85 réponses à ce sujet

[kraidy1117]

MassThumpinWrex wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...

Ok if ME2 just came out and there was a Tali and female Shepard romance, no one would mind it, but if a patch came out and made Tali bi that would make alot of fans angry because you are changing the character, it does not matter if they planed to have her bi, she is not bi in lore now.

The only indication that she's not bi is simply the lack of an option for FemShep to persue that romance. She could still be into women too, ya know.

How do you know? There is no indication for feelings to a female Shepard and Shepard is the only person Tali trust. She is not bi in lore, and you can not break lore just because you want a female on female action.

[Collider]

MassThumpinWrex wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...

Ok if ME2 just came out and there was a Tali and female Shepard romance, no one would mind it, but if a patch came out and made Tali bi that would make alot of fans angry because you are changing the character, it does not matter if they planed to have her bi, she is not bi in lore now.

The only indication that she's not bi is simply the lack of an option for FemShep to persue that romance. She could still be into women too, ya know.

BS. Another indication that she's not BI is Kelly doesn't say Tali is interested in female Shepard. Duh.

If Male Shepard and Female Shepard act exactly the same, but Tali was only showing body language desirous of Male Shepard, how is that not an indication that she is not bisexual?

[Collider]

Wittand25 wrote...

Collider wrote...

Wittand25 wrote...

Collider wrote...
That
does not matter. It's an indication IN GAME that Tali acts differently
and romantically for Male Shepard but not for Female Shepard. If that's
not an indication that Tali likes the opposite sex but not the same to
you, IDK what to say aside that you're desperate.

Kelly
says alot of things including compairing Ceberus to a dog shelter, so I
take whatever she says with a grain of salt.

Please. Now you're just grasping at straws.

Wittand,
Bioware can make ANY squad mate bisexual, heterosexual, or homosexual.
It's within their power to do so. I am arguing against them doing so
because it is changing their characters. Sexual orientation is part of
their character . Just as if there was a gay male character in ME3.
Being gay would be part of his character. If they changed him to be
heterosexual in a patch, how would you feel? Wouldn't that be changing
his character?

Actually I am making fun and the Kelly thing was not meant to be taken seriously, even it is in the game.
And as many posters here and in other discussions on this topic have pointed out: Most of us are against removing options but would welcome adding options. You always bring examples of removing or replacing options for the player, we are talking of adding some.

First, I would like you to answer my question. How would you feel about them changing the gay character to be bisexual?

Making
these characters bisexually is removing the option to interact with
them in a completely platonic manner. It IS removing an option.

If
Kaidan, for instance, starts flirting with Male Shepard, I lost the
options to be completely platonic buddies with him. A lot of people
LOVE platonic friendship paths where they don't have to reject someone
or worry that the game thinks they're flirting with the character (see
Dragon Age), and I would lament the loss of being able to interact with
Garrus or some other person without them changing and hitting on my
character when in the last playthrough before the patch they hit on me.

And yes, it's a different experience. If Garrus was hitting on me I
wouldn't have the same "bromance" experience. I'd be friends with a guy
who had feelings for me and I rejected him, and that does take the
relationship to a different light.

Modifié par Collider, 04 juin 2010 - 08:26 .

[kraidy1117]

Collider wrote...

MassThumpinWrex wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...

Ok if ME2 just came out and there was a Tali and female Shepard romance, no one would mind it, but if a patch came out and made Tali bi that would make alot of fans angry because you are changing the character, it does not matter if they planed to have her bi, she is not bi in lore now.

The only indication that she's not bi is simply the lack of an option for FemShep to persue that romance. She could still be into women too, ya know.

BS. Another indication that she's not BI is Kelly doesn't say Tali is interested in female Shepard. Duh.

If Male Shepard and Female Shepard act exactly the same, but Tali was only showing body language desirous of Male Shepard, how is that not an indication that she is not bisexual?

And this proves Tali is not bi in lore. Lore can not be broken because you want girl on girl action.

