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[Special_Agent_Goodwrench]

I actually refused taking Leliana anywhere with me as Amell because I did not want to intimidate her to get back in line. I just couldn't do that. Not to her.
Alistair and Wynne, however, were another story.

Modifié par DrunkDeadman, 07 novembre 2010 - 07:31 .

[Bruddajakka]

You know even with my more pragmatic characters I've never left the anvil intact. Supported Branka, and killed Caradin yes. But I always drive her to suicide after. And there also some places where I just don't take certain character.



I've never taking Leli to the Anvil of the void, and I never take Morrigan to Redcliffe.

[wickedgoodreed]

I could never intimidate her either. My last playthrough was a Mahariel who I had fully intended to make some of the darker choices in the game with, only this time I decided not to leave Leliana behind...She actually managed to talk the warden down from most of them. xD

It was kind of fun though. Leli chimed in more than she usually does in most of my playthroughs, and she likes it when you listen to her.  In some places I actually wound up with more approval from her than I would have if I just went with the "good" option straight away. Go figure!

[Bruddajakka]

It's not so much of an issue if you've harden her. She'll usually go along with most of your decisions as long as their not downright evil.

[Special_Agent_Goodwrench]

I just can't bring myself to harden her. Compared to the un-hardening dialogue options, the hardening ones don't feel right to me. That said, I did actually harden her on my Amell playtrough, but still didn't take her with me. Just feels wrong having a hardened Leli around.

[Zjarcal]

What bothers me about hardened Leli is her desire to return to Orlais. That's really it. It's just not healthy for her to wish to return to deal with the same people that made her life a nightmare.



By the way, this week's prompt was an epic failure!

[KnightofPhoenix]

Zjarcal wrote...

What bothers me about hardened Leli is her desire to return to Orlais. That's really it. It's just not healthy for her to wish to return to deal with the same people that made her life a nightmare.

If Marjolaine is dead, I think hardened Leliana leads expeditions in the deep roads.

[Zjarcal]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

What bothers me about hardened Leli is her desire to return to Orlais. That's really it. It's just not healthy for her to wish to return to deal with the same people that made her life a nightmare.

If Marjolaine is dead, I think hardened Leliana leads expeditions in the deep roads.

Oh, I actually meant a dialogue you have with her in camp, when you ask her "what will you do when all this is over?". Even if Marjolaine is dead she'll still say she wants to go deal with all the people who may wish to kill her in the future.

Whether or not she actually pursues that option (she may after her Deep Roads expedition), it's the idea that she wants to do that which turns me off.

[Bruddajakka]

Though it's more about tying up lose ends then outright killing them, and she says as much.



Chantry Leli just makes me feel like she's hiding from her problems behind Andraste's skirt rather then confronting them.

[Special_Agent_Goodwrench]

Zjarcal wrote...
By the way, this week's prompt was an epic failure!

I am working on it, fair mistress!
Had a nice burst of inspiration 2 days ago. Not much yesterday though. I'm almost done with it though. Should post it soon, after I revise the writing and edit anything that needs editing.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Zjarcal wrote...
Oh, I actually meant a dialogue you have with her in camp, when you ask her "what will you do when all this is over?". Even if Marjolaine is dead she'll still say she wants to go deal with all the people who may wish to kill her in the future.

Oh right, I forgot about that.
Yea, that might be seen as unhealthy. But I htink she could be persuaded to remain in Ferelden by a friend.

[Zjarcal]

Bruddajakka wrote...
Chantry Leli just makes me feel like she's hiding from her problems behind Andraste's skirt rather then confronting them.

Don't get me wrong. I also wish that she just abandoned the Chantry, but I just don't like the other option. You could argue that a hardened Leli in love with the Warden is the best ending for her since she stays away from the Chantry and doesn't actually go back to Orlais (unless the Warden also wanted to go).

Still, I really like hearing her "what will you do after all this is over" dialogue when unhardened. What can I say, I'm a softie.

[Bruddajakka]

Yeah guess it depends on your respective of what's healthier for her. I like to harden her because she ends up being a lot more proactive, and stops hiding behind the Chantry.

Some people like to leave unhardened because of how sweet she is.

Modifié par Bruddajakka, 07 novembre 2010 - 10:15 .

[wickedgoodreed]

I don't harden her. The way that particular conversation plays out, I don't think I ever could without feeling really manipulative. The way I see it, hardening her puts her at risk for falling back into bad patterns that have hurt her in the past and compromises her convictions, which I admire her for.

I'm not religious in RL and have mixed feelings about the Chantry itself in the game, but I don't see why she should "just abandon the Chantry" when her views on it are very reasonable to begin with. I guess I really don't see her as hiding from her problems behind the Chantry though so much as recovering from a traumatic experience with the help of her faith.

Modifié par wickedgoodreed, 07 novembre 2010 - 10:33 .

[Special_Agent_Goodwrench]

@wicked

My exact thoughts on the subject. I couldn't explain it any better.

Modifié par DrunkDeadman, 07 novembre 2010 - 10:35 .

[Zjarcal]

wickedgoodreed wrote...

I don't harden her. The way that particular conversation plays out, I don't think I ever could without feeling really manipulative. The way I see it, hardening her puts her at risk for falling back into bad patterns that have hurt her in the past and compromises her convictions, which I admire her for.

I'm not religious in RL and have mixed feelings about the Chantry itself in the game, but I don't see why she should "just abandon the Chantry" when her views on it are very reasonable to begin with. I guess I really don't see her as hiding from her problems behind the Chantry though so much as recovering from a traumatic experience with the help of her faith.

I actually like Leli's views since they are her own views and not the Chantry's (as she explains in an early convo). And I do agree that it's more of a recovery process for her.

But being an actual Chantry Sister isn't what I would envision for her in the long run. Retaining her faith while abandoning the "sisterhood" would be what I'd like for her (without all the other crap that hardening her represents).

Now that I mention it, I'm a bit confused. Does Leli actually remain a Chantry Sister if she's unhardened?

Finally, I also agree that the hardening dialogue is too manipulative. Actually, I blame that on game mechanics. A single conversation couldn't possibly change the entire way a person views the world.

As I said in the Alistair thread once, if the hardening process was handled through different events and conversations across the whole game, where certain actions or decisions lead to the character changing her (his) views on particular ideals, that would've worked much better.

[Bruddajakka]

Well the think about the hardening conversations is that your not going out of your way to manipulate them into being that way. Most of the time their the one who brings up the topic because their already thinking about it. Your just agreeing with them.



Leliana is still a good person hardened or not. Hardening her doesn't turn her into Marjoline. Same with hardening Alistair.

[wickedgoodreed]

Zjarcal wrote...
But being an actual Chantry Sister isn't what I would envision for her in the long run. Retaining her faith while abandoning the "sisterhood" would be what I'd like for her (without all the other crap that hardening her represents).

Now that I mention it, I'm a bit confused. Does Leli actually remain a Chantry Sister if she's unhardened?

You know, I'm not really sure. I know she'll aid the Chantry in seeking out the Urn, but it's unclear to me if she officially rejoins their ranks as an affirmed. I just tried fiddling around with an old save file to see if I could trigger the "what will you do after all this is over" conversation where she talks about it, but for some reason I couldn't get it to give me the version where she talks about going back to visit the Revered Mother. Usually I hear the romanced version of that convo, so I'm not really sure, but it was my impression that she was going back to say goodbye since she left so abruptly. I might be remembering wrong though...

[Zjarcal]

I had no idea she talked about going back to visit the Revered Mother. I guess that's a friendship dialogue instead. I'll look for it in the toolset.



Also, the letter we get from her in Awakening does suggest she rejoins the ranks, since she says the Grand Cleric wishes to speak with her.

[Bruddajakka]

You get that regardless of what her outlook is in Origins. Actually feels really out of character depending on how you interacted with her.



But the same thing can be said of Zevran.

[Special_Agent_Goodwrench]

What I got from the letter, was just Leliana attending a meeting with the Grand Cleric. Nothing about her rejoining the Chantry.

[Zjarcal]

Yeah, I guess the letter can be dismissed.

@wicked

Ok, I saw the dialogue you mentioned. It only shows up if Lothering hasn't been overrun yet (according to the Toolset). This is the full dialogue (after asking her what will she do):

Leliana: A brief stop at the cloister in Lothering is in order. I left quite abruptly and I should tie up loose ends if I can.
Warden: I hope the revered mother isn't worried for you.
Leliana: I gave the woman numerous headaches. She is probably glad I left and took my strange ideas with me.
Leliana: No, I shouldn't say that. She was always kind to me, even if she didn't understand me. Yes, I should return, at least to say goodbye.
Leliana: I will not stay in Lothering for long. My time in the cloister was a time of healing, but I am ready to face the world again.

I guess it's safe to say that she won't go back to being a Chantry Sister either way.

Modifié par Zjarcal, 08 novembre 2010 - 12:42 .

[wickedgoodreed]

Huh...I'm not sure how on earth I managed to get that conversation then since I don't recall even ever seeing that dialogue option that early on in the campaign...weird.



But, yes, that definitely makes me think that she's not hiding behind the Chantry.

[Special_Agent_Goodwrench]

Hmm, never seen that dialogue before for some reason. In my eyes, it pretty much confirms she's not going back to the Chantry. Then again, I never even thought of her doing that until it was brought up today.

[Zjarcal]

@wicked:



I was going to ask if you had raised her approval quickly to get it. Guess that's not the case.



It's weird for the condition of a dialogue that should in theory only be available until much later, to be that Lothering isn't overrun.



Also, the line...



"My time in the cloister was a time of healing, but I am ready to face the world again."



... does indeed make it seem like all she wanted was some time of soul searching and reflection, not necessarily hide behind the Chantry.