161 réponses à ce sujet

[Linarc]

Actually, not always it is the parent's fault...

My brother (he is 9) is his neighboor (11) best friend (and vice-versa), and his parents let him play all kind of games and see not suitable movies. My brother just come home saying he played GTA and watched the Curious Case of Benjamin Button, and I get sooo angry, because I can't do nothing and it won't be polite talking to his parents or him about it, I have nothing to do with them... My brother likes to play it, so he won't refuse either...

Well, when I first played GTA I was 11 (GTA II at play1) and I know it is not an excuse, but there weren't the graphical violence we have now, and I didn't understand english, so it didn't do any harm. I don't think it will do to my brother either, but the ESRB has a reason for existing, and I wished he stopped playing them... But, I explained him some things, I hope he understood it...

[Bebbe777]

But we can't blame video games all the time. There has always been people who has had great issues with authority and generally bad humans. True, there is more troubled youngsters today but again, we can't point the finger against the gaming industry, there is so much more behind it all. To solely blame video game is to take the easy way.

[Talin Cousland]

Bebbe777 wrote...

But we can't blame video games all the time. There has always been people who has had great issues with authority and generally bad humans. True, there is more troubled youngsters today but again, we can't point the finger against the gaming industry, there is so much more behind it all. To solely blame video game is to take the easy way.

If your referring to my post and the kids playing Call of Duty 4.  I certainly did not meant to derail the OP's thread.

I agree, game makers do not cause that.  That's like saying some kid commited suicide for listening to a Judas Priest album backwards on his record player.  As a teen, I listened to a band called Triumph.  Not a top 40 band.  They were a progressive rock band throught the late 70's and early 80's.  Most of their songs had a message.  I really liked them for that.

I just want games to have a message.  Most movies do not have messages.  Some do.  It's just nice to actually learn something from a video game.  Games do NOT have to rot people minds.  

[AClockworkMelon]

Robert Emerald wrote...

I agree with most here. I also believe that what we need is an A (adult) or AO (adults only) rating. It's not that hard at all. Some of us enjoy story content, character choices, diologue, our varied philosophical views and the good, evil and everything in between that leads to an amazing and unforgetable CRPG experience. Certain aspects of realism in a gaming world is a must for some of us.

There ARE Adult-Rated games. That rating DOES exist. But no stores carry them. Gamestop, Gamecrazy, Target, Wal-Mart, they don't carry adult-rated games. It's part of their policy.

So to make a game that gets an A rating is an effective death sentence. Result? Nobody makes A-rated games.

[Phoenixblight]

Irisenne wrote...

On top of it all, most of the society (mostly very religious people and, sadly, Americans - or their media) needs to accept the fact that adult scenes are OK in games and that it's not going to corrupt children and what not. I mean, if it was all that bad, the child could just browse off to one of many pornographic websites and see ACTUAL people there.

Don't go blaming AMerican society it isn't us if it was God of War, Codemned, Jericho wouldn't  be allowed. Look up Heavy Rain. The nudity thing is something Bioware felt wasn't neccessary for whatever reason afterall Mass Effect had lesbian sex atleast that is what Fox says and yet Bioware didn't remove it even if the content was PG13 at best.

When you point a finger, you have 3 other fingers pointing at yourself.

[Foxd1e]

Rivie wrote...

I've always, always voted for more options rather than less. I think it's wonderful when a game that has a setting can put in things that actually make sense in that setting. Having bubbly fairies in a bright, colorful fantasy setting fit just as much as the more adult content fit in a harsh, dark, gritty setting like this. I agree that it's a shame critics can't see that games truly can be art, if done right. They tell stories just as much as any book or movie. The only difference is that in a game, you can actually affect the flow of the story, or at least play a small role in the fulfillment of said story.

Yes, it's a shame how easily violence is accepted and how much any hint of sexuality is looked on in disgust.  I don't want a game completely based on sex, that's just not how I am, but if it fits in the context of the story, I see no reason why it's a problem to have it there.

