85 réponses à ce sujet

[Christmas Ape]

I get the objection, but I just can't set the "integrity" of fictional characters (based on a line or two of dialogue that doesn't always always come from the character, or a brief animation, and whose omission could be easily explained away by "wanted to be sure" if we assume it's still not a 50/50 split in all cultures in 2185) above expanding the play experience to accommodate and include a wider range of players.



Priorities, I suppose.



I'm in favor, but I don't believe in sig images.

[Wittand25]

Collider wrote...

Reread my post. There are differences between male and female Shepard for squad mates even before their romance. Tali, who you want to be bisexual, Kelly does not state she has body language suggestive of desire for Female Shepard,instead Kelly only states she has that body language for male Shepard.

But Talis behavior or dialog does not change with Shepards sex on line that Kelly says to Shepard does.
By the way Garrus has a line about women finding scars atractive right in his first talk onboard the normandy ( a line that ruled him out for beeing a m/m-LI right at the start for me) and Jack asking Separd about sex before the romance leads to well sex so ofcouse that is conected to the same trigger.
Jacob and Thane dont have any gender specific lines pre romance that I can recall.

[Collider]

MassThumpinWrex wrote...
Those could easily be part of the missing audio files, and were simply removed.

That doesn't make any sense. All of the romances have same sex lines recorded from Shepard. That doesn't mean all of them were going to be bisexual.

Any discrepancies could easily be patched over as well.

That is exactly what I am arguing against. I don't want a patch that changes the orientation of the characters. I don't want to see Liara becoming straight.

Plus, those differences you noted still don't seem to preclude same-sex romance with the characters

It proves that Shepard is treated differently depending on gender.

Garrus flirts with female Shepard before his romance, Kelly only says that Tali likes Male Shepard before her romance, Miranda caresses Male Shepard but not female Shepard before her romance, and Jack does not assume and welcome Female Shepard for sex before her romance. That seems to me that they obviously have a preference for the opposite sex.

[Collider]

Wittand25 wrote...

Collider wrote...

Reread my post. There are differences between male and female Shepard for squad mates even before their romance. Tali, who you want to be bisexual, Kelly does not state she has body language suggestive of desire for Female Shepard,instead Kelly only states she has that body language for male Shepard.

But Talis behavior or dialog does not change with Shepards sex on line that Kelly says to Shepard does.

That does not matter. It's an indication IN GAME that Tali acts differently and romantically for Male Shepard but not for Female Shepard. If that's not an indication that Tali likes the opposite sex but not the same to you, IDK what to say aside that you're desperate.

By the way Garrus has a line about women finding scars atractive right in his first talk onboard the normandy ( a line that ruled him out for beeing a m/m-LI right at the start for me)

I'm glad you can accept some of what I say.

Jacob and Thane dont have any gender specific lines pre romance that I can recall.

I'm sure they do. I just haven't played them - I wouldn't doubt I'd find it.

[Wittand25]

Collider wrote...

I agree with Lemon. Do NOT change orientations of established characters who already have romances. Instead, make new characters who happen to be gay or bisexual. Then everyone is happy.

That only works for ME3. For ME2 a DLC that allows s/s romancews for both sexes is (nearly) the only possible way.

[Collider]

Wittand25 wrote...

Collider wrote...

I agree with Lemon. Do NOT change orientations of established characters who already have romances. Instead, make new characters who happen to be gay or bisexual. Then everyone is happy.

That only works for ME3. For ME2 a DLC that allows s/s romancews for both sexes is (nearly) the only possible way.

Uh, I'm saying that I don't want ME2 to have DLC that changes orientations of the squad mates who already have romances. And I'm saying that I'm fine with ME3 having NEW characters who are gay or bisexual.

[Christmas Ape]

Collider said...

I don't want a patch that changes the orientation of the characters. I don't want to see Liara becoming straight.

Why do you keep coming back to this non sequitor? No-one is talking about a "limit options established in the first game" patch, they're talking about an "add options the developers made room for in the second game" patch. Please, stay on target here.

[Collider]

Christmas Ape wrote...

Collider said...
I don't want a patch that changes the orientation of the characters. I don't want to see Liara becoming straight.

Why do you keep coming back to this non sequitor? No-one is talking about a "limit options established in the first game" patch, they're talking about an "add options the developers made room for in the second game" patch. Please, stay on target here.

We are talking about changing orientations. And that's exactly what changing Liara to be heterosexual would be. It's not a non sequitur - if you need a dictionary definition I'll be happy to provide.

I am free to say what I wish, just as you are. Thankfully, what I am saying is completely related to the topic.

