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[Ashaman X]

The idea of a page or so back about Leli starting her own branch of the Chantry sounds interesting, but I don't know if it would survive for long. She'd need a massive backing so that she won't be seen as a heretic. Look at the schism between the two existing Chantries already. If she does start something, I think it would stay small out of necessesity, but it could survive.



As for defiling the Ashes, I haven't done it nor will I. Even if I ever played a hateful character, he/she would be smart enough to realise that doing something like that would be stupid for their own safe future. Anyway, I enjoyed how Leli was in awe that I got the ashes, but that it didn't seem to develop into long term hero worship. A relationship wouldn't be able to survive that.

[Giggles_Manically]

Leliana does not really seem to be the type of person who would start her own branch of the Chantry.

That seems like something far to large for her to attempt, and from her dialouge she seems to hold religion to be something very personal and something you arrive at yourself, not something to be forced on people.

[Xilizhra]

As for defiling the Ashes, I haven't done it nor will I. Even if I ever played a hateful character, he/she would be smart enough to realise that doing something like that would be stupid for their own safe future. Anyway, I enjoyed how Leli was in awe that I got the ashes, but that it didn't seem to develop into long term hero worship. A relationship wouldn't be able to survive that.

Why would it be a stupid decision for their own future?

Also, I may be unique, but in a way... being responsible for what might qualify as humanity's Third Sin (even if I'm an elf), pissing off the Maker enough to turn away from the world yet again, is sort of awesome, in a way.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 18 octobre 2010 - 03:22 .

[Giggles_Manically]

Xilizhra wrote...

As for defiling the Ashes, I haven't done it nor will I. Even if I ever played a hateful character, he/she would be smart enough to realise that doing something like that would be stupid for their own safe future. Anyway, I enjoyed how Leli was in awe that I got the ashes, but that it didn't seem to develop into long term hero worship. A relationship wouldn't be able to survive that.

Why would it be a stupid decision for their own future?

Also, I may be unique, but in a way... being responsible for what might qualify as humanity's Third Sin (even if I'm an elf), pissing off the Maker enough to turn away from the world yet again, is sort of awesome, in a way.

Or completely stupid if someone finds out what you did, or the chantry gets into a war against a bunch of dumb ass cultists and their pet lizard.

Kolgrim and company are nothing more than a bunch of inbred hicks, with a nasty streak of evil, hardly what I would consider as people I would identify with.

[flexxdk]

I never have liked Kolgrim and I never will.

He's just another hysterical two year old to me who unnecessarily screams even when you're one dang meter away from him. Besides, nothing justifies the deaths of the soldiers from Redcliffe. Nothing.

If he only would let me waltz in the Gauntlet so I can get pinch of the Ashes without all the fighting, we'd be straight.

If I only could tell Kolgrim this...:
"I have a better offer for you. How about you letting me pass so I don't have to put any effort in shoving this dagger up your ***?"

[Xilizhra]

Or completely stupid if someone finds out what you did, or the chantry gets into a war against a bunch of dumb ass cultists and their pet lizard.

The epilogue, if you destroy the Ashes, makes it clear that none of this happens.

He's just another hysterical two year old to me who unnecessarily screams even when you're one dang meter away from him. Besides, nothing justifies the deaths of the soldiers from Redcliffe. Nothing.

Well, from their point of view, they're terrified of what Giggles just mentioned; outsiders finding out about them and wrecking their ****. This is also the purpose behind their impersonation campaign; Genitivi's cracked their secrecy, and they want to repurpose him to throw everyone who might be on the trail off of it again.

[Giggles_Manically]

The problem is that Kolgrim and his cult are monster who murder people, and brainwash others, not to mention torture others.



No matter how nice you try to paint them, or claim that its ok to help them to snub the chantry, you still side with monsters. Normally most people have trouble doing that.



I for one dont even hesitate before turning them into paste, and robbing their temple, while killing their "god" if you call it that. They are a cult based on idiocy, and a lie, the world is better with them dead.

[Xilizhra]

No matter how nice you try to paint them, or claim that its ok to help them to snub the chantry, you still side with monsters. Normally most people have trouble doing that.

Oh, I'm not saying that they're nice. I just prefer to avoid bloodshed, and the price for that is killing a nigh-robotic guardian and destroying an artifact that no one could get to anyway; I don't consider it overly high.

I for one dont even hesitate before turning them into paste, and robbing their temple, while killing their "god" if you call it that. They are a cult based on idiocy, and a lie, the world is better with them dead.

There's no real reason to think that they're less right than the orthodox Chantry, you know. It's also killed far more people, going all the way up to cultural genocide with the elves.

[Giggles_Manically]

Big hairy sodding deal.



That happened in the past, centuries ago to people who no longer live, done by men who died so long ago no one can even recall them.



The cult exists in the here and in the now, which is where I judge things, they are the ones in front of me, not the chantry, and they are standing in my way. I dont give aid to monsters, and I most certainly dont stand beside lunatics who justify the murder of innocent people.



Kolgrim is a monster, and his delusions, and plans ended when took his head off.

[Xilizhra]

Ah well. I won't condemn you for your choice, certainly; it was made for the right reasons.



(Though I still see no reason to believe that he's any more delusional than, say, Leliana.)

[Giggles_Manically]

Xilizhra wrote...

Ah well. I won't condemn you for your choice, certainly; it was made for the right reasons.

(Though I still see no reason to believe that he's any more delusional than, say, Leliana.)

She misinterpreted a dream. which did happen.

A delusion is where you see something that is not there from either stress, pain, sickness, or drugs.
Kolgrim is delusional for seeing Andraste, instead of the Dragon which he firmly believes. Making him delusional.
Which is evidenced by the Dragon being killable, if it was what he claimed it was it should not die, however since it can be killed it renders it as another dragon.

