9727 réponses à ce sujet

[Bruddajakka]

Yeah and I think part of the reason her relationship with a male warden is so weird is due to the fact she's probably never been romantically involved with a man before. You get the impression that Margie was her first love, and even though she's probably had sex with a man before due to being a Bard it doesn't seem like she's been in love with one which is why she acts all weird, and gets deathly possessive at times.

[Viva la France]

Bruddajakka wrote...

Yeah and I think part of the reason her relationship with a male warden is so weird is due to the fact she's probably never been romantically involved with a man before. You get the impression that Margie was her first love, and even though she's probably had sex with a man before due to being a Bard it doesn't seem like she's been in love with one which is why she acts all weird, and gets deathly possessive at times.

well figuring she didn't meet Marjolaine until after her days with Lady Cecile.  I'm going to guess Lel was in her late teenhood, early adulthood when she met Marjolaine.  According to some brief dialogue from M in the dlc, Lel was living on the streets.  I think she had flings with alot of guys, liked them.  I think the male warden is the first male to ever be of influence to Leliana, so I can see why she would fall for him.

[Bruddajakka]

Yeah I really don't. She was way too devoted to Margie for her to have had a bunch of flings. It very much comes off as a first love turned really bad thing.

[Viva la France]

Bruddajakka wrote...

Yeah I really don't. She was way too devoted to Margie for her to have had a bunch of flings. It very much comes off as a first love turned really bad thing.

Idk she makes a comment in her DLC about how pleasurable it can be as a bard.

[Bruddajakka]

Yeah I don't have any doubts about her having had sexual encounters when she was a bard. I just don't see her as having had a bunch of relationships before Margie. It's quite clear she's the one who trained Leli.

[Viva la France]

Bruddajakka wrote...

Yeah I don't have any doubts about her having had sexual encounters when she was a bard. I just don't see her as having had a bunch of relationships before Margie. It's quite clear she's the one who trained Leli.

flings and relationships are different.  There is no doubt in my mind that Lel liked some of her victims because she regretted what she did to them.  Maybe thats why she is so possesive with a male warden.  Yea she was loyal to M, but M taught her how to seduce men, so I dion't think M was worried about Lel and her sexual encounters.

[wickedgoodreed]

Viva la France wrote...
 
Feels like the only reason she likes a female warden is because she reminds her of her psycho mentor she had an affair with.

I think with a male, she acts like it's a new start for her.  If you look at her dialogue with males, she wants males to take charge of the relationship.

I think that's a gross oversimplification of Leliana and her relationship with women. If it suits you to believe that, then by all means go ahead, but I think Leliana is a much deeper character than you're giving her credit for.

Viva la France wrote...

we all know how gulliable Lel can be sometimes, like her shale banter.  Marjolaine used love to control people.  For example that priest in Leliana's dlc.  In Marjolaines codex Lel even said noone knew her outside from being a bard.

So in my opinion Marjolaine knew Lel hungered for someone to love her, and she became that love to manipulate Lel because she knew Lel would do anything for her.

Just because Shale calls Leliana gullible for her faith, doesn't mean that Leliana is gullible (Shale later apologizes for saying that by the way). I personally don't think that Leliana is gullible, blinded by love, perhaps, but not gullible. As far as Marjolaine goes...Marjolaine may have changed over time or been manipulating Leliana all along, but either way that doesn't change the truth of what Leliana felt for her: love.

Modifié par wickedgoodreed, 13 septembre 2010 - 06:51 .

[Viva la France]

Yea Lel loved Marjolaine, no doubt. I'm not saying that. Leliana is a hard character to read, only thing she was clear about was loving Marjolaine. But did M ever return the feeling to Lel?  According to the DLC codex M didn't share much about herself, the only past romances Lel knew of M's was she was a rich widow of an Orlesian Noblemen.

Lel is pretty gulliable not with just Shale. For example during the Leliana/ Morrigan romance, you can lie to her saying you were just discussing business with Morrigan, even though she saw Morrigan walking seductivley towards your tent she still believes you.  Same with Alistair and Zevran, she'll accept your lies even though she has proof against you.

Modifié par Viva la France, 13 septembre 2010 - 07:11 .

[Viva la France]

ejoslin wrote...

I have a question for people that play males who romance Leliana:

There's a conversation you have with her about her being a bard. There's a male-only part of this conversation which is quite flirtatious, but does not lead to the romance starting. However, there are a few comments where it seems it would be appropriate for the romance to start there. Like when Leliana admits she finds the warden attractive (and that him trying to charm her would be something to see).

