9727 réponses à ce sujet

[FiliusMartis]

I understand where you're coming from, but I'm a bit inclined to disagree. Two of her closest friends were male, and I don't see her discarding her memories of the good men she fought with because of one snake. I've not noticed a significant difference in her demeanor in relation to a male v. female love. But I did have some questions about her background...

-------------------- COMPLETE AND MASSIVE SPOILERS FOR LELIANA'S SONG DLC BELOW --------------------





In Origins, I understood that Marjolaine turned Leliana over to the Orlesian authorities and she received "a traitor's punishment." However, in the DLC, Marjolaine gives her to Raleigh, who is a Ferelden nobleman, right?

This made me wonder if Leliana was perhaps captured twice...? We see her at the end in the Chantry talking about purpose, but there's nothing to say she didn't go back to Orlais, considering she tells the warden that she left Orlais because of Marjolaine's betrayal, which is not true unless she went back. So I wonder if it's possible for the timeline to go as follows...

- Leliana and co. come to Ferelden for "The Game."
- Marjolaine gives Leliana over to Raleigh for stealing Ferelden's intelligence on Orlais.
- Leliana kills Raleigh but lets Marjolaine go, believing it over. She returns to Orlais.
- Marjolaine returns to Orlais as well and frames Leliana a second time, hoping she'll die.
- Leliana flees and returns to Ferelden where she already knows some people in the Chantry. She stays there this time.

This is the only way I can reconcile what I see in the DLC with what Leliana told me. Thoughts?




-------------------- END SPOILERS FOR LELIANA'S SONG DLC --------------------

That all being said... the DLC made me love her even more. 

Modifié par FiliusMartis, 03 août 2010 - 11:15 .

[Ashaman X]

FiliusMartis wrote...

I understand where you're coming from, but I'm a bit inclined to disagree. Two of her closest friends were male, and I don't see her discarding her memories of the good men she fought with because of one snake. I've not noticed a significant difference in her demeanor in relation to a male v. female love. But I did have some questions about her background...

-------------------- COMPLETE AND MASSIVE SPOILERS FOR LELIANA'S SONG DLC BELOW --------------------





In Origins, I understood that Marjolaine turned Leliana over to the Orlesian authorities and she received "a traitor's punishment." However, in the DLC, Marjolaine gives her to Raleigh, who is a Ferelden nobleman, right?

This made me wonder if Leliana was perhaps captured twice...? We see her at the end in the Chantry talking about purpose, but there's nothing to say she didn't go back to Orlais, considering she tells the warden that she left Orlais because of Marjolaine's betrayal, which is not true unless she went back. So I wonder if it's possible for the timeline to go as follows...

- Leliana and co. come to Ferelden for "The Game."
- Marjolaine gives Leliana over to Raleigh for stealing Ferelden's intelligence on Orlais.
- Leliana kills Raleigh but lets Marjolaine go, believing it over. She returns to Orlais.
- Marjolaine returns to Orlais as well and frames Leliana a second time, hoping she'll die.
- Leliana flees and returns to Ferelden where she already knows some people in the Chantry. She stays there this time.

This is the only way I can reconcile what I see in the DLC with what Leliana told me. Thoughts?




-------------------- END SPOILERS FOR LELIANA'S SONG DLC --------------------

That all being said... the DLC made me love her even more. 

The DLC did indeed make me love her more, and I loved the ponytail look she had. I also love how she changes from the wild and naive person into the caring and sweet person she is. To see what caused that change made me appreciate it more.

As for your thoughts though, I struggle myself to reconcile whether to take Origins or the DLC as cannon. I can't see Leli being caught and captured twice. The DLC takes place while Maric is still king, so it's 5 years before Origins. Somewhere it was stated that Leli was in Lothering for 2 years, so there is a gap of about 3. Also, it's been said that Leli embellished her song, and I have a thought on that. I think that Origins is the cannon version, but that her Song was her way of telling the story, making it more "interesting", sort of like an adapted version of a book or "inspired by a real story". It's the kind of story other bards would tell, but it's not wholly true.

