674 réponses à ce sujet

[joey_mork84]

Thank you, Mr. Woo! It was getting old having to repeat myself just to get things across.. It's always good to have some back-up to get things back on track.



@Wicked: The only thing "invalid" is the constant ranting over what has already been taken care of. To repeat myself, yet again, "Try again." If not, then lets get things back on track, shall we?

[Stanley Woo]

BrunoB1971 wrote...


I agree with many of the good comments posted here so far.

People should not have had to wait so long fo a serious patch to come up.

What burned people the most is the silence of EA and Bioware on the issues of the game.

With the modding going on that fixes many bugs, it is crystal clear that the game had not gone thru a proper QA before release.

The first few patches were jokes.

Sorry, BrunoB, but you can't at once lambast us for not putting out a patch and then discount the patches we [i]do[/]i put out. That's selective bias, which is bad science.

That big of a company should be ashame to have put a game out that way and they can bless the gaming media and their big wallet on publicity to give the game good ratings and a good shiny appearance overall whilst it was not the case at all.

Or, the game really was good, and a vocal minority are having (sometimes serious) problems with it. Your theory invents collusion and conspiracy between media and industry; mine can be applied universally without assuming anything.

Another thing that burns me is that no one outside this forum seems to speak out about the poor state of the game or even acknowledge it. It does not take a genius to figure this one out. Not all people that posted here about their problems could be potential liars or fabricating things about the game issues just out of spite.

I'll refer you to my paragraph above. Perhaps they're simply not experiencing the problems you are, or aren't experiencing the same problems you are. Maybe their problems aren't game-stoppinc, or aren't affecting their playthroughs. Perhaps--and I'm going out on a limb here, BrunoB--they simply disagree with you?

What Bioware should do to at least "try" to redeem themselves is to patch the damn game properly and offer a "thank you for your patience reward"....aka an upcoming dlc free of charge.

That is right..free of charge to demonstrate that they have the balls to take the blame and the balls to own up like mature grown up people, to take responsability for what they did to their fans.

Perhaps the community should pay a higher price for upcoming DLC or patch, just to show that they really support BioWare and patch development. Or some other arbitrary idea that benefits one side without any thought to the other! You know, to encourage us to "patch the damn game properly" and "offer a "thank you for patching the game" reward".

Sorry, BrunoB, it's not really a negotiation type relationship that we have here. Also, I'm totally joking about the higher price thing. Customers would never go for that sort of thing. by the same token, developers would never allow customers to dictate terms or to suggest what's "fair."

that would be the right thing to do!

Implying any other option would be "wrong." Sorry, BrunoB, i think there are a number of options here which are more equitable. that doesn't even take into account whether I agree with your assessment of the situation or what remedy is required, which I don't. Sorry.

[Wicked 702]

Ok, let me outline our conversation so far and you tell me where I've gone wrong.

Wicked: "You should read some dude's post, I liked it."

Joey: "You're not understanding (missing) Victor's information."

Wicked: "What am I not understanding?"

Joey: (Outlines Victor's explanation.)

Wicked: (Quote's self where he already acknowledged Victor's explanation.) "You didn't read my post clearly."

Joey: "I disagree."

Wicked: "If they're going to release information about fixes as they pass QA, then they're not complete yet. The initial list, given all this time, should have been larger. I'm not satisfied and I don't appreciate you misreading my post."

Joey: "Don't insult my intelligence. It's not necessary." (Discusses previous posts by the other "person" that failed to acknowledge Victor's information.)

Wicked: "That's not what we're talking about here. You said I missed something. I did not. Therefore, your responses are invalid."

Joey: "I still disagree, try again."

Modifié par Wicked 702, 07 juin 2010 - 11:51 .

[Stanley Woo]

Again, Wicked, joey_mork, either take it to private or agree to disagree. your bickering isn't advancing anything.