There is nothing in the script notes that indicate a romance should be started, but I wanted to ask opinions here. I can do something, at the very least as an optional file, if guys think it would be appropriate.

She pretty much is charmed at the end of the convo and says your an interesting person.  If males wanted a second romance starter that could be it.

[ejoslin]

Whacka wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Whacka wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

the love flag is different, though. There's no dialog in there that is different, though. Hmmm, I'll take a look at the coding itself -- I've found errors in that as well.

Well, even if the flag is supposed to start a romance, I don't see anything about that line that tells me that she loves me. In fact, all it tells me is that she loves someone without saying someone specific. And it really doesn't feel like it should start a romance.

I can put that line back in if she is romance eligible -- the main problem with that will be, well, then you could get it as low as interested :/  Hmmmmm, I will have to think on this some more.  What a mess.

Ok, how's this?  
 
I... I think I have ==> only if she's in love.
So far, things are not so bad ==> only if the romance is not cut off or if the romance is active I suppose (which could be a bit messy for people who haven't dumped her so I'll add a line saying, "you are my dear friend" or something like that to not start the romance and "I'm so glad you feel that way" to allow it to start or something like that)
It's not so bad ==> going to everyone else

Anyway, this will take me a few days because I have to make sure all the break up lines now cut off the romance since I'll be using that flag.

That sounds OK to me.

I also like the romance starter with the flowers, when you ask Leliana for a kiss (the flowers can be used to restart a romance that was cut off earlier, perhaps (just like Morrigan and the mirror)?)... But I think that editing both the flowers as the dialogue would be quite the task, wouldn't it?

Awww, poo! Too much to think about. I'll need to think about all of this... I'll go through every options that were given again.

Edit: You are actually avoiding the offer you made earlier to which I agreed...  (You know, with the DT-compatible version without the flag in the line "And I... I think I have.")

You can just mail the file to me if you want. Then other cannot get it.

Viva la France wrote...
Now that I'm reading those lines I can clearly see the "Are you fishing for compliments." was meant for males and the you remind me of Marjolaine was for females.

Hmmmm, it has a plot flag that is set for when Leliana's approval is at Adore and the Warden is a male. So to get that line, you must have already started a romance. Though it makes for a nice romance starter, too...

While it would be easy to put the flags in, it isn't always appropriate.  It's great if you romance her, but if you don't, there can be issues.

Anyway, no, I'll get that file out for you, the one with the flag taken away, but I can't work on it right now Unfortunately, I have to redo my repairs every time I reload DT's builder2builder file.  Anyway I'll get to it tonight or tomorrow morning and send you a link to it.  Then I'll go over the code and make sure that her romance does get cut off properly so people don't run into problems of accidentally restarting it (which still is a problem for female wardens, actually). 

[Giggles_Manically]

I still think saying "So do I get a kiss" with the flower gift is the best place to restart/start the romance.

[Zjarcal]

Bruddajakka wrote...

Yeah and I think part of the reason her relationship with a male warden is so weird is due to the fact she's probably never been romantically involved with a man before. You get the impression that Margie was her first love, and even though she's probably had sex with a man before due to being a Bard it doesn't seem like she's been in love with one which is why she acts all weird, and gets deathly possessive at times.

I think you just nailed it in the head.

It's quite clear that Marjolaine was Leliana's only true love prior to the Warden. Obviously the bard lifestyle calls for random sexual encounters every now and then, but it certainly ain't love.

This I why Leli is more comfortable with a woman. The lack of an "I love you" line for males doesn't mean that she doesn't love them, it means that she's not comfortable enough to say it. With a female on the other hand, she feels right at home.

[SnakeHelah]

I think, for me, starting the romance is best after Leliana's quest, I mean, on my "perfect" playthrough, I took dialogues from each companion once every main/side quest, this way it kinda felt more natural because, let's say you can for example, while in Lothering just talk every possible dialogue out of Leliana, Sten, Alistair, etc and gain a high approval, even with gifts, you can easily be immediately friends/care/warm etc. with Leli, or any of the starting chars. That just doesn't make sense...
So I got the Marjolaine dialogue fairly in the 50-60 % completion of the main quest chain, after that I just initiate the romance (well the love status anyway) at the dialogues, can't remember them now, but they are kinda different depending on if you harden her or not. I haven't romanced her as a female Warden, and I think it's different in that situation too, sooo yeah. For me just feels more natural, since deep and caring relationships develop over some longer time, I think.