[MassThumpinWrex]

While I agree with Lemonwizard that there need to be more m/m relationships in games, and that Mass Effect should definitely have some, I don't think that adding new f/f romance options would be "fanservice" if it was done tastefully. Take the Tali love scene for example. It isn't gratuitous at all.



Also, I don't agree that this would necessarily be "changing" their orientations. I still think that the game left enough ambiguity in regards to the characters' preferences that the romance additions would fit in perfectly.

[Christmas Ape]

Well, I don't feel like taking the time to teach the difference between "more options" and "less options", so you believe what you will.

[Collider]

I disagree Mass. The fact that they act differently for male and female Shepard even before the romance should be enough indication that they prefer the opposite sex. I hate to repeat myself, but for Tali she does not exhibit body language for Female Shepard as she does for male Shepard. For Garrus he flirts with Female Shepard but not Male.



Considering Shepard can act EXACTLY the same as Male Shepard besides in the romances, this is an indication that these characters are looking at Shepard's gender and acting romantically if Shepard is opposite sex, but not if Shepard is same sex.

[Wittand25]

Collider wrote...
That does not matter. It's an indication IN GAME that Tali acts differently and romantically for Male Shepard but not for Female Shepard. If that's not an indication that Tali likes the opposite sex but not the same to you, IDK what to say aside that you're desperate.

Kelly says alot of things including compairing Ceberus to a dog shelter, so I take whatever she says with a grain of salt .
I dont care that much for Tali (or f/f at all) and think that Jack would be a far better canditate for f/f by the way, but still I think that Tali would work as option with as little as changing her romance trigger.

[MassThumpinWrex]

Exactly. That's why I really want this option to be added to the game. DLC is good for Bioware (especially when most of the content is already done), and more options are good for players.

[Collider]

Wittand25 wrote...

Collider wrote...
That does not matter. It's an indication IN GAME that Tali acts differently and romantically for Male Shepard but not for Female Shepard. If that's not an indication that Tali likes the opposite sex but not the same to you, IDK what to say aside that you're desperate.

Kelly says alot of things including compairing Ceberus to a dog shelter, so I take whatever she says with a grain of salt.

Please. Now you're just grasping at straws.

Wittand, Bioware can make ANY squad mate bisexual, heterosexual, or homosexual. It's within their power to do so. I am arguing against them doing so because it is changing their characters. Sexual orientation is part of their character . Just as if there was a gay male character in ME3. Being gay would be part of his character. If they changed him to be heterosexual in a patch, how would you feel? Wouldn't that be changing his character?

Modifié par Collider, 04 juin 2010 - 08:13 .

[kraidy1117]

Yes lets make Tali bi, a character that has never showed that type of affction to the female character before!!! No character derailment.

[Lemonwizard]

MassThumpinWrex wrote...

While I agree with Lemonwizard that there need to be more m/m relationships in games, and that Mass Effect should definitely have some, I don't think that adding new f/f romance options would be "fanservice" if it was done tastefully. Take the Tali love scene for example. It isn't gratuitous at all.

Also, I don't agree that this would necessarily be "changing" their orientations. I still think that the game left enough ambiguity in regards to the characters' preferences that the romance additions would fit in perfectly.

We already have five possible F/F options in the game that can be acknowledged to varying degrees, from Shiala's vague flirtation to Liara's full romance. Adding another one is just continuing the trend, which I do not support no matter how tastefully it was done. I don't think you're trying to be sexist, but that doesn't change that it's a real issue and subconsciously reinforcing these societal expectations isn't something I approve of.


Balance it out first and foremost. There's not even an allusion to a M/M relationship or anything that remotely resembles flriting. Make it more unbiased, then we can talk about adding more F/F.

[Wittand25]

Collider wrote...

Wittand25 wrote...

Collider wrote...
That does not matter. It's an indication IN GAME that Tali acts differently and romantically for Male Shepard but not for Female Shepard. If that's not an indication that Tali likes the opposite sex but not the same to you, IDK what to say aside that you're desperate.

Kelly says alot of things including compairing Ceberus to a dog shelter, so I take whatever she says with a grain of salt.

Please. Now you're just grasping at straws.

Wittand, Bioware can make ANY squad mate bisexual, heterosexual, or homosexual. It's within their power to do so. I am arguing against them doing so because it is changing their characters. Sexual orientation is part of their character . Just as if there was a gay male character in ME3. Being gay would be part of his character. If they changed him to be heterosexual in a patch, how would you feel? Wouldn't that be changing his character?

Actually I am making fun and the Kelly thing was not meant to be taken seriously, even it is in the game.
And as many posters here and in other discussions on this topic have pointed out: Most of us are against removing options but would welcome adding options. You always bring examples of removing or replacing options for the player, we are talking of adding some and turning a gay LI ( even i have never encountered one in a mainstream game) bisexual, not straight, would be ok to me .

