85 réponses à ce sujet

[MassThumpinWrex]

It's safe to say that Tali'Zorah is one of the more popular Mass Effect characters. Many of us were thrilled to hear she could be romanced in Mass Effect 2, but were simultaneously disappointed when we learned that our female Shepards would not have the opportunity to pursue this romance. We grumbled, and created male characters just so we could be with Tali. For me, it was disappointing having to play through as a character with whom I had less of a connection.

This has been brought up before (here), but the issue hasn't really been resolved to my satisfaction. We acknowledge that indeed, adding a romance option for female Shepards would require additional content to be added to the game. Fortunately, downloadable content has allowed such changes and expansions to occur. This appears to be the best solution.

The retroactive changing/tweaking of part of a game's plot is not without precedent. Recently, Bethesda Softworks proved the success of such a formula when they released the Broken Steel DLC, which altered the game's ending in response to player feedback. I believe that Bioware could definitely follow a similar route, and enable players with female characters to earn the Paramour achievement with one of their favorite characters. I personally would shell down a decent amount of Biopoints on this. And if such an addition seems to small to warrant its own release, it could also be part of the hypothetical "Romance Pack" that's been mentioned. I know a lot of other gamers out there have had similar complaints, and feel the same way as I do about this tragic omission, but I believe that this could easily be remedied, to everyone's satisfaction.

So, post here if you support the addition of a Tali'Zorah+FemShep romance to the game.

I've taken the liberty of making a userbar for those of you that wish to support this in your signatures:


 
http://img267.images...44/banner6s.png

Post to voice your support!

Modifié par MassThumpinWrex, 04 juin 2010 - 06:57 .

[Collider]

Mass, ALL romances have same sex lines recorded by Shepard. It's not just Tali. F!Shepard has lines recorded for the Jack, Miranda, and Ashley romances. M!Shepard has lines recorded for the Kaidan, Garrus, and Thane romances.

While I support LGBT options in the future, I do not support DLC of any kind that changes the sexual orientation of any squad mate that already has a romance. I want character consistency. I do not want to see Liara becoming straight, and I do not want to see Jacob becoming gay or bisexual.
--
I DO NOT support this thread's opinion.

Modifié par Collider, 04 juin 2010 - 07:04 .

[MassThumpinWrex]

How do you know it's a change in orientation?

[Collider]

MassThumpinWrex wrote...
How do you know it's a change in orientation?

It's quite simple. The romances are only for the opposite sex. There is NO point to making characters bisexual if their romances are not for both sexes. It will be changing their practical orientation.

I do not agree with changing orientations. Sexual orientation is not a light switch. It is insulting to suggest it is. The character's orientations are part of their character and should not be changed.

If you want M/M and F/F romances in ME2, the very easy solution is to mod the game. Since lines have been recorded for at least nearly every romance, you will hear Shepard say lines for the Garrus M/M, Miranda F/F, Jack F/F, Thane M/M, etc. Just mod the game.

Modifié par Collider, 04 juin 2010 - 07:01 .

[MassThumpinWrex]

I would prefer that a framework be set to allow the official inclusion of such romances into Mass Effect 3, rather than simply mod in some non-canonical fluff.

[Lord Coake]

I'd love to see bisexual and homosexual relationships in Mass Effect, if only just so I can kick back and grin at all the screeching and screaming from the Faux News crowd and the wailing and gnashing of teeth from bible beaters while they scream "THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!!11111oneoneone"

[MassThumpinWrex]

Well, if things are as Collider says, and the audio is all ready recorded, I don't see any reason why Bioware doesn't release a DLC pack that allows more romance options. It would really go a long way to increasing the enjoyment of the game for many.

[Collider]

MassThumpinWrex wrote...
I would prefer that a framework be set to allow the official inclusion of such romances into Mass Effect 3, rather than simply mod in some non-canonical fluff.

At least you admit that same sex romances with these characters are not canonical.

That is essentially my issue with your proposal. It goes against canon and destroys character integrity. If they begin to feel free to change their character's orientations like this, who knows who far they would go.

I don't want to see Liara or Kelly be changed to heterosexual simply because some people wanted their orientations changed. I don't want to play one playthrough and go through a conversation with Jacob, and then go through another playthrough and have the exact same conversation but Jacob magically decides he's bisexual and flirts with M!Shepard this time. This is not because I'm homophobic. If Jacob had been bisexual the entire time I would not care if he flirts with M!Shepard. However, changing his orientation when the game is released is a big no no.