Actually I have contended with several groups now, be they professors, students, colleagues, coworkers, friends etc... that videogames are becoming a form of art. Take Braid for example which can be considered art by it's looks alone. Other games can be considered a form of art by their stories, characters, and plot. For me, Videogames have been ousting movies as a better focal point of visual expression for a few years now. Sure I still love a good movie, but I'm touched more by a good game

[Lucy Glitter]

Jab0r wrote...

I heartily approve of the OP.

You should start writing a blog or something.

QFT

Please write more. It was a pleasure to read and I agree 100 percent.

[Robert Emerald]

AClockworkMelon wrote...

Robert Emerald wrote...

I agree with most here. I also believe that what we need is an A (adult) or AO (adults only) rating. It's not that hard at all. Some of us enjoy story content, character choices, diologue, our varied philosophical views and the good, evil and everything in between that leads to an amazing and unforgetable CRPG experience. Certain aspects of realism in a gaming world is a must for some of us.

There ARE Adult-Rated games. That rating DOES exist. But no stores carry them. Gamestop, Gamecrazy, Target, Wal-Mart, they don't carry adult-rated games. It's part of their policy.

So to make a game that gets an A rating is an effective death sentence. Result? Nobody makes A-rated games.

True! I should have spoken more clearly. I was reffering to a Medieval type setting. If you know of any such games, please let me know where I can purchase one. Thanks!

[Robert Emerald]

Bebbe777 wrote...

or games where you have to read alot and make decisions after decisions after decisions. Most of them want plain FPS or Adventure games.

So true!

[Hidghetti]

Just to add my two cents here, I think you can blame some video games to a certain degree for the increased violence and confusion in some youths, but it is not soley on the game developers, you have to consider that the world is not the same place it was 50 or 20 even 10 years ago, teen pregnancy rates are on the rise, and in alot of cases these young parents have not developed fully yet and are not in any financial state to properly raise, support and supervise their children, to some degree which is their own fault, but even with fully mature adults many have to work multiple jobs to support their families so they do not have they ability or option to supervise what their kids do, or watch or play. In addition to that with schools and classes being over populated and teachers being overworked most of them don't care like they used to leaving alot of children in a position of having no role models or proper supervision or even proper teaching of right and wrong, if people are going to start throwing blame around you cannot simply blame any one thing, it is everything combined that causes the problems, and considering the way everything is going I can only imagine everything will continue to get worse!



Sorry I know that is basicly one long run on sentence, but I am too lazy to edit it

[AClockworkMelon]

Youth violence has been on the down since the 70s. There's nothing wrong with violence in our culture. We've always been violent. The media's portrayal of violence is the only thing that's changed.

[Arttis]

If anything video game violence calms our violent nature....maybe?

[Foxd1e]

Baelin Firestorm wrote...

In response to Dennis,

Without going into detail, we share a lot in common. I remember a quote from Mass Effect which basically goes, "Genius and madness are two sides of the same coin." In truth, I believe genius "is" the coin. Madness is one side of it. Apathy is the other. Genius is the ability to truly see the world. That includes recognizing both the dark and light aspects of it. Madness is letting the world get to you to the extent that it creates confusion over trying to rationalize both sides of the good/bad equation and finding yourself unsure of which side you're on. Apathy is the coping mechanism of truly seeing the world, but not delving too deep into it by dismissing the effort of making sense of it as a pointless exercise; which in turn shields you from personal introspection.

That said... ...welcome to my world.

Very interesting Baelin. I like your model but I would plug in a slightly different method than the one you chose. Genius certainly is the lens or the "coin" if you were. But the way I see it is Madness and Apathy are not sides to the coin, the coin is blank. The coin represents what you choose to question. Now add a thumb and forefinger, as a springboard and add a hand, this represents you, your psyche, your beliefs, your morals, all of you. Now when you flip the coin in the air is when you are questioning, inquiring, brooding. The higher the coin flips  the further from sanity and the closer to madness, a sane question ripples on your psyche lightly when it lands an insane question lands hard and causes tremendous pressure on you. When that pressure breaches by the inability to rationalize what was discovered is when madness seeps in. This could just be a brush with madness->, but If the pysche is cracked more serious consequences occur->

[dragoager]

How far is too far? At some point even the flexible limits of acceptable taste are broken. It's all well and good to say, "I want blood! I want sex!",but what happens when you combine the two?