I love the mystery around her, trying to work out what exactly is true or not about her.

[FiliusMartis]

This post contains spoilers for Leliana's song DLC.



I looked at the dialogue again, and she says she was "being hunted in Orlais." She also says that the Orlesian guards captured her because Marjolaine had doctored some documents to make Leliana look like a traitor.  She says she did not seek Marjolaine out.  All this is completely opposite the story we see in the DLC. If we accept that the DLC was a complete embellishment, then we would still need to deal with the role of a Ferelden named Raleigh and his role in everything.

The Origins dialogue also says that the guards CAPTURED Leliana with the intent to kill her, never that they imprisoned her. Is it possible then, that Leliana is telling the truth as she knows it? Maybe she went back to Orlais during that three year gap you speak of, and Marjolaine's men hunted her in order to kill her, but told Leliana (or she assumed) that the attack was based on the papers.  Another interesting thing in her Origins dialogue is that she says, "if she thought I was coming for her, she would have me caught again."  This suggests to me that Leliana knew the guards or whatever were somehow in Marjolaine's pocket.

Furthermore, the codex entry from the DLC, An Introduction says, " I was too foolish for revelation, but doubt would bring me back, and there would be no shortage of that." whereas her Origins dialogue says "and so I fled to Ferelden, to the Chantry, and the Maker." This implies, to me, that the second incident was her revelation.

I'm not ready to accept that the DLC and the story presented in Origins are two different versions of the same event which cannot really coexist.

[Giggles_Manically]

Nice pics adneate!

Here is the final from my 2H run.





Havent played Leliana's song yet, but saw it on youtube. Its pretty obvious what happened to her in the end and it is suprising that she is so open to Male PC's to me. Maybe thats why people feel that she is warmer with female pcs.

[adneate]

Zeleen wrote...

That seems like a quick play-through.. how long did it take you?

25 Hours on Nightmare. Didn't do all the sidequests but I did most of them this one took less time than usual it's usually about 35 Hours to go from beginning to end.

FiliusMartis wrote...

This post contains spoilers for Leliana's song DLC.

The whole Leliana's Song DLC versus the story she tells in the game basically boils down to design and storytelling decision made by the development team. Obviously a $7 DLC did not have the budget to both hire a bunch of voice actors and design new enviroments that would look Orlesian. So they had to make the comprimise or re-using existing assets, however they also had to try and explain this away to the best of their abilities. Also the DLC had to fit the mold for Origins style combat, thus the invention of a set of companions for Leliana that she never mentioned at all in Origins. Honestly the only thing canonical about the DLC is Leliana and Marjolaine's reactions everything out side of that is highly suspect since they really ran with this whole "It's a Bard's Tale" thing.

[FiliusMartis]

On Leliana's Song...


Honestly, I didn't get the whole 'this is a big fat embellishment' vibe. Design and storytelling are one thing, but there are huge gaps in the story, and that's not something I tend to overlook. They didn't need to hire a bunch of voice actors (are all the new characters rehashed actors?) or design Orlesian environments. The entire plot could have unfolded in Ferelden and ended with them fleeing to Orlais and Marjolaine betraying Leliana on the docks or something.

The way it is now, Leliana's Origins sidequest feels cheapened. I feel that, especially given the three year gap previously mentioned, there is plenty of room for the truth to be a mixture of both. And while we're on it, her companions in the DLC do not violate "Origins canon" in the slightest. I do not recall her saying she was alone, and I would not expect her to tell me every single detail given how painful that aspect would be to remember.
I also want to know how difficult would it have been to make all the neat weapons and such available in Origins? I mean they're already coded and animated... D=

Modifié par FiliusMartis, 03 août 2010 - 04:59 .

[adneate]

Axekix wrote...

adneate wrote...