Same would go for say Liara. If she had been heterosexual/lesbian in the first place I wouldn't care. But she isn't heterosexual or lesbian, I don't want to see her orientation being changed to heterosexual or lesbian, I want her to remain bisexual.

Don't change orientations, please.

Modifié par Collider, 04 juin 2010 - 07:21 .

[Mozer121]

I can't see Tali being bi-sexual. Sorry, I just think that would contradict her character.

[Wittand25]

Collider wrote...

MassThumpinWrex wrote...
I would prefer that a framework be set to allow the official inclusion of such romances into Mass Effect 3, rather than simply mod in some non-canonical fluff.

At least you admit that same sex romances with these characters are not canonical.

That is essentially my issue with your proposal. It goes against canon and destroys character integrity. If they begin to feel free to change their character's orientations like this, who knows who far they would go.

I don't want to see Liara or Kelly be changed to heterosexual simply because some people wanted their orientations changed. I don't want to play one playthrough and go through a conversation with Jacob, and then go through another playthrough and have the exact same conversation but Jacob magically decides he's bisexual and flirts with M!Shepard this time. This is not because I'm homophobic. If Jacob had been bisexual the entire time I would not care if he flirts with M!Shepard. However, changing his orientation when the game is released is a big no no.

Same would go for say Liara. If she had been heterosexual/lesbian I wouldn't care. But she isn't heterosexual, I don't want to see her orientation being changed to heterosexual or lesbian, I want her to remain bisexual. Don't change orientations, please.

Bioware has done that in the past, Juhani was bisexual and turned lesbian through a patch. And the case that the same diaslog leads to romance or friendship is already here in ME2, both Shepards have exactly the same dialog with the LIs right until the romance trigger happens. Ofcourse if Bioware really makes one of the female Li bisexual I really hope they to the same to one of the males too.

[vvDRUCILLAvv]

Lord Coake wrote...

I'd love to see bisexual and homosexual relationships in Mass Effect, if only just so I can kick back and grin at all the screeching and screaming from the Faux News crowd and the wailing and gnashing of teeth from bible beaters while they scream "THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!!11111oneoneone"

Bisexuality is perverse!!!!!

[MassThumpinWrex]

I don't think it would harm the character's identities. Just the simple exclusion of the same sex romances doesn't mean that the orientations of the characters are set in stone. The fact that they were even recorded indicates that they were considered possible in regards to the characters personalities. I really don't think this would be much more than a cosmetic change, and since most of the experience is going to be dictated by the player, the choice to go down that path, as well as its believability, is ultimately going to lay in their eyes.



Also, to be honest, I think that Tali would be believable as a same-sex romance option. Nothing in the games has cemented her as a heterosexual to me.

[Collider]

Wittand, they changed Juhani to lesbian because it was a glitch that she was available to males. And even then I disagreed with what they did.

That is not comparable at all to what we are discussing. Unless you believe that Bioware intended for ALL 9 romances to be bisexual but somehow due to a tricky glitch they were unable to. If you believe that, you are crazy.

Also Wittand, you need to consider what changing orientations could mean. They could have a gay character in ME3 but because people have been suggesting him to be straight instead, they change his orientation to straight with a mandatory patch. How would you feel about that? That would suck.

Modifié par Collider, 04 juin 2010 - 07:30 .

[Collider]

MassThumpinWrex wrote...

I don't think it would harm the character's identities. Just the simple exclusion of the same sex romances doesn't mean that the orientations of the characters are set in stone. The fact that they were even recorded indicates that they were considered possible in regards to the characters personalities.

They most likely recorded the lines for convenience's sake. It's convenient to record a large amount of lines in one take for Meer and Hale, instead of calling them back constantly just to read a few lines. I believe the lines were recorded just in case they decided x character was bisexual. In the end, it appears that they decided that none of the characters in ME2 with the exception of Samara was bisexual.

And if you think it wouldn't harm the character's identities, you are wrong. Take Liara for example. Her race is largely open to both genders. Changing her to be heterosexual would be destroying part of her character.

[MassThumpinWrex]

I think there's a big difference between deliberately turning a homosexual/bisexual character into a heterosexual one (thus taking away an option from the player), versus granting players additional options by simply diversifying (not rewriting, mind you) the sexuality of characters.

Modifié par MassThumpinWrex, 04 juin 2010 - 07:35 .