[joey_mork84]

Ok, first off, where we initially got off wrong at was when you mistakenly thought my initial post (quoted by you as being "You're not understanding (missing) Victor's information.") was directed at you. I clarified what my post said, to which you retaliated, still thinking it was directed at you. It appears it was a misunderstanding from the get-go.

EDIT: Woo Ninja'd me, but my point remains valid.

Modifié par joey_mork84, 08 juin 2010 - 12:00 .

[ozenglish]

*David Attenborough Voice Narrating* And as you can see on the Forum Boards, the prey, all but unaware that it is being watched by the WooSmackdown, blabbers on endlessly in self importance. All the while, giving the WooSmackdown the perfect opportunity to pounce. Which it does, using logic, humour and cunning.

[dr dANGER boy]

Stan,



I hope Bioware, the devs, and the current bug-fixin' dudes don't think that we all hate you. As is true for the laws in any country you abide in, it is always the few that ruin it for the many. For every whiner, complainer, flamer, etc there are 20 who are content to wait and realize that games are not life and we don't need things NOW NOW NOW.



Thanks for your work. Know that there ARE mature gamers out there who appreciate quality stuff. Thanks for the updates!

[Branji]

Stanley said: Nah, we're awesome at fixing bugs. We do it all the time. We're just terrible at fixing each individual's MOST IMPORTANT BUGS THAT ARE SO EASY TO FIX all the time to their satisfaction according to their schedule NOW NOW NOW.



Me: Excuse me, but no patches released (for others) after the one PC fans received is not NOW,NOW,NOW. It was -when are the rest of the version going to get a patch?



Stanley said : something that involves the community more



Me: Involves the community more? The fans have reported in MANY threads about the bugs and how they found many of them. They have done almost everything but wipe your bottoms and you want more? The fans are doing their share. Bioware isn't.



Stanley said: We can't NOT tell you anything because then y'all yell at us for being uncommunicative. We can't keep telling you that "we're working on it" (usually the best we can say at any given time without making any promises) because then y'all yell at us for being non-communicative.



Me: No. The problem was Bioware didn't give any useful info about what was being worked on, etc. The Bioware posts were virtually useless. Don't blame the fans for Bioware's lack of useful communications.



Stanley said: Do you think we like trolling the tech support forums for bug reports?



Me: I'll be blunt. Damn right you should be going through the tech support forums. You wrote the game. It should be your job. EA has been almost useless. If you had read the forums from the beginning and actually used the info, bug fix patches for everyone would have occurred much sooner.

PC modmakers used the same forums to get things done. Qwinn's file alone is a great source of info. I suggest you actually read it. Your fans have done a lot for you. RETURN THE FAVOR.



After your post I felt I had to respond to your piece of nonsense. Now to see if Bioware will do the right thing. We'll see.

[joey_mork84]

And it continues..

@Woo: I won't feed the troll if you don't..

[Wicked 702]

Stanley, you can protest all you want about the "me me me" "now Now NOW!" people all you want, however that doesn't change the fact that we're at the 7 month marker. And since I play this game on a console I'll say it once again....as far as bug fixes go the consoles have pretty much gotten squat. Now I know all about the resources required and the proper procedures that have to be taken, I'm a corporate cubicle peon too. I know all about that stuff since I occasionally help write some PnPs with the managers I work with. But the sad truth is that it's all meaningless.



Your company has made a CHOICE to allocate resources in a specific way. That CHOICE has resulted in the (growing) perception that your company has not provided a satisfactory amount of support for your product. They could be wrong. You could be wrong. What isn't in contention here is that a long list of bugs, organized by the community, has existed from almost launch day. And for the consoles, it's taken 7 months to even BEGIN to address them.



I think that's bullpucky. Sure, that's just my opinion. But clearly I'm not alone. Is this the new standard? This type of time-frame is acceptable now? Because if it is....and that's how you're going to operate going forward....I'm afraid I'm not going to want to do business with your company anymore. Because I don't think you're the norm. I have too many current examples showing otherwise to back you up on this.