Leliana had a dream, where she thought that she saw the blight, and had to stop it. That is not a delusion, nor did she hear voices. She said in fact "its like the maker said" not "the maker said".

Damn I should be a lawyer.

[Xilizhra]

Which is evidenced by the Dragon being killable, if it was what he claimed it was it should not die, however since it can be killed it renders it as another dragon.

Um...

ANDRASTE THE PROPHET WAS KILLABLE TOO.

[Giggles_Manically]

Xilizhra wrote...

Which is evidenced by the Dragon being killable, if it was what he claimed it was it should not die, however since it can be killed it renders it as another dragon.

Um...
ANDRASTE THE PROPHET WAS KILLABLE TOO.

Except that he claimed she was reborn, unstoppable, and even more glorious than before.
His delusion was that the Dragon was invincible and I dismissed that claim.


Proving he was delusional. 

[Xilizhra]

I'm not sure if that counts as delusional, so much as just plain wrong. But I also sense that this argument is pointless.

[Giggles_Manically]

Xilizhra wrote...

I'm not sure if that counts as delusional, so much as just plain wrong. But I also sense that this argument is pointless.

True mostly because you are the only one in the room who wants to side with Indy 2 knock offs.

[OldMan91]

There is no need to be hostile Giggles. It's two different points of view on the Chantry and the Dragon cultists, and that's that. I can definitely understand both arguments. Usually I don't side with them or defile the ashes, just to be on the safe side (and also because I can't bear to watch or hear Leliana when she condemns you for defiling the ashes, though I have no problem with killing Wynne).

[Xilizhra]

Oh, perhaps.



I don't personally believe in Kolgrim's hype, but my own Wardens are, among other things, curious to a fault and want the information from the dragon's blood, among other things.

[Lenimph]

All I have to say is this, many prophets are deemed delusional, insane, or criminal. Jesus for example was a rebel in the name of love was crucified for it, and betrayed by friends. His teachings were lost only to be picked up again and twisted. There is no evidence that Andraste is any less insane then Kolgrim, or that Leliana is either.

If your going to define someone's mystical revelation or belief as crazy. What gives you the right to say that someone else's is not? A dream could mean nothing more then a bad acid trip. Scientifically speaking the importance and functions of dreams are still under question.  Leliana basing her revelation on a dream doesn't make it any more valid.  Andraste talked to someone who wouldn't talk to anyone else... At least Kolgrim's cult was actually gaining a power from the dragon blood.

Also someone who starts a new schism or branch of religion doesn't necessarily have to do it in their own lifetime. Their beliefs could be spread and brought to attention by someone else, and Leliana being a bard... with quite a bit of fame after helping the warden stop the blight, it doesn't seem unlikely to me at all.

Modifié par Lenimph, 18 octobre 2010 - 07:19 .

[Xilizhra]

To clarify, I don't think that either Leliana or Kolgrim is insane (though Kolgrim is a bit of a gray area depending on how well someone's mind can hold a dragon's genetic memory).

[Zeleen]

**peeking in from work** any word on this week's prompt?

[Giggles_Manically]

No wicked still has not posted it yet.

I think may issue with Kolgrim is that my solutions to most problems is:
Shoot first, shoot again, shoot some more, reload, shoot again, shot them for good measure and once done, then ask questions. Honestly no sane person would side with you after you killed DOZENS of his/her followers. And then be fine with it.

Modifié par Giggles_Manically, 18 octobre 2010 - 07:28 .

[flexxdk]

Kolgrim's insane. How could he possibly think that the High Dragon was Andraste? I bet he came up with that all by himself. And then he started to believe it.

Seriously, if I was Kolgrim I would never side with the Warden considering that he / she just killed almost if not all of Kolgrim's followers.

But I think we're getting a bit off-topic here... Perhaps we should talk more about Leliana and shoes and the like and less about Kolgrim's madness?
Just a thought.

[Zjarcal]

Just to throw in my two cents about the Ashes quest, I've never have and never will defile the ashes. Desecrating a corpse is just wrong in my view. The fact that a bunch of maniacs are the ones asking you to do it doesn't help either. I do understand Xilizhra's point about not wanting to kill the villagers, but considering they turn hostile with minimum provocation, I can't sympathize with them.



Also, even if you avoid the bloody altar and the backroom of the store, you will still get attacked for no reason by father Eilrik. So even if I was planning on a peaceful solution, they shot themselves in the foot.



As for Kolgrim, I feel he's just a loony toon. While I always kill him right away, I did enjoy making him think I would defile the ashes and then watch him get all pissed when "Andraste" had not yet been restored to her glory.



Which brings me to a question. How exactly does Kolgrim know that "Andraste" hasn't been restored to her glory? I mean, does defiling the ashes actually have a noticeable effect on the Dragon?

[Lenimph]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

No wicked still has not posted it yet.

I think may issue with Kolgrim is that my solutions to most problems is:
Shoot first, shoot again, shoot some more, reload, shoot again, shot them for good measure and once done, then ask questions. Honestly no sane person would side with you after you killed DOZENS of his/her followers. And then be fine with it.

I think Kolgrim realized if he didn't get you to join his side he was going to die, and Kolgrim doesn't blindly side with the Warden, he only does if the Warden agrees to his terms. Which makes sense to me...

But anyway...
 

[Giggles_Manically]

Whacka wrote...

Kolgrim's insane. How could he possibly think that the High Dragon was Andraste? I bet he came up with that all by himself. And then he started to believe it.

Seriously, if I was Kolgrim I would never side with the Warden considering that he / she just killed almost if not all of Kolgrim's followers.

But I think we're getting a bit off-topic here... Perhaps we should talk more about Leliana and shoes and the like and less about Kolgrim's madness?
Just a thought.