Modifié par SnakeHelah, 13 septembre 2010 - 08:47 .

[Zjarcal]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

I still think saying "So do I get a kiss" with the flower gift is the best place to restart/start the romance.

I agree. Similar to how the mirror works for Morrigan to restart a romance that has been cutoff.

[Giggles_Manically]

SnakeHelah wrote...

I think, for me, starting the romance is best after Leliana's quest, I mean, on my "perfect" playthrough, I took dialogues from each companion once every main/side quest, this way it kinda felt more natural because, let's say you can for example, while in Lothering just talk every possible dialogue out of Leliana, Sten, Alistair, etc and gain a high approval, even with gifts, you can easily be immediately friends/care/warm etc. with Leli, or any of the starting chars. That just doesn't make sense...
So I got the Marjolaine dialogue fairly in the 50-60 % completion of the main quest chain, after that I just initiate the romance (well the love status anyway) at the dialogues, can't remember them now, but they are kinda different depending on if you harden her or not. I haven't romanced her as a female Warden, and I think it's different in that situation too, sooo yeah. For me just feels more natural, since deep and caring relationships develop over some longer time, I think.

I agree with this. I hope in DA2 they dont let all the dialouge burn out so fast.

[Zjarcal]

SnakeHelah wrote...

I think, for me, starting the romance is best after Leliana's quest, I mean, on my "perfect" playthrough, I took dialogues from each companion once every main/side quest, this way it kinda felt more natural because, let's say you can for example, while in Lothering just talk every possible dialogue out of Leliana, Sten, Alistair, etc and gain a high approval, even with gifts, you can easily be immediately friends/care/warm etc. with Leli, or any of the starting chars. That just doesn't make sense...
So I got the Marjolaine dialogue fairly in the 50-60 % completion of the main quest chain, after that I just initiate the romance (well the love status anyway) at the dialogues, can't remember them now, but they are kinda different depending on if you harden her or not. I haven't romanced her as a female Warden, and I think it's different in that situation too, sooo yeah. For me just feels more natural, since deep and caring relationships develop over some longer time, I think.

Totally agree. I also take it slowly with the dialogues and never use regular gifts (only plot gifts). For instance on my current run, it wasn't until I was done with Redcliffe, Nature of the Beast, Circle Tower, and Orzammar, that I reached max approval with Leli by doing her personal quest. And even after the love making convo, I still have some dialogues left that I haven't used.

It really does feel much more natural this way.

[Nerdage]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

SnakeHelah wrote...

I think, for me, starting the romance is best after Leliana's quest, I mean, on my "perfect" playthrough, I took dialogues from each companion once every main/side quest, this way it kinda felt more natural because, let's say you can for example, while in Lothering just talk every possible dialogue out of Leliana, Sten, Alistair, etc and gain a high approval, even with gifts, you can easily be immediately friends/care/warm etc. with Leli, or any of the starting chars. That just doesn't make sense...
So I got the Marjolaine dialogue fairly in the 50-60 % completion of the main quest chain, after that I just initiate the romance (well the love status anyway) at the dialogues, can't remember them now, but they are kinda different depending on if you harden her or not. I haven't romanced her as a female Warden, and I think it's different in that situation too, sooo yeah. For me just feels more natural, since deep and caring relationships develop over some longer time, I think.

I agree with this. I hope in DA2 they dont let all the dialouge burn out so fast.

I imagine that having defined chapters in DA2 will spread dialogue out over the whole game, much more so than having it dependant only on approval anyway.

[Giggles_Manically]

I would preorder DA2, if I knew that I would hear even just two people say:

Person 1;So did you hear what happened?

Person 2: What happened?

1: Down in Ferelden, they say the hero of fereldan dissapeared and no one has found him/her.

2: Oh really? Do you know anything else?

1: Not really only that him/her. some Orlesian Bard, and their dog just were gone from Denerim one day.

2: Ok.

[Zjarcal]

@Giggles:



Warden, Lels, Dog.



TOTAL WIN!

[Giggles_Manically]

Zjarcal wrote...

@Giggles:

Warden, Lels, Dog.

TOTAL WIN!

Why, thank you very much.

[Ashaman X]

Viva la France wrote...

Bruddajakka wrote...