[Arttis]

Branji wrote...

Stanley said: Nah, we're awesome at fixing bugs. We do it all the time. We're just terrible at fixing each individual's MOST IMPORTANT BUGS THAT ARE SO EASY TO FIX all the time to their satisfaction according to their schedule NOW NOW NOW.

Me: Excuse me, but no patches released (for others) after the one PC fans received is not NOW,NOW,NOW. It was -when are the rest of the version going to get a patch?

Stanley said : something that involves the community more

Me: Involves the community more? The fans have reported in MANY threads about the bugs and how they found many of them. They have done almost everything but wipe your bottoms and you want more? The fans are doing their share. Bioware isn't.

Stanley said: We can't NOT tell you anything because then y'all yell at us for being uncommunicative. We can't keep telling you that "we're working on it" (usually the best we can say at any given time without making any promises) because then y'all yell at us for being non-communicative.

Me: No. The problem was Bioware didn't give any useful info about what was being worked on, etc. The Bioware posts were virtually useless. Don't blame the fans for Bioware's lack of useful communications.

Stanley said: Do you think we like trolling the tech support forums for bug reports?

Me: I'll be blunt. Damn right you should be going through the tech support forums. You wrote the game. It should be your job. EA has been almost useless. If you had read the forums from the beginning and actually used the info, bug fix patches for everyone would have occurred much sooner.
PC modmakers used the same forums to get things done. Qwinn's file alone is a great source of info. I suggest you actually read it. Your fans have done a lot for you. RETURN THE FAVOR.

After your post I felt I had to respond to your piece of nonsense. Now to see if Bioware will do the right thing. We'll see.

Branji lets just say you get no say.
Bioware *wants* to make customers happy/ so they give you a forum to speak on and have people try to tend to your overexaggereated needs.
Bioware does *not* *need* to make customers happy
but then what do i know:lol:

[Stanley Woo]

dr dANGER boy wrote...
I hope Bioware, the devs, and the current bug-fixin' dudes don't think that we all hate you. As is true for the laws in any country you abide in, it is always the few that ruin it for the many. For every whiner, complainer, flamer, etc there are 20 who are content to wait and realize that games are not life and we don't need things NOW NOW NOW.

don't worry, we're well aware that thre are lots of folks, some of who--imagine that!--don't post in this thread who like us very much. i personally like to see the best in people, and believe that folks are generally good and want us to do the best we can. we appreciate that. Heck, we even appreciate when people []idon't[/i] like us, since by participating in our community, they're showing us they're at least trying to help us make better games, maybe ones they'll enjoy more next time.

Where I draw the line is outright hostility and requiring us to go back in time to make things right, or folks who have dug in their heels so much, they won't even give an inch or demonstrate their minds can maybe possibly be changed.

Thanks for your work. Know that there ARE mature gamers out there who appreciate quality stuff. Thanks for the updates!

Yup, we see you!

[switzki]

At the risk of being branded a rabble-rouser...

Stanley Woo wrote...
we're trying to come up with a better way of doing things like this--something that involves the community more, something that gets regular communication updates to you guys, something to make it all easier and far less hostile.

Honestly, don't even hint at announcing a release date for SW:TOR until you have a better system in place. The level of hostility displayed on these forums pales in comparison to what goes on in the MMO space, and paid subscribers will not patiently wait 7+ months for substantive fixes or news of same. Granted, subscription fees generate more grease for the wheels of development, but the caliber and timeliness of support offered for your current flagship franchises are going to set expectations of quality for the next.

One of the biggest problems with the current model is the impression that EA and BioWare are passing the buck with gameplay support. Unless you have a defective disc or a missing manual, EA Support ultimately directs you to these tech support forums for resolution (after insisting that you wipe your HDD and do a full reinstall). And what do you find here? A stickied message telling you that all official support is handled through EA. If it looks like a run-around, and it sounds like a run-around, and it smells like a run-around...