Modifié par Wittand25, 04 juin 2010 - 08:22 .

[MassThumpinWrex]

Sexual orientation is part of their character . Just as if there was a gay male character in ME3. Being gay would be part of his character. If they changed him to be heterosexual in a patch, how would you feel? Wouldn't that be changing his character?

Why do you keep saying this? There IS a difference between reversing the sexuality of an established homosexual character, and revealing someone as bisexual.

[Collider]

Agreed with Lemonwizard. M/M romances are the priority. I know that LGBT people don't have many options in games either way, but I'd rather see a NEW (as in new character) M/M option rather than another F/F for the sake of balance.

[kraidy1117]

Ok if ME2 just came out and there was a Tali and female Shepard romance, no one would mind it, but if a patch came out and made Tali bi that would make alot of fans angry because you are changing the character, it does not matter if they planed to have her bi, she is not bi in lore now.

[MassThumpinWrex]

Wittand25 wrote...

Actually I am making fun and the Kelly thing was not meant to be taken seriously, even it is in the game.
And as many posters here and in other discussions on this topic have pointed out: Most of us are against removing options but would welcome adding options. You always bring examples of removing or replacing options for the player, we are talking of adding some.

Seriously, nobody would be forcing you to choose these new options, and they could totally be avoided if you so inclined.

[Lemonwizard]

MassThumpinWrex wrote...

Sexual orientation is part of their character . Just as if there was a gay male character in ME3. Being gay would be part of his character. If they changed him to be heterosexual in a patch, how would you feel? Wouldn't that be changing his character?

Why do you keep saying this? There IS a difference between reversing the sexuality of an established homosexual character, and revealing someone as bisexual.

You say revealing as if it were hidden or unestablished. As it stands, a decision has been made that a character is not bisexual and does not respond to advances from the same sex. How is changing that any less of a reversal of sexuality?

[MassThumpinWrex]

kraidy1117 wrote...

Ok if ME2 just came out and there was a Tali and female Shepard romance, no one would mind it, but if a patch came out and made Tali bi that would make alot of fans angry because you are changing the character, it does not matter if they planed to have her bi, she is not bi in lore now.

The only indication that she's not bi is simply the lack of an option for FemShep to persue that romance. She could still be into women too, ya know.

[Collider]

Wittand25 wrote...

Collider wrote...

Wittand25 wrote...

Collider wrote...
That does not matter. It's an indication IN GAME that Tali acts differently and romantically for Male Shepard but not for Female Shepard. If that's not an indication that Tali likes the opposite sex but not the same to you, IDK what to say aside that you're desperate.

Kelly says alot of things including compairing Ceberus to a dog shelter, so I take whatever she says with a grain of salt.

Please. Now you're just grasping at straws.

Wittand, Bioware can make ANY squad mate bisexual, heterosexual, or homosexual. It's within their power to do so. I am arguing against them doing so because it is changing their characters. Sexual orientation is part of their character . Just as if there was a gay male character in ME3. Being gay would be part of his character. If they changed him to be heterosexual in a patch, how would you feel? Wouldn't that be changing his character?

Actually I am making fun and the Kelly thing was not meant to be taken seriously, even it is in the game.
And as many posters here and in other discussions on this topic have pointed out: Most of us are against removing options but would welcome adding options. You always bring examples of removing or replacing options for the player, we are talking of adding some.

First, I would like you to answer my question. How would you feel about them changing the gay character to be bisexual?

Making these characters bisexually is removing the option to interact with them in a completely platonic manner. It IS removing an option.

If Kaidan, for instance, starts flirting with Male Shepard, I lost the options to be completely platonic buddies with him. A lot of people LOVE platonic friendship paths where they don't have to reject someone or worry that the game thinks they're flirting with the character (see Dragon Age), and I would lament the loss of being able to interact with Garrus or some other person without them changing and hitting on my character when in the last playthrough before the patch they hit on me. And yes, it's a different experience. If Garrus was hitting on me I wouldn't have the same "bromance" experience. I'd be friends with a guy who had feelings for me and I rejected him, and that does take the relationship to a different light.

[MassThumpinWrex]

Lemonwizard wrote...

You say revealing as if it were hidden or unestablished. As it stands, a decision has been made that a character is not bisexual and does not respond to advances from the same sex. How is changing that any less of a reversal of sexuality?

Because the issue isn't that they don't respond to your advances, but that you cannot make those advances in the first place because the game has limited you from doing so.

Modifié par MassThumpinWrex, 04 juin 2010 - 08:26 .