When every kill provides enough arterial spurting to repaint a small gazebo, and you can't even tell which character is which through all the gray matter and grime, is it appropriate for them to suddenly be in the mood for some lovin' ?

I think we are all in agreement that content like this should definitely be left out of the hands of kids, but has a video game ever been too over the top for your personal tastes - morally, ethically, carnally, artistically?

A significant difference between video games with that of other media like paintings, literature, and television is that the participant doesn't just sit passively observing, but takes an active roll in the story by making choices facilitating the outcome. With other media you can disagree with the painter, writer, director,etc.... as the story railroads to it's ultimate and only conclusion. Who do you argue with when you are the one deciding the factors within the confines of the story structure, and it doesn't turn out to your liking? (besides the game's producer)

Video games offer a consequence free environment to peruse some of the more seedier elements of the human psyche. When a movie ends in victory for the villain, we can pass it off as a cautionary tale of human nature run amok. What happens when you're the villain? What happens if you decide you like it? What issues are too "hot" even for you? Simulated torture, drug use, racism?

Games allow for freedom of thought and freedom of choice. This scares some people, mainly over paternalistic political safety nannies who know what's better for your own good than you do.

Modifié par dragoager, 21 octobre 2009 - 05:17 .

[Darke1]

I agree with the OP and yes, when it is in the context of the story and world and not just there for the sake of it, then nudity and adult themes should be as acceptable in games as they are in films.



The mature rating on the game should be there for a reason, but, much as you do with films, you then have the problems for retailers of not selling such games to anyone under a certain age, or age identification and so on.



No matter what you do, there will always be a vocal minority trying to stop it, bring it down and label it as evil, and while we mostly accept violence in games, there are groups already against that and say it leads to children going on real life killing sprees.



I have to say, there are some games out there that i think maybe do go over the top with their themes, level of violence or often glamorising things that should be frowned upon and not considered cool, but then i just dont buy those games, that is my option and choice.



All-in-all, if the themes and mature nature of a game suit the story and overall concept, then it should be allowed (from nudity to bloody violence), otherwise, what is the point of putting an age rating on a game?

[Mordaedil]

Ironically, if everyone chose "option A", then the woman wouldn't be in the situation to begin with, would she? There'd be at least 3 or 4 guys chosing to perform the rape there, which means they already threw option A out the window.

I think it's important to realize that media tells us stories, but it's not always clear what the stories try to tell us. A lot of kids pick up morality and behavior from media, where they often try to explain at early ages that being good is rewarding and they tell that through very bright colors.

In reality, bright colors indicate something bad. The brightest toads and snakes are the most venomous, blood stands out against almost everything and has taught us survival for over some thousands of years.

Enter now when we're at different periods of life depending on what has happened earlier. Parents who have taught their children from early on morality will already have it ingrained and will pick it up no further at a certain age. If the child has not been satisfied morally from early age, it could be problematic when they play adult video games.



Usually, morality is inspired by rolemodels and thus is an entirely different issue altogether.



I'm glad Bioware doesn't shy away from making mature games, but we're still getting pretty vague maturity in these games. Often they lack the thing that truly makes it mature, which is realistic consequences. All too often you'll see psychic guards, possess an inability to disobey order, or even be able to evade punishment all too easily.

I'd love to see a game of true consequences one day.



One day...

[Arttis]

Come on brain altering then Utopia.200 more years

[Baelin Firestorm]

Playing a little catch up here on responses, so please bear with me and "please, for the love of God" just skip over this post if you have very little patience...

Some people feel heavily about the "children" equation; i