I don't follow the PC or PS3 tech support forums, but in the Xbox 360 tech support forum there isn't a single sticky describing any of the common, currently outstanding issues that might have prompted a visit to that forum in the first place. Not one. The search function didn't even work for some time. So, from a customer's perspective, the official gameplay support is an implicit "you're on your own". I doubt that this is your intent, but it shouldn't surprise anyone that so many community members now believe that product support isn't a particularly high priority for you. Changing that perception is going to require more than a "we're working on fixes, but these things take time" post every couple of months, especially when expansions and DLC keep popping out of the pipeline (and presumably have to jump through the same testing and certification hoops).

Despite the apparent negativity, I'm actually a BioWare supporter (or I wouldn't still be posting here). I think the developers want the players to be happy with their games. I do what I can to help Xbox 360 players get their questions answered. I'd like for DA:O to get some polish. I think developer-player communication needs improvement. I don't think the current customer support model is appropriate for a company with aspirations of success in the MMO space.

Modifié par switzki, 08 juin 2010 - 05:49 .

[Stanley Woo]

Wicked 702 wrote...

Stanley, you can protest all you want about the "me me me" "now Now NOW!" people all you want, however that doesn't change the fact that we're at the 7 month marker. And since I play this game on a console I'll say it once again....as far as bug fixes go the consoles have pretty much gotten squat. Now I know all about the resources required and the proper procedures that have to be taken, I'm a corporate cubicle peon too. I know all about that stuff since I occasionally help write some PnPs with the managers I work with. But the sad truth is that it's all meaningless.

i believe I've mentioned before that I'm not going to get into the console side of things. this is because I am less familiar with the hardware, was never on a team which dealt primarily with the consoles, and am primarily a PC gamer. i am not qualified to say with any certainty what console patch development is like.

Your company has made a CHOICE to allocate resources in a specific way. That CHOICE has resulted in the (growing) perception that your company has not provided a satisfactory amount of support for your product. They could be wrong. You could be wrong. What isn't in contention here is that a long list of bugs, organized by the community, has existed from almost launch day. And for the consoles, it's taken 7 months to even BEGIN to address them.

I disagree, but I am not at liberty to discuss that any further. All I can say is "there are strange things done in the midnight sun / By the men who moil for gold." not helpful or at all informative, i know, but I can't elaborate.

I think that's bullpucky. Sure, that's just my opinion. But clearly I'm not alone. Is this the new standard? This type of time-frame is acceptable now? Because if it is....and that's how you're going to operate going forward....I'm afraid I'm not going to want to do business with your company anymore. Because I don't think you're the norm. I have too many current examples showing otherwise to back you up on this.

And that's fair. And as i believe I've said before, Nathan Willis has already mentioned a willingness to engage in more collaborative methods (that's working with the community rather than having the community dictate to us what should be worked on) of patch development. Certainly, we are always trying to do things better.

[Arttis]

us with x box 360 do really feel like were the undesirable bastard children of a surface dwarf.

We may return with a vengeance.

Do not mind me though....

[BelSirk]

Waiting for the 1.04 patch, if i remembered correctly with NWN1 Bioware take some time but this time the game it's for PS3, XBox and PC, but exactly how you can add patch to game on those console ? (Oh well, better read Wikipedia)



Anyway, i'll be happy once there is a date for the new patch

[Gaxhung]

The thing that sets me off is not the state of bugs, which for me is on and off, its far from unplayable (for me), what gets me going is the folks who regularly speak for Bioware when they know nothing of whats really happening, that is simply patronizing, even condescending. That makes me take an anti-Bioware stance just so I don't sound like that, which itself is a total waste of my time. I'm expecting info here, but I get well meaning guessing.

