is only a tool to be used. Ugly, only functional and of no use whatsoever.

I doubt it.

I suspect, besides the possibility for some momentous choice as to which species must die at some point in ME3, that the climax of the game will be to do just what Anderson promised to do in ME1: chase the Reapers back into dark space. Chase them back to where every new Reaper, each new ascended species goes. Take them back to perhaps where the Reapers cart off the technology and resources they strip from the planets of their conquests according to Vigil.

I suspect it, all of it, will come together at the counterpair to the Citadel, this undefined Dark Citadel.

My personal interpretation/suspicion of the Reapers is that they are out to preserve the most worthy parts of the galacy in s cycle meant to keep the galaxy livable (or at least allow new candidate species to grow). That the growth of galactic civilization past a point endangers the galaxy itself, such as the star of Haestrom.

This would be irrelevant, exept in so much that the Dark Citadel might not only serve as a relay but as the library of the Reaper's conquests, the memorial and epitath to what they were besides what is in the Reapers themselves. This might be where some of the stripped technologies and resources, those that aren't destroyed, go. This library might be where every new Reaper, where we might, find out the true history of the universe.

I can almost see it. A counter-station. Magnificent and beautiful in it's own way, not as a white station of life like the Citadel, but a black crypt of memory. Housing more data than has ever existed in this galactic cycle. A suitable last world for the trilogy.





Most of this is just supposition, musing, and whimsy. All I can claim to be sure of is that something is out in dark space. But I just felt like sharing my thoughts.

I was thinking of something like this as well. The Reapers are the best of Organic and Synthetic life in the Galaxy.

I believe A Dark Citadel would be something like the Collector base a place where Reapers are created when they bring the Harvested Species from the Galaxy or perhaps even the Universe other Galaxies. Who is to say the only Harvest from our Galaxy.

I've also been thinking for a while why would they do this maybe even since the beginning of time. Perhaps the Reapers are preparing to face a threat even greater than themselves and they want to use the best from the Galaxies they've essentially created to stop it.

[Mister Mida]

Well of course there has to be some sort of relay in dark space. How else would the Reapers get to the Citadel if there isn't one?

[kraidy1117]

I have a feeling the Conduit does more then offers a backdoor to the Cititdel. Remember the law of trilogy. Something that played a huge part in the first part always plays a huge part in the last part.

[Xivai]

Mister Mida wrote...

Well of course there has to be some sort of relay in dark space. How else would the Reapers get to the Citadel if there isn't one?

Keep in mind relays didn't pop into existence. I have a feeling they have a more tempermental backup space travel method. It would have to be highly tempermental if they would go tall this way to eep the relays in tact. I mean how else would the relays get out there? They would have to do it the hard way (which strains even my belief of Reaper power), or they have a tempermental way to send a small force or lone ship to construct a mass relay at whatever point they choose.

[Bluko]

SandTrout wrote...

Bluko, I agree with you and Dean on most points, especially the Dark Citadel being used to house the remnants of the 'ascended' species. There is a lot of artistic and story possibilities that could go along with it,
I disagree with the idea that would be impossible for any standing fleet to defeat the Reapers. Yes, Sovereign did whoop a lot of but in the Battle of the Citadel, but also remember that it had a Heretic fleet backing it up as well, along with the pure surprise nature of the battle that left the Council Fleets in disarray.
Now, the Heretics are broken as a major force, the Citadel species have been scrounging up Reaper and Geth tech to improve their ships (IE: Thanix Cannon), and at least certain members of the galactic community know they are coming.

True it may not be entirely impossible for us to defeat the Reapers. But there are a few things that concern me...

While the Turians did salvage the Thanix Cannon from Sovereign, that only gives us a bit of an edge. We may have the firepower to kill Reapers, but none of our ships have the shield strength of a Reaper. At the Battle of the Citadel Sovereign basically ripped apart any ship he fired at. Unless serious improvements are made to our shield capabilities our ships will get destroyed very quickly.