[Collider]

kraidy1117 wrote...

Collider wrote...

MassThumpinWrex wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...

Ok if ME2 just came out and there was a Tali and female Shepard romance, no one would mind it, but if a patch came out and made Tali bi that would make alot of fans angry because you are changing the character, it does not matter if they planed to have her bi, she is not bi in lore now.

The only indication that she's not bi is simply the lack of an option for FemShep to persue that romance. She could still be into women too, ya know.

BS. Another indication that she's not BI is Kelly doesn't say Tali is interested in female Shepard. Duh.

If Male Shepard and Female Shepard act exactly the same, but Tali was only showing body language desirous of Male Shepard, how is that not an indication that she is not bisexual?

And this proves Tali is not bi in lore. Lore can not be broken because you want girl on girl action.

Thank you, and I agree with you Kraidy.

[FenixFire]

One look at the title and this belongs in the same sex romance topic. Please keep idea's & discussions like that there. Else the forum will get swamped by independant threads of all sorts again. For those who want same sex romances & all, mod the game for it. It's not mainstream so there is no point to flesh this idea out extensively as developers only do what the grand public wants.

[Lemonwizard]

Frankly, I mostly just get pissed off at the idea that everybody in the world needs to be bisexual when in real life only like 2% of the population actually is. This isn't a decision people just make lightly, it's got life changing ramifications. If it's not part of a character already you don't just tack it on. And before you start saying that the dialogue's already recorded, I will point out to you that it's the same dialogue as the heterosexual romance copy and pasted word for word....which is the very definition of tacked on in my mind.

[FenixFire]

Lemonwizard wrote...

Frankly, I mostly just get pissed off at the idea that everybody in the world needs to be bisexual when in real life only like 2% of the population actually is. This isn't a decision people just make lightly, it's got life changing ramifications. If it's not part of a character already you don't just tack it on. And before you start saying that the dialogue's already recorded, I will point out to you that it's the same dialogue as the heterosexual romance copy and pasted word for word....which is the very definition of tacked on in my mind.

Quoted for lemon-flavoured truth.

[MassThumpinWrex]

kraidy1117 wrote...


And this proves Tali is not bi in lore. Lore can not be broken because you want girl on girl action.

Lore isn't set in stone though. Things can be ammended by the developer. Look at the afformentioned example of Broken Steel for Fallout 3. The lore can be changed as desired, especially if it improves the gameplay experience.

[Wittand25]

Collider wrote...
First, I would like you to answer my question. How would you feel about them changing the gay character to be bisexual?

Making these characters bisexually is removing the option to interact with them in a completely platonic manner. It IS removing an option.

If Kaidan, for instance, starts flirting with Male Shepard, I lost the options to be completely platonic buddies with him. A lot of people LOVE platonic friendship paths where they don't have to reject someone or worry that the game thinks they're flirting with the character (see Dragon Age), and I would lament the loss of being able to interact with Garrus or some other person without them changing and hitting on my character when in the last playthrough before the patch they hit on me. And yes, it's a different experience. If Garrus was hitting on me I wouldn't have the same "bromance" experience. I'd be friends with a guy who had feelings for me and I rejected him, and that does take the relationship to a different light.

I answered in edit but again : Turning a character bi and adding options fine, changing a characters oriention 180 degress and removing the old options not fine.
And regarding the platonic friendships, though luck for you ME2 does offer that options for any of the six LI anyway. And you already have to worry about accidenal flirting whenever you talk to anyone off the opposite sex, so saying having to worry about not flirting with one more character is to much trouble does sound silly. And I was in the same boat with Tali, my MShep  felt protective and more like a big brother about her and suddenly she offers sex to him, so why would e.g. Garrus be any worse ?

[Collider]

Wittand, you don't get it. First of all, Tali doesn't just "offer" sex to him, rofl. Secondly, Tali was already like that in the game.



