103 réponses à ce sujet

[MrNose]

inversevideo wrote...

Tven0 wrote...

nikki191 wrote...

its just a fix for gameplay rather than lore.. when you find weapons with only thermal clips being used on a ship thats been crashed for a decade well its a blatent " I hope people wont notice we cant be bothered making things completely lore friendly and most players wont care enough for it to matter anyway"

Thank you Nikki! That is precisely the point im trying to make. Games are trying to present themselves in a mature way, and trying to be accepted into the mainstream. And yet, when continuity errors like this occur at the start of a game, even a very small error - and the immersion is ruined. Designers are lazy, and players don't care about the worlds they play in. They just accept whatever crap gets thrown at them by the designers and accept it instead of challenge it - challenging things is how you make better games.

I was going to say that the thermal clip issue does not represent 'story failure', and I still think it is not a game breaker.  But nikki191 does illustrate your point a bit better.  There should be no thermal clips or mechs on Aeia.
Mechs were created after the attack on the Citadel, according to the codex, as a response to the loss of life by so many C-SEC personnel defending the station against Saren and his Geth.  There should not have been any mechs on the Hugo Gernsback, as it crashed ten years before the attack on the Citadel.  And the weapons should have been lesser versions of those available to you in ME 1.; so no thermal clips.

So yes, someone did not adequately check this particular side quest, to make sure that it made sense, internally, to the story

So I agree with you.

A valid and constructive criticism, which I hope devs take in the best way.

Hopefully, for ME3, someone will check each story arc to ensure that it is internally consistent.

Its not a game fail at all.  They just don't explain it.  Clearly TIM set up Jacob by manipulating the survivors and giving his father the mechs.  Thermal clips were seeded on the ground so that Jacob would be able to surive.  TIM thus encourages Jacob to kill his own father, hastening his descent to the darkside. 

Modifié par MrNose, 04 juin 2010 - 11:38 .

[Sajuro]

But does that mean that TIM went back in time and gave Jacob's father the mechs after the Hugo Gernsback crashed?

[smudboy]

Tven0 wrote...

I agree.

But how about Shepard even being resurrected, before he starts talking about his retconned gun workings?  Did anyone explain how he was brought back, and how the circumstances of his death somehow kept his brain intact?  If they mentioned something about brain-imprints/transplants/augments/replication, you could cast quite the magical lampshade over class changes, and any knowledge Shepard may have suddenly acquired.

[Bluko]

Maybe Shepard read about new/possible technologies before he died and having Thermal Clips was a proposed new weapon design he read about. So when he saw the gun he knew what to do.

Or maybe he looked at the gun and saw it was missing something/couldn't fire and figured it used some sort of Clip.

I mean how is Shepard able to put his armor on instantly when he gets up? WTF?!

Every game/movie/story has plot holes. Sure ME2 has some pretty glaring ones like Thermal Clips. Would it have been nice if the Devs bothered to add a few things into the game to make things more plausible. Yes. But it's just a game. Why did every Merc in ME1 say the exact same things? How can you wear all the armor suits you pick up in ME1, are they all made in Shepard's custom size? You see how easy it is to nitpick.

Everyone here loves to nitpick everything about ME2 to death. ME2 is an overall better game then ME1. Why do I say this? Because I've played them back to back. Sure some things were done better in ME1, but hey that's life ya know.

[Weiser_Cain]

Actually an armor up scene would have been an instant classic.

[Tven0]

Weiser_Cain wrote...

Actually an armor up scene would have been an instant classic.

Precisely. The point im making is that the first thing your character says is about thermal clips - the new and previously unused ammo system. So it punches a hole in the storyline, and it's also a pretty pathetic and lame first line.

The base you're in is clearly under attack, you're being shouted at by some woman you don't know to get up and get out of the room, and all you can think about is the new ammo system when you pick up a gun? It just seems a bit half hearted. If it had been a quick suit-up cinematic, questions about the thermal clip and then instead of some random barrels exploding by the door how about some mechs actually smash the door open and start firing because they have hunted you down. Would have been much better imo.

Think about Oblivion, you wake up in that prison cell and you get some orc guy saying how horrible you are and then the king arrives. It builds atmosphere.

This part at the start of ME2 just fails.

[borelocin]

There was an article about thermal clips in Fornax. I was reading it in the head when the Collectors hit Normandy 1. Hey I only buy it for the articles ! Anyway, I hacked Cerberus' procurement system (they subcontract out to an outfit called Coalesced) and put in an order for unlimited clips. Works a treat.

[JKoopman]

Noticed one more inconsistency with the thermal clips. When talking to Zaeed about his old rifle "Jessy", he tells a story about a mission 5 years back where he "carved his way through 100 batarian mooks." He then states that he didn't "remember ejecting a clip once..."



If this was 5 years ago, that was a full 3 years before thermal clip technology was even introduced (and the weapon itself was much older still).



It really seems like it was originally BioWare's intention to simply retcon thermal clips in, but then they decided to shoehorn it into the lore at the last minute without bothering to check for inconsistencies.

[Christmas Ape]

Just about everything in ME2 except the codex suggests thermal clips were always in use - there's even at least one point in ME1 where it's (accidentally?) implied. The Listening Post assignment with Marines stationed on pirate watch. Before the first wave their squad leader calls for the troops to "pool ammo and grenades".



I figure the options are fixate on it, post about it several times a day, and basically accuse Bioware of stealing my money, or note that it's seamless to the characters and just ignore it.



There do seem to be a lot of Abnettings* in ME2 though.