Also Leliana does come across a bit warmer and bit more comfortable with a female Warden, it's probably because of her past and a bit of a sexual preference towards women as opposed to men.

TBH, after playing her DLC I would think any relationship she had with a man would be complicated  to say the least.  I'm a bit surprised that she's so willing to romance a MPC.

Well as horrible and as traumatic as it was it's not something that would destroy her life forever, clearly she got some kind of psychiatric counseling in the Chantry and she was there for over two years trying to mend her life and mind. It would never be easy to talk about, but the fact that she can talk about it shows she's managed to move past it to the best of her abilities and not let it run her life or ruin her future relationships. It does characterize her relationship though as she will never engage in any form of physical intimacy until she hits the +91 Love stage, in which she wants to start it on her own terms at the time of her choosing. Also if you look at how the dialogue is structured she isn't very willing to start a romance with a MPC, almost the entire romance is initiated by the player whereas with a female PC Leliana is the one who starts it.

[Giggles_Manically]

I think she is wary about starting a romance with a male PC, and when flirting with her she almost acts like its just for fun until much later.

[adneate]

FiliusMartis wrote...

Honestly, I didn't get the whole 'this is a big fat embellishment' vibe. Design and storytelling are one thing, but there are huge gaps in the story, and that's not something I tend to overlook. They didn't need to hire a bunch of voice actors (are all the new characters rehashed actors?) or design Orlesian environments. The entire plot could have unfolded in Ferelden and ended with them fleeing to Orlais and Marjolaine betraying Leliana on the docks or something.

Well I don't know the exact detail of who is a a new VA and who is old, getting Corrine Kempa back in the studio to record a ton of dialogue wouldn't have been cheap since I believe she lives in Europe. I know Tug is voiced by Mark Meer, who does the male Commander Shepard in Mass Effect and as far as I know he's never been in a Dragon Age game until now. I think Sketch is a new VA as well, I don't remember hearing his voice anywhere before. I feel that the amount of embellishments taken was a deliberate choice to tell a highly stylized tale for a shoe-string budget while still adding something to Leliana's pre-established character in Origins. It messes with the story she told in Origins but I think they did that because the original story didn't allow for her to kill hundreds of people and have big dramatic moments like the final confrontation with Marjolaine or the betrayal scene in the garden.

[FiliusMartis]

I beg to differ. The original story has Leliana getting the documents by committing an assassination. There is no reason that the first part of it couldn't have played out exactly like it did, but replacing a lot of random legwork in the market with said assassination and then meeting Marjolaine to plant them. The betrayal scene in the garden would need only the addition of Marjolaine blaming the papers on Leliana, or something to that extent. The final confrontation with Marjolaine need not be omitted either, but I would prefer her whole "you're like me" thing be saved for Origins and replaced with a "they're going to be looking for you in Orlais" type thing.



Embellishment and detail are fine but a complete reworking of the story makes me sad panda. That being said, we're talking about Raleigh and what he and his men did to Leliana as though it is canon. Furthermore she sees Adaia, someone who exists but who she shouldn't know about in most cases, in the Denerim dungeon.



My point in all this is not to convince you, agree to disagree if you will, but either the betrayal started in Denerim, or they tossed canon story aside for the sake of a "stylized tale" when they did not need to do so... which is a rather poor choice, in my opinion.

[adneate]

FiliusMartis wrote...

My point in all this is not to convince you, agree to disagree if you will, but either the betrayal started in Denerim, or they tossed canon story aside for the sake of a "stylized tale" when they did not need to do so... which is a rather poor choice, in my opinion.

BioWare has made quite a few poor choices lately the worst being to sell themselves to EA.

Edit: And for the record I wasn't saying your idea was bad merely stating why they did what they did, Gaider defended the embellishments and if you know anything about how he operates once he thinks something is better because of X he'll never relent. They did toss the canon story aside and they believe they were justified in doing so.

Modifié par adneate, 03 août 2010 - 05:43 .

