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[Sarah1281]

adneate wrote...

Well I'm Canadian too I've just observed these Americans and their curious ways, did you know they celebrate a brutal civil war every 4th of July?

No we don't. The Fourth of July was about declaring independence from Britain and the war that followed made America a country in its own right instead of just a colony. That's really not that much different then Canadians celebrating Britain allowing you to become your own country (which sounds a little less impressive, tbh) and the Civil War happened over eighty years later.

[Giggles_Manically]

It is awsome in Canada we just said "Can we please be our own country? We will still come home for supper every sunday!" Then Britian was all like"K".

[Sarah1281]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

It is awsome in Canada we just said "Can we please be our own country? We will still come home for supper every sunday!" Then Britian was all like"K".

You know, I'm not sure if you're saying that a war was unnecessary or mocking the unintentional implication that Canada becoming a country of its own was that simple.

[adneate]

Well demographically many didn't support such a break and the revolutionary war was very much a civil war pitting rural south (Loyalist) against urban north (Revolutionary). In fact for months after Concord and Lexington many American officers toasted their leader King George III and hoped for reconciliation with the crown. Americans tend to tidy up and mythologize their past making their conflicts more black and white, but it doesn't change the truth. Many long term residents of the thirteen colonies were executed for simply remaining loyal to the old flag and their old king.

[Giggles_Manically]

Read about the Canadian Confederation of 1867 it pretty much was that simple.



I just find it funny how so many countries fought a war and all we did was ask nicely.

[adneate]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Read about the Canadian Confederation of 1867 it pretty much was that simple.

I just find it funny how so many countries fought a war and all we did was ask nicely.

That's being reductive, since it was largely at Britain's behest the Canada was formed in the first place. Largely to serve the Empire's larger global defence goals and to allow Britain to be more hands off with it colonial possessions. Canada was created largely as a bulwark against American expansion and aggression, it would never had succeeded without Britain's constant intervention and nearly unlimited resources.

[Sarah1281]

adneate wrote...

Well demographically many didn't support such a break and the revolutionary war was very much a civil war pitting rural south (Loyalist) against urban north (Revolutionary). In fact for months after Concord and Lexington many American officers toasted their leader King George III and hoped for reconciliation with the crown. Americans tend to tidy up and mythologize their past making their conflicts more black and white, but it doesn't change the truth. Many long term residents of the thirteen colonies were executed for simply remaining loyal to the old flag and their old king.

There's never going to be 100% of conflicts. I mean, just look at the war military action that no one wants but that's still going on. I still don't think that the Revolutionary War would count as a civil war because it the long-term loyalist residents still considered themselves and were considered British citizens whereas the ones who supported a break clearly didn't.

Also, since many countries celebrate a date that they view as important in their independence then what is so peculiar about us doing the same? July Fourth is just the date on the Declaration of Independence, anyway, which was written quite awhile before war actually broke out.

[adneate]

Most "Americans" would of considered themselves British Subjects since there was no concept of being American until years after the war was over. Revolutionaries comprised maybe 1/3 of the population and brutally executed and purged those who would not fall in line, in return Loyalist militias would form as the King's army marched past the Loyalists in turn would slaughter revolutionaries and burn their homes down. It was the very definition of civil war as neighbours and brothers killed each other in savage attacks.

[Sarah1281]

I don't get why you're being so uptight about this. It was over 200 years ago and hardly the only 'civil war' to gain independence. If anything, Canada's peaceful semi-break with Britian is an anomaly and so that's hardly one of our 'curious ways.'

[adneate]

The problem, for me as a historian, is that whitewashing the past does nobody any favours. American children grow up thinking their country was united against some oppressive empire and that it alone invented personal freedoms and democracy. This causes a great deal of Jingoism and historical revisionism in American society, Americans shun the world and become introverted and arrogant. The danger is because they think their past is perfect they think they always make the right decisions, that they have the right to dictate to the world instead of seeing themselves as part of it and their nation as prone to failure and folley as any other.

[Sarah1281]

adneate wrote...

The problem, for me as a historian, is that whitewashing the past does nobody any favours. American children grow up thinking their country was united against some oppressive empire and that it alone invented personal freedoms and democracy. This causes a great deal of Jingoism and historical revisionism in American society, Americans shun the world and become introverted and arrogant. The danger is because they think their past is perfect they think they always make the right decisions, that they have the right to dictate to the world instead of seeing themselves as part of it and their nation as prone to failure and folley as any other.