Yeah I don't have any doubts about her having had sexual encounters when she was a bard. I just don't see her as having had a bunch of relationships before Margie. It's quite clear she's the one who trained Leli.

flings and relationships are different.  There is no doubt in my mind that Lel liked some of her victims because she regretted what she did to them.  Maybe thats why she is so possesive with a male warden.  Yea she was loyal to M, but M taught her how to seduce men, so I dion't think M was worried about Lel and her sexual encounters.

I posted some thoughts I had on this a while back, but it's worth repeating here. I believe that Leli never had any childhood friends to form relationships with. Her mom died when she was young, and I'm guessing Lady Cecilie was kind, but distant. Marjolaine saw this and used it to manipulate Leli. Leli, not knowing any better, couldn't understand what a toxic relationship it actually was. So that's why I believe Marjolaine's betrayal was doubly painful, and why Leli "clings" (not in a bad way!) so much to your Warden, as she simply doesn't have anyone else.

As for Leli's sexual encounters, I'm sure she had more than a few with both sexes. I also believe this is why she perhaps seems to be less open with a male Warden than a female, as so far she had only loved a woman before. Sort of like nerves at trying something new and different. Nonetheless, in a few years of being together, the love and passion Leli has would be the same for male or female Warden. In the end, it doesn't matter if Leli comes across slightly easier with a female, more reserved with a male, she simply loves equally and passionately.

[ejoslin]

You can only ask for the kiss if the romance is already active...

[Zjarcal]

ejoslin wrote...

You can only ask for the kiss if the romance is already active...

Yeah, I just remembered that. Too bad it can't work like with the mirror for Morrigan, where the gift dialogue includes a romance starter line.

[ejoslin]

 Ok, my Leliana fans and, ummm, hopefully beta testers...  I have the Dialog Tweaks compatible version up here.  

Since I was lazy and didn't write the readme yet, here is what SHOULD happen...

-Leliana's "Your Zevran" conversation no longer loops.
-Leliana's declaration of love is different if she's hardened.
-Leliana will respond appropriately the warden is marrying Alistair/Anora. If she is the love interest and hardened, the proper dialog will trigger. If she is not involved in the warden, she will no longer break up with them.
-There are now a couple of appropriate responses for a gay/bisexual male warden when Leliana confronts him at "Care" if he's slept with Zevran.
-Leliana will no longer confront a male warden who had agreed to marry Anora before the landsmeet but does not end up engaged to her.
-Leliana now gives the proper response if hardened when asked what her future plans are.
-When discussing the afterlife, a choice that was only supposed to be visible to humans now actually appears for humans but no one else.
-Leliana will now always declare her feelings and proposition the warden after she falls in love.
-The dialog that should have only been for females eligible for a romance is now only available to a warden she is in love with (both genders -- I'm justifying this as in the vanilla game, ALL wardens got this line)**
-The dialog that love-eligible wardens was supposed to receive now appears if Leliana is romance-available (and will start the romance).
-When the warden breaks up with Leliana at adore, this will have a very low disapproval and an actual break up.
- fixes a coding error in this script that caused at least one line that should trigger for a male warden at adore with Leliana to trigger for a female instead. A different line will now trigger for females in a romance with Leliana when she asks if Leliana ever felt the same way about someone else.

** I will probably change this in the official version to women who are romance eligible, but in a way that it works instead of showing up for ALL females.  Anyone who is romance eligible will still get the second choice there (which was appearing for nobody), but will recognize the "romance cut off" flag.

This is not a finished version; I need to make sure that if the romance is cut off cold at the beginning, it's completely cut off.  After this is tested to my satisfaction, I will work on the non-DT version.

 you all!  Let me know if I need to upload again or if you want me to e-mail a copy to you!  Ummm, via PM.

Edit: Forgot to add, now the comment, "So does the hero get the girl," will only appear for male wardens in a romance with Leliana.

To install, just extract the files into your override directory.  Make sure all previous versions of my fixes to Leliana are deleted (should be in a clearly named folder).  Also, make sure you do not have a copy of leliana.dlg/dlb in your dialog tweaks .93a folder.  The rest of the files ARE needed (if using the manual version).

Modifié par ejoslin, 13 septembre 2010 - 11:28 .

[Zjarcal]

OMG ejoslin, you are so amazing!

I'll be doing some testing tonight. I'll let you know if everything is working as intended.

One observation, I never got the "So does the hero get the girl" with my FemWardens. It was always "the heroine".

EDIT: Quick question, if I'm using the dazip version of DT, will there be any conflicts?

Modifié par Zjarcal, 14 septembre 2010 - 12:40 .