I believe the Turians, Asari, Salarians, and Humans together have 83 Dreadnoughts. That's a large number but those are also the major military powers. The Quarians have a large fleet, but most are outdated Warships carrying Civilians. The Quarians probably have a few Dreadnoughts. The other big player is the Geth. The Geth may very well have a massive fleet. The Herectics made up only 5-10% of total Geth so the actuall Geth probably have a fleet 10x times as big. I would speculate the combined species of the Galaxy may have 150 Dreadnoughts or so at best. The Reapers on the other hand likely have 740 or more of themselves, having existed for at least 37 million years. So not only do they have superior ships, but they outnumber us 5:1 in Dreadnoughts. The only way I can see the Reapers being defeated in a battle is by using Starfighters, but I'm pretty sure Reapers have countermeasures for that as well.

A combined fleet of every species in the Galaxy would be powerful, and would probably destroy a fair number of Reapers. But the Reapers are still going to win any battle we try to fight them in. The Reapers have been around for millions of years and by this point I'm sure they are quite prepared to face most any fleet  Galactic civilization could field.

Of course who knows as I am merely speculating.

SandTrout wrote...

Also, as I understand ME FTL, ships likely travel at upwards of 100x the speed of light, even without Mass Relays, otherwise travel between stars would take months. Even so, it would still take the Reapers centuries to cross that distance with Non-Relay FTL. We do not have any solid numbers on the actual FTL speeds of ME ships in any case.

Ah you're probably right.

Actually I just checked and in Mass Effect FTL drives are typically 12x the Speed of Light according to the Codex. This means traveling across the Galaxy only takes 22 years ideally. So I guess that shoots my theory out of the water since The Reapers could likely reach the Citadel or another system in a few months or years.

Of course we don't know how far out in Darkspace the Reapers are. It could very well take them decades or centuries to reach inhabited zones of the galaxy. In which point deactivating certain specfic Mass Relays could stall them a significant amount of time.

[Wildecker]

This Dark Citadel should be more than just a big trophy hall. If it turns out to be sort of an archive storing knowledge (and art, let's not forget that part of a culture!) of every species found "worthy" during the cycles it could even help to understand the Reaper's motivation. I must say I grinned, wide, when I recalled Kelly Chambers' words on Cerberus - about worthy goals justifying their methods. So maybe the Reaper's goals are worthy, in their own way - can we hope to talk them out of their established methods by demonstrating there are other, better ways to reach their goal, whatever it may be? Preferrably ways that do not involve genocide, as we can't seriously cope with their massed military power anytime soon, Collector Base or not.

Modifié par Wildecker, 04 juin 2010 - 09:12 .

[Steingrimur Steingrimsson]

Yup. This is about the best end-game theory I have ever heard. Now I actually think I will be disappointed if it does not happen... Most of the game would be about gathering the biggest fleet known to man, while the epic space battle and climax would be on this counter-citadel.

[Wildecker]

And here's your ultimate Paragon decision: the Reapers agree to spare the galaxy IF you (yes, you Commander Shepard!) agree to a Reaper Domination Implant that allows them to assume direct control of you anytime they like, to study this new peaceful and harmonic galactic civilization you're trying to build ...

[adam_grif]

We do not have any solid numbers on the actual FTL speeds of ME ships in any case

WRONG.

Actually I just checked and in Mass Effect FTL drives are typically 12x the Speed of Light according to the Codex.

ALSO WRONG.



The codex gives us a speed of 12 lightyears / day. This is a speed of precisely 4383x the speed of light. This is a "typical" FTL speed, and top speed is limited by the relative size of the Eezo core and the mass of the ship, so small scout ships like the SR2 with an oversized core can presumably go considerably faster than this.

[STG]

adam_grif wrote...

We do not have any solid numbers on the actual FTL speeds of ME ships in any case

WRONG.

Actually I just checked and in Mass Effect FTL drives are typically 12x the Speed of Light according to the Codex.

ALSO WRONG.

[adam_grif]

Haha, don't be absurd. No woman could ever love me.