@Stanley Woo
Maybe you guys come up with a bug report format, so when we report bugs on the forums, we stick to a structured format. If we have any grieviences to voice, at least we won't dirty the bug report and you guys don't have to wade thru piles of "noise" to get to the "meat".

For a moment there when reading your post, I saw Master Wade saying "No one appreciates". Hang tough.

Modifié par Gaxhung, 08 juin 2010 - 12:41 .

[DragonRageGT]

You know, DA is one of the greatest games ever. i have over 100 movies of it published to prove it. People who know the game love them, people who don't, fall in love with it. I have even a few movies showing some bugs. I can't remember a game where version 1.00 came out and was bug free, therefore never needing patching. I can't understand all the stupid comments about the company. Let them work!



Blizzard is a good example of a good company supporting their products with patches throughout the years even for a 1998 game like Diablo 1. Bioware always patched their games in the same style and yes, while it may be a bit of a long wait regarding some DA:O annoying issues, the game is very much playable and enjoyable. The issues are annoying but they are not game stopping and, more important, they are not issues we bump into every 5 minutes in a 100 hours gameplay. I myself find them very minor and scarce around my 100 hours playthourghs each. Of course I want them fixed. Of course they are annoying. But I can still enjoy the game for what it is and make some cool movies in the process. Let the guys work. At least they confirmed they are. Not like some EA titles that never got patched at all no matter how much complain about bugs there were.



Now, someone posted a link for some other game's forum where devs post a diary of patch development. Nice indeed. But considering what this thread has become, I strongly suggest Bioware to re-post the original OP and do not allow any reply except from authorized people, i.e. Bioware stuff. That way the thread will be clean and informative as it should, as the other game's forum is. And this is the Announcement Forum, not the bash the hell out of the devs forum. We cannot initiate topics in this section. For some threads I insist that we should not be allowed to comment either. Please repost the OP and any subsequent BW posts regarding the OP and keep it a clean thread with the information about the patch development.



The way it is, even if Victor post that the patch is ready, it might get lost 10 pages behind the continuing stupid discussion that has already many threads in other sections of the forums to feed the trolls, fanboys, extreme gamers, etc.

[ozenglish]

I agree with RageGT on this one.

[joey_mork84]

I strongly agree, as well, Rage. Great idea!

[Colloquiallism]

Gaxhung wrote...

The thing that sets me off is not the state of bugs, which for me is on and off, its far from unplayable (for me), what gets me going is the folks who regularly speak for Bioware when they know nothing of whats really happening, that is simply patronizing, even condescending. That makes me take an anti-Bioware stance just so I don't sound like that, which itself is a total waste of my time. I'm expecting info here, but I get well meaning guessing.

I totally agree, fanboys suck. 


But really all I want is my Vigilance to not look like Starfang - Since there's dev posts all over this I'm inclined to think it might work out.  Thanks much.

[ladydesire]

RageGT: Victor could update his first post, as is often the case when new information is made available.

[nen]

Stanley/Victor: could you please provide us with an updated list of every bugfix that has passed QA and is 100% confirmed to be in 1.04 for all three platforms?

[BrunoB1971]

Stanley Woo wrote...

BrunoB1971 wrote...


I agree with many of the good comments posted here so far.

People should not have had to wait so long fo a serious patch to come up.

What burned people the most is the silence of EA and Bioware on the issues of the game.

With the modding going on that fixes many bugs, it is crystal clear that the game had not gone thru a proper QA before release.

The first few patches were jokes.

Sorry, BrunoB, but you can't at once lambast us for not putting out a patch and then discount the patches we [i]do[/]i put out. That's selective bias, which is bad science.

That big of a company should be ashame to have put a game out that way and they can bless the gaming media and their big wallet on publicity to give the game good ratings and a good shiny appearance overall whilst it was not the case at all.

Or, the game really was good, and a vocal minority are having (sometimes serious) problems with it. Your theory invents collusion and conspiracy between media and industry; mine can be applied universally without assuming anything.