Yes, they do teach that in elementary school. Children that age are really not good with more complicated things then that. Hell, I still can't get my now-fifth-grade brother to accept that Benny from RENT wasn't evil because he wanted to collect rent from people he was letting stay in his building for free and he's hardly stupid.

By the time you get to middle school and high school you start hearing about those less-than-good parts of the past. I mean, Japanese internment camps anyone? Does Britain have to be the boogeyman for people to want to be their own country and to be proud that they are? For various reasons, many colonists felt that being a colony was no longer in their best interests and half of Europe wanted to see Britain fail so they helped out. I don't see what's so bad about celebrating Independence Day just because people don't, on that day, soberly reflect on the unfortunate fates of the loyalists.

[Herr Uhl]

Sarah1281 wrote...

 Hell, I still can't get my now-fifth-grade brother to accept that Benny from RENT wasn't evil because he wanted to collect rent from people he was letting stay in his building for free and he's hardly stupid.

Capitalist swine!

[Sarah1281]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

 Hell, I still can't get my now-fifth-grade brother to accept that Benny from RENT wasn't evil because he wanted to collect rent from people he was letting stay in his building for free and he's hardly stupid.

Capitalist swine!

Oh God...don't tell me my brother's a...a...socialist. *shudders* 

[Herr Uhl]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

 Hell, I still can't get my now-fifth-grade brother to accept that Benny from RENT wasn't evil because he wanted to collect rent from people he was letting stay in his building for free and he's hardly stupid.

Capitalist swine!

Oh God...don't tell me my brother's a...a...socialist. *shudders* 

He might be, a quick test:

Does he call it freedom fries or French fries?

[adneate]

I don't see anything wrong with appreciating your country but I disagree with the notion of national pride. I believe in national shame but not pride, since pride leads to jingoism.

[Sarah1281]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

 Hell, I still can't get my now-fifth-grade brother to accept that Benny from RENT wasn't evil because he wanted to collect rent from people he was letting stay in his building for free and he's hardly stupid.

Capitalist swine!

Oh God...don't tell me my brother's a...a...socialist. *shudders* 

He might be, a quick test:

Does he call it freedom fries or French fries?

Okay, it's fine. He apparently calls them freedom fries (or he did when I asked him to pick one) although I'm fairly certain he calls them french fries normally. Or maybe just fries...

@ Adneate: Off the top of my head I can think of plenty less-than-proud moments in American history. AIDS was widely felt to be God's way of showing he hated gay people (and some people still feel this way), we had slavery until the end of the Civil War, they had to create an Amendment to the Constitution to make former slaves legally recognized people, the ridiculous lengths civil rights fighters had to go to end segregation and gain at least some measure of equality, the Red Scare, imprisoning those who disagreed with WW1, refusing to let Jewish refugees in in the 1930s...there's a lot. I still don't see what's the matter with national pride and you don't have to let it lead to xenophobia.

[adneate]

Fair enough Sarah, prehaps it's just cultural differences.

[Axekix]

adneate wrote...

The problem, for me as a historian, is that whitewashing the past does nobody any favours. American children grow up thinking their country was united against some oppressive empire and that it alone invented personal freedoms and democracy. This causes a great deal of Jingoism and historical revisionism in American society, Americans shun the world and become introverted and arrogant.

Erm, considering how divisive our involvement in Vietnam, and more recently Iraq (x2) has been... I don't think you have to worry about jingoism spreading throughout America. 

We're surprisingly free thinking people.

Also how did we get on this topic in the Leli thread?

[Herr Uhl]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Okay, it's fine. He apparently calls them freedom fries (or he did when I asked him to pick one) although I'm fairly certain he calls them french fries normally. Or maybe just fries...

Keep him under surveillance.

adneate wrote...

I don't see anything wrong with appreciating your country but I disagree with the notion of national pride. I believe in national shame but not pride, since pride leads to jingoism.

But why national shame, shouldn't it be universal?

[Sarah1281]

Axekix wrote...

adneate wrote...