Garrus wasn't. He never flirted with Male Shepard. If he starts flirting with Male Shepard, then I no longer have the character experience I once had before the patch that made Garrus bisexual. I lost the option to have a completely platonic, bromantic relationship with him. So making ME1 and ME2 characters bisexual would be as much adding an option as it would be removing an option.

[MassThumpinWrex]

Lemonwizard wrote...

Frankly, I mostly just get pissed off at the idea that everybody in the world needs to be bisexual when in real life only like 2% of the population actually is. This isn't a decision people just make lightly, it's got life changing ramifications. If it's not part of a character already you don't just tack it on. And before you start saying that the dialogue's already recorded, I will point out to you that it's the same dialogue as the heterosexual romance copy and pasted word for word....which is the very definition of tacked on in my mind.

I think the number is more like 80%, especially in the future

[Collider]

MassThumpinWrex wrote...

Lemonwizard wrote...

Frankly, I mostly just get pissed off at the idea that everybody in the world needs to be bisexual when in real life only like 2% of the population actually is. This isn't a decision people just make lightly, it's got life changing ramifications. If it's not part of a character already you don't just tack it on. And before you start saying that the dialogue's already recorded, I will point out to you that it's the same dialogue as the heterosexual romance copy and pasted word for word....which is the very definition of tacked on in my mind.

I think the number is more like 80%, especially in the future

BS. That makes no sense.

[MassThumpinWrex]

Collider wrote...

Wittand, you don't get it. First of all, Tali doesn't just "offer" sex to him, rofl. Secondly, Tali was already like that in the game.

Garrus wasn't. He never flirted with Male Shepard. If he starts flirting with Male Shepard, then I no longer have the character experience I once had before the patch that made Garrus bisexual. I lost the option to have a completely platonic, bromantic relationship with him. So making ME1 and ME2 characters bisexual would be as much adding an option as it would be removing an option.

You can still have a bromantic relationship. I didn't recall too much ill-will from Kaiden after I went for Liara instead of him. The romance would most likey be initiated by the player, allowing you the ability to avoid it all together.

[Lemonwizard]

MassThumpinWrex wrote...

Lemonwizard wrote...

Frankly, I mostly just get pissed off at the idea that everybody in the world needs to be bisexual when in real life only like 2% of the population actually is. This isn't a decision people just make lightly, it's got life changing ramifications. If it's not part of a character already you don't just tack it on. And before you start saying that the dialogue's already recorded, I will point out to you that it's the same dialogue as the heterosexual romance copy and pasted word for word....which is the very definition of tacked on in my mind.

I think the number is more like 80%, especially in the future

Uh.....what?


80%? As in, there are 4 times as many bisexual people as heterosexual and homosexual people combined?



Because I'm disinclined to believe such a figure.

[Collider]

I wouldn't be having the same character experience with Garrus. If one of my male friends started flirting with me, yes, my relationship with him would be different than if he didn't flirt with me. I'd no longer have the same platonic bromance experience because this guy is hitting on me and I have to turn him down. A lot of times, bi/gay guys/women admitting their feelings for someone who is straight can sour the relationship or make it awkward.

Modifié par Collider, 04 juin 2010 - 08:43 .

[MassThumpinWrex]

Lemonwizard wrote...

MassThumpinWrex wrote...

Lemonwizard wrote...

Frankly, I mostly just get pissed off at the idea that everybody in the world needs to be bisexual when in real life only like 2% of the population actually is. This isn't a decision people just make lightly, it's got life changing ramifications. If it's not part of a character already you don't just tack it on. And before you start saying that the dialogue's already recorded, I will point out to you that it's the same dialogue as the heterosexual romance copy and pasted word for word....which is the very definition of tacked on in my mind.

I think the number is more like 80%, especially in the future

Uh.....what?


80%? As in, there are 4 times as many bisexual people as heterosexual and homosexual people combined?



Because I'm disinclined to believe such a figure.

Everyone's somewhat bisexual to at least some degree, and Commander Shepard is
just the kind of person to be able to knock anybody off their feet.

[Dougdh]

80% chance you are delusional. I'd make a much more convincing and educated statement/arguement but this is the only comment I will make. Collider and Lemon speak the truth.

[Collider]

I get it now. Technology makes you gay.

Modifié par Collider, 04 juin 2010 - 08:45 .

[MassThumpinWrex]

Collider wrote...

I wouldn't be having the same character experience with Garrus. If one of my male friends started flirting with me, yes, my relationship with him would be different than if he didn't flirt with me. I'd no longer have the same platonic bromance experience because this guy is hitting on me and I have to turn him down. A lot of times, bi/gay guys/women admitting their feelings for someone who is straight can sour the relationship or make it awkward.

I just explained that the romance could be initiated by the player, wihout Garrus mentioning anything to them. There's a lot of ways Bioware could work around this.

[Wittand25]

Collider wrote...

Wittand, you don't get it. First of all, Tali doesn't just "offer" sex to him, rofl. Secondly, Tali was already like that in the game.

Garrus wasn't. He never flirted with Male Shepard. If he starts flirting with Male Shepard, then I no longer have the character experience I once had before the patch that made Garrus bisexual. I lost the option to have a completely platonic, bromantic relationship with him. So making ME1 and ME2 characters bisexual would be as much adding an option as it would be removing an option.

It would not remove any option because all the dialog is still there and the way it works in ME 2 you would not miss any dialog and the only thing you have to make sure is that the romance does not start, I dont remember know how direct his romance start but it is only one dialog added to your frienship.
They removed the option to have a big brother relationship with Tali between ME1 and 2. Tali is not new she was in ME1 and did never show even the slightest bit of attraction towards Shepard in that game.

[Collider]

Again, that ignores the fact that they would be changing the character's sexualities, which is wrong. Sexuality isn't a light switch that you could turn on or off or gay or straight. And you are ridiculous if you say that everyone has bisexual tendencies and in the future 80% of people will be bisexual.

[MassThumpinWrex]

The future bisexual percentage thing was more of a joke. At the same time, I still disagree on your point that the character's sexualities will have "changed". For all intents and purposes, it will have simply opened the character's up to more players.

Modifié par MassThumpinWrex, 04 juin 2010 - 08:52 .

[Collider]

Wittand25 wrote...

Collider wrote...

Wittand, you don't get it. First of all, Tali doesn't just "offer" sex to him, rofl. Secondly, Tali was already like that in the game.

Garrus wasn't. He never flirted with Male Shepard. If he starts flirting with Male Shepard, then I no longer have the character experience I once had before the patch that made Garrus bisexual. I lost the option to have a completely platonic, bromantic relationship with him. So making ME1 and ME2 characters bisexual would be as much adding an option as it would be removing an option.

It would not remove any option because all the dialog is still there and the way it works in ME 2 you would not miss any dialog and the only thing you have to make sure is that the romance does not start, I dont remember know how direct his romance start but it is only one dialog added to your frienship.

False. I would miss out on the bromance dialog because instead of Garrus saying "you're ugly" to Shepard, he says something like "some men find scars attractive." As I already stated, these squad mates treat Shepard differently depending on gender.

They removed the option to have a big brother relationship with Tali between ME1 and 2. Tali is not new she was in ME1 and did never show even the slightest bit of attraction towards Shepard in that game.

Wittand, ...we are, and the thread is, talking about DLC that changes orientations in the same game. In ME2, characters like Jacob and Tali only show romantic affection only to the opposite sex and only have romances for the opposite sex. Making Garrus bisexual and have him flirting would be removing the option of platonic friendship in ME2, the same game.

Modifié par Collider, 04 juin 2010 - 08:54 .

[Collider]

MassThumpinWrex wrote...

The future bisexual percentage thing was more of a joke. At the same time, I still disagree on your point that the character's sexualities will have "changed". For all intents and purposes, it will have simply opened the character's up to more players.

They would change their orientation because they didn't show interest in ME2 before, but they would be showing interest in ME2 with a patch. That is changing orientation.