Another thing that burns me is that no one outside this forum seems to speak out about the poor state of the game or even acknowledge it. It does not take a genius to figure this one out. Not all people that posted here about their problems could be potential liars or fabricating things about the game issues just out of spite.

I'll refer you to my paragraph above. Perhaps they're simply not experiencing the problems you are, or aren't experiencing the same problems you are. Maybe their problems aren't game-stoppinc, or aren't affecting their playthroughs. Perhaps--and I'm going out on a limb here, BrunoB--they simply disagree with you?

What Bioware should do to at least "try" to redeem themselves is to patch the damn game properly and offer a "thank you for your patience reward"....aka an upcoming dlc free of charge.

That is right..free of charge to demonstrate that they have the balls to take the blame and the balls to own up like mature grown up people, to take responsability for what they did to their fans.

Perhaps the community should pay a higher price for upcoming DLC or patch, just to show that they really support BioWare and patch development. Or some other arbitrary idea that benefits one side without any thought to the other! You know, to encourage us to "patch the damn game properly" and "offer a "thank you for patching the game" reward".

Sorry, BrunoB, it's not really a negotiation type relationship that we have here. Also, I'm totally joking about the higher price thing. Customers would never go for that sort of thing. by the same token, developers would never allow customers to dictate terms or to suggest what's "fair."

that would be the right thing to do!

Implying any other option would be "wrong." Sorry, BrunoB, i think there are a number of options here which are more equitable. that doesn't even take into account whether I agree with your assessment of the situation or what remedy is required, which I don't. Sorry.

Sorry Stanley, but i am not falling for that big corporate lingo of yours on what the company thinks about this and that. I know, i work for the government and i know when people use big words and sentences to belittle other people.

Fact of the matter is that if the game was in good shape, there would not be that many people posting and opening multitudes of redundant threads on the problems of the game. We could write an HBO 10 part mini series just with this site alone on what people think about the game, the company and the people are who really trying to help.

Another fact is that you are trying to defend the franchise which is honorable because it is your bread and butter but it is a little too late for many people.

Another fact is that you fail to recognize that people complain about the problem of the game because they love the damn thing and want it to work right.

Bioware as given us something good but it is an unfinished product. You cannot deny that even if you write multiple paragraph about your views and those of the company at the moment.

I do not blame the angry people at all, but instead of coming here and adding a corporate grain of salt to most comments now. Consider that there is a ton of people reading these and they might just be turned off by your corporate point of view.

Bioware is not the only company making games, There is a huge amount of companies just waiting to snatch your thunder. I wonder if this is what Bioware wants in the end. I said earlier when i joined in this merry forum that at one point a little game called Diablo 3 would come out. Blizzard is notorious on holding off releasing something until they feel it is really polished to death...I know it is not the same game but who do you think would win if Diablo 3 would come out or would have came out at same time as dragon age. Dragon age would already be in the bargain bin and all of Korea and most of the computer geeks would be playing Diablo instead of dragon age.

If you produce quality then people will let you know it is a good product. Sure there will be eternal complainers. I would entirely be on Bioware's side if there were a fair amount of threads, but if you look at this forums. It counts in the thousands of pages spread all over the place and that is only the english portion of the forums. To my account and inside my monkey brain,it says something is definetly wrong. Plus to top it off, most people have described in details the problem of the game many times overs. So why can't Bioware cant' "get it", "get on with it"

Do their Mea Culpa and be on their merry way.

In final closing:

"you reep what you sow"

nuff said...

[Wicked 702]

nen wrote...

Stanley/Victor: could you please provide us with an updated list of every bugfix that has passed QA and is 100% confirmed to be in 1.04 for all three platforms?

I think that's the intention. At least that's what Victor indicated to me on page 2. However, I'm guessing not much has changed since Friday. At least I doubt much has changed anyway. Who knows...