The problem, for me as a historian, is that whitewashing the past does nobody any favours. American children grow up thinking their country was united against some oppressive empire and that it alone invented personal freedoms and democracy. This causes a great deal of Jingoism and historical revisionism in American society, Americans shun the world and become introverted and arrogant.

Erm, considering how divisive our involvement in Vietnam, and more recently Iraq (x2) has been... I don't think you have to worry about jingoism spreading throughout America. 

We're surprisingly free thinking people.

Also how did we get on this topic in the Leli thread?

Didn't you start it by saying that this was why we couldn't have nice things and then adneate said it was actually the Republicans fault and that set off the mini 'oh, isn't America weird' posts, one of which was about how the Fourth of July is weird? 

Herr Uhl wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Okay, it's fine. He apparently calls them freedom fries (or he did when I asked him to pick one) although I'm fairly certain he calls them french fries normally. Or maybe just fries...

Keep him under surveillance.

Oh, I will, if only to ensure that he doesn't end up a homophobic Republican who barely believes in evolution like my other brother. Where my parents went wrong with him, I'll never know...

Modifié par Sarah1281, 06 juillet 2010 - 01:22 .

[Herr Uhl]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Okay, it's fine. He apparently calls them freedom fries (or he did when I asked him to pick one) although I'm fairly certain he calls them french fries normally. Or maybe just fries...

Keep him under surveillance.

Oh, I will, if only to ensure that he doesn't end up a homophobic Republican who barely believes in evolution like my other brother. Where my parents went wrong with him, I'll never know...

Make him a communist, that ought to make for interesting discussions.

Edit: And you know about kids and their bibles these days. Impossible to keep them away from them.

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 06 juillet 2010 - 01:26 .

[Axekix]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Axekix wrote...

adneate wrote...

The problem, for me as a historian, is that whitewashing the past does nobody any favours. American children grow up thinking their country was united against some oppressive empire and that it alone invented personal freedoms and democracy. This causes a great deal of Jingoism and historical revisionism in American society, Americans shun the world and become introverted and arrogant.

Erm, considering how divisive our involvement in Vietnam, and more recently Iraq (x2) has been... I don't think you have to worry about jingoism spreading throughout America. 

We're surprisingly free thinking people.

Also how did we get on this topic in the Leli thread?

Didn't you start it by saying that this was why we couldn't have nice things and then adneate said it was actually the Republicans fault and that set off the mini 'oh, isn't America weird' posts, one of which was about how the Fourth of July is weird.

MY fault!?  Adneate is the one who made it political!

American or Canadian, we can all appreciate some hawt Orlesian, no?


Can't wait for the DLC!

[adneate]

Axekix wrote...

Also how did we get on this topic in the Leli thread?

This thread has a god given talent for getting wildly side-tracked, I blame lobsters. You can't trust those crazy spiders of the sea and their beaty little eyes

[Sarah1281]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Okay, it's fine. He apparently calls them freedom fries (or he did when I asked him to pick one) although I'm fairly certain he calls them french fries normally. Or maybe just fries...

Keep him under surveillance.

Oh, I will, if only to ensure that he doesn't end up a homophobic Republican who barely believes in evolution like my other brother. Where my parents went wrong with him, I'll never know...

Make him a communist, that ought to make for interesting discussions.

Edit: And you know about kids and their bibles these days. Impossible to keep them away from them.

 It might already be too late if his insistence that it makes perfect sense for the supposedly secular government to enforce not being allowed to sell alcohol on Sunday mornings because people should be in church whatever secular reason because the Bible says we should rest on Sunday. Of course, he seemed to be under the impression that Jesus was in favor of this and didn't tell people it was ridiculous not to get essential tasks done because you had to spend a seventh of the week doing nothing but the point was that to him 'in the Bible' = 'literal truth.'

[adneate]

Sarah1281 wrote...

It might already be too late if his insistence that it makes perfect sense for the supposedly secular government to enforce not being allowed to sell alcohol on Sunday mornings because people should be in church whatever secular reason because the Bible says we should rest on Sunday. Of course, he seemed to be under the impression that Jesus was in favor of this and didn't tell people it was ridiculous not to get essential tasks done because you had to spend a seventh of the week doing nothing but the point was that to him 'in the Bible' = 'literal truth.'

Oh he's one of those, that must really suck.