[Giggles_Manically]

EA is the enemy of all true gamers the world over.

[FiliusMartis]

Really? Where was that? Not that I don't believe you just... that's messed up. That's really really messed up. I loved this DLC... I was trying to salvage it in my own mind I suppose.



Oh optimism... I should have known better than to consider you in the face of Dragon Age.

[adneate]

David Gaider wrote...



Leliana's Song is a story being told by Leliana, and if you listen she playfully says at the end that the details change with the telling. I guess bards aren't overly pedantic about consistency. I can relate.

[FiliusMartis]

Ugh... I disapprove of the usage of pedantic there. And yes, I can accept detail changing, but we've gone beyond details now haven't we? They retconned it. I disapprove -75.
It's still a good play, but... what happened to those papers? lol

Modifié par FiliusMartis, 03 août 2010 - 06:03 .

[adneate]

Well in light of the massive retcons they're doing to the entire universe in DA2 I think Leliana's Song is almost easy to accept in comparison.

[Giggles_Manically]

I dont think they have retconned anything yet.

The Horned Qunari are just additions tha we haven seen yet.

[adneate]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

I dont think they have retconned anything yet.
The Horned Qunari are just additions tha we haven seen yet.

They're retconning Elves, Dwarves, Qunari and Darkspawn. I would say chaning every race expect humans is pretty fundamental.

[Giggles_Manically]

What is exactly being done to the other races?



Also the Bow Replacer Mod is very nice.

[adneate]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

What is exactly being done to the other races?

Also the Bow Replacer Mod is very nice.

Don't know yet they've only shown the retconned Qunari I fear for the Elves.

And Bow replacer is very nice.

Edit: Should say we've seen the Darkspawn Hurlocks they all look like Skeltor in a chainmail Gimp suit now.

Modifié par adneate, 03 août 2010 - 06:48 .

[Giggles_Manically]

Yah since I think Sten would have a hard time pulling some bows.

[Axekix]

adneate wrote...

Also if you look at how the dialogue is structured she isn't very willing to start a romance with a MPC, almost the entire romance is initiated by the player whereas with a female PC Leliana is the one who starts it.

What I mean is, a MPC can come on to her very  strongly and she doesn't hesitate at all.  I mean you can have the fruit convo as soon as you meet her in Lothering!

Given the fact that she apparently prefers females, and that her last intimate contact with a male was when she was captured... her romance with an MPC feels easier than it should be. 

Then again, maybe that is why she is so "clingy" once you do start her romance.  She seems much less jealous when talking to a FPC about Alistair than a MPC about Morrigan.

[adneate]

Axekix wrote...

Then again, maybe that is why she is so "clingy" once you do start her romance.  She seems much less jealous when talking to a FPC about Alistair than a MPC about Morrigan.

Indeed and her background is that she was Orphaned at a young age, It's not unreasonable for this to manifest itself as a deep rooted desire to tightly hold on to those she cares about since she has nobody when you first meet her. The difference between the two conversations probably has more to do with her opinion of the other person involved she seems to view Alistair in a positive light who she believes would be good to the Warden (if you refuse to break it off with one of them she'll leave and tell you to go with Alistair) whereas she thinks Morrigan is a cruel uncaring individual who will only hurt someone she cares about.

[Giggles_Manically]

I dont think anyone in the group likes Morrigan, outside the Warden and Dog.

I wish a writer would tell us this stuff, maybe if we PM one of them they would tell us. Gaider explains Morrigan and Loghain all the time so why not on Leliana.

edit: Top picture:

 

Modifié par Giggles_Manically, 03 août 2010 - 09:32 .

[Axekix]

adneate wrote...

she seems to view Alistair in a positive light who she believes would be good to the Warden (if you refuse to break it off with one of them she'll leave and tell you to go with Alistair) whereas she thinks Morrigan is a cruel uncaring individual who will only hurt someone she cares about.

Yep... Leli was right...