*For those who've no context, Dan Abnett writes a lot of the licensed Warhammer 40K fiction. He's probably the most competent writer Black Library has available to it, but long-time fans of the setting note his work is rife with inconsistencies compared to established lore. It's essentially "things that are wrong, but good enough you don't really care".

[ChanceRandom]

JKoopman wrote...

Noticed one more inconsistency with the thermal clips. When talking to Zaeed about his old rifle "Jessy", he tells a story about a mission 5 years back where he "carved his way through 100 batarian mooks." He then states that he didn't "remember ejecting a clip once..."

If this was 5 years ago, that was a full 3 years before thermal clip technology was even introduced (and the weapon itself was much older still).

It really seems like it was originally BioWare's intention to simply retcon thermal clips in, but then they decided to shoehorn it into the lore at the last minute without bothering to check for inconsistencies.

Dont want to make a big deal of this but it could also be a jab at ME1, like when you talk to Conrad Verner and he jokes about helping people and rooting around in boxes.

[KalosCast]

ChanceRandom wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

Noticed one more inconsistency with the thermal clips. When talking to Zaeed about his old rifle "Jessy", he tells a story about a mission 5 years back where he "carved his way through 100 batarian mooks." He then states that he didn't "remember ejecting a clip once..."

If this was 5 years ago, that was a full 3 years before thermal clip technology was even introduced (and the weapon itself was much older still).

It really seems like it was originally BioWare's intention to simply retcon thermal clips in, but then they decided to shoehorn it into the lore at the last minute without bothering to check for inconsistencies.

Dont want to make a big deal of this but it could also be a jab at ME1, like when you talk to Conrad Verner and he jokes about helping people and rooting around in boxes.

The Verner bit is a pretty equal jab at ME2. Especially since you're now hacking bank terminals and cracking wall safes. Your credit addiction is clearly getting the better of you.

[Onyx Jaguar]

There should be encounters in ME 3 where people send mercs after you for stealing from them.

[JaegerBane]

Tven0 wrote...
When you wake up as Shepard, after 2 years basically in a coma, you walk over to the gun that Miranda is asking you to pick up. And what does Shepard say after picking up the gun?

He says: 'There's no thermal clip for this weapon'.

O_O

Shepard is a quick learner, but he isn't THAT quick.

I simply assumed that the concept of Thermal Clips, and initial modifications designed to support them, had been around back when Shepard was being sent after the Geth at the start of ME2 - the implication in the codex being that the development of thermal clips was a part of the military rebuilding carried out in the wake of the Geth attack.

I assumed the only thing that was surprising for Shep was that *all* guns were using thermal clips after his re-animation, rather than the few prototypes his team would have been equipped with.

[JaegerBane]

Tven0 wrote...

The base you're in is clearly under attack, you're being shouted at by some woman you don't know to get up and get out of the room, and all you can think about is the new ammo system when you pick up a gun?

Uh....

I hardly think it's a strange thing to be concerned about your ammo in such a situation. I mean, are you implying that it isn't worth his concern that his gun can fire?

[Ooga600]

You shouldn't need an in-game explanation for every little gameplay change Bioware made for ME2.

[JKoopman]

Ooga600 wrote...

You shouldn't need an in-game explanation for every little gameplay change Bioware made for ME2.

I agree. But when BioWare does make an in-game explanation for a gameplay change, it'd be nice if they made an effort to make it seamless and not full of holes and inconsistencies.

[Sereaph502]

Yes. One single line like this completely ruins the game, doesn't it? It's not like you completely forget about that line the moment you exit the room and continue playing the game, right?

[JKoopman]

Sereaph502 wrote...

Yes. One single line like this completely ruins the game, doesn't it? It's not like you completely forget about that line the moment you exit the room and continue playing the game, right?

It's not just one line. There are several inconsistencies in dialog pointed out throughout this thread that clash with the explanation given (hell, there's an entire freakin' mission that makes no sense if thermal clips were only introduced 2 years prior to ME2).

Modifié par JKoopman, 13 juin 2010 - 07:45 .

[Christmas Ape]

I guess saying "Well, ignore the Codex, it obviously wasn't handled by someone also tasked with level programming, clearly thermal clips are the default, always have been, ME1 was an abstraction of your easy access to clips as an Alliance Commander" just wouldn't give nearly as much potential for pointing at the spilled milk and demanding everyone else feel angry about it too.

[InvaderErl]

I have to say, being a fan of a great many sci fi franchises, the whole ammo retcon is lightweight seriously - if that's the worse we ever have to deal with be grateful.

[kraidy1117]

InvaderErl wrote...

I have to say, being a fan of a great many sci fi franchises, the whole ammo retcon is lightweight seriously - if that's the worse we ever have to deal with be grateful.

It could be worse, look at Star wars. That has WAY more plotholes then ME series does and the plotholes in ME and ME2 are very minor.

[Christmas Ape]

Well, that's because Lucas is a goddamn hack.

[Jonathan Shepard]

Christmas Ape wrote...

It's still fun, if you ask me. At least (hopefully) Bioware realises they need to be a bit mroe careful if they want to please their hardcore fanbase.

[Veritasinpersonam]

It was a dastardly plot by the reality warping Reapers in the hopes that the galactic races would run out of ammo when shooting at them during their inevitable invasion.

[InvaderErl]

Complaints about the implementation of the ammo system continuity-wise is the sort of anal nonsense that Bioware should ignore. Honestly, it doesn't matter - its a non-entity in terms of plot.