[Collider]

MassThumpinWrex wrote...
I think there's a big difference between deliberately turning a homosexual character into a heterosexual one (thus taking away an option from the player), and granting characters additional options by simply diversifying (not rewriting, mind you) the sexuality of characters.

How is that not rewriting? It is rewriting. Changing characters to be bisexual can very well be taking options away. It can be taking away the option to remain 100% platonic with a squad mate. For example, Kaidan. He does not flirt with M!Shepard. The relationship between him and the male PC is completely platonic. A lot of people say that there isn't enough platonic friendship in the game. Having him flirt with M!Shepard would not only be destroying his established heterosexuality, it would also be denying the player the previous option to have a relationship that is completely platonic.

As I said, there is also the issue of slippery slope. If they ever feel secure in changing orientations, we could have some very bad scenarios where gay characters are changed to being straight. Orientations ARE part of characters. They should not be changed. Instead, create new characters who are gay or bisexual. Do not change the ones who already have romances. If you really must experience an F/F or M/M romance with a character who is straight, just mod the game. You'll be able to get M/M Kaidan, F/F Miranda, etc. And yes, there are recorded homosexual lines for both.

Modifié par Collider, 04 juin 2010 - 07:36 .

[Wittand25]

I know that Juhani beeing open for both was supposed to be a mistake that got corrected.



Collider

I dont think bioware planned for all LI to be bisexual, but kept their options open as long as possible and that is the reason why the VO exist ( but you need to keep in mind that a FShep/Ashley cutscene exists which shows that this romance atleast was cut pretty late).



And I agree with you that changing the sexual orientation of an NPC would be a bad thing, but exept the romance trigger the NPCs of ME2 dont have an orientation. All of them treat male and female Shepard exactly the same way and only at the end of their dialog tree take a look at Shepard´s groin and start a romance or not. I oppose for example changing Alistair or Morrigan to bisexual in DA because they do have a sexual orientation and treat male and female wardens diffrent even long before the topic of romance comes up.

But allowing f/f and m/m romance in ME2 would only need the removal of the gender check (and maybe some additional VO recording) and that makes it for me no more a retcon than the improved plannedscanning for the console was.

[Collider]

Wittand, you are wrong. ALL of the love interests in ME2 treat Shepard differently depending on his gender, even before the romance. They do have an orientation.

From the top of my head:

Tali: Is noted by Kelly to act in a way to Male Shepard that suggests she wants him. If Shepard is female, Kelly does not say that Tali acts this way.
Miranda: She does not give Shepard a playful touch if Shepard is female.
Garrus: Some of his lines are changed depending on whether Shepard is male or female. For instance, If Shepard is male, Garrus jokes around with him, if Shepard is female, he mentions something about women finding scars attractive.
Jack: Does not assume that Female Shepard wants sex with her.

Modifié par Collider, 04 juin 2010 - 07:46 .

[MassThumpinWrex]

The only differences I noticed were pronouns.

[Collider]

MassThumpinWrex wrote...

The only differences I noticed were pronouns.

Reread my post. There are differences between male and female Shepard for squad mates even before their romance. Tali, who you want to be bisexual, Kelly does not state she has body language suggestive of desire for Female Shepard,instead Kelly only states she has that body language for male Shepard.

Modifié par Collider, 04 juin 2010 - 07:48 .

[Lemonwizard]

I support giving more same sex romance options. I do not, however, support character derailment (and that's what changing the orientation of a previously established character is).




Also, I'm really getting tired of how games are happy to toss out lesbians willy nilly but how much drastically rarer it is to see two homosexual men. Showing female homosexual relationships but not male ones is a sound business tactic in an industry with a primarily male audience, but that doesn't change how incredibly sexist it is, and I don't at all approve of changing the story just for the sake of fanservice.


If ME gets another same sex relationship, we need a M/M one before we get any more F/F (which we already have one of that's full fledged plus the Samara and Morinth things, not even bothering to mention Kelly). We have plenty of lesbians already.

[MassThumpinWrex]

Those could easily be part of the missing audio files, and were simply removed. Any discrepancies could easily be patched over as well. Plus, those differences you noted still don't seem to preclude same-sex romance with the characters

[Collider]

I agree with Lemon. Do NOT change orientations of established characters who already have romances. Instead, make new characters who happen to be gay or bisexual. Then everyone is happy.

[Collider]

I agree with Lemon. Do NOT change orientations of established characters who already have romances. Instead, make new characters who happen to be gay or bisexual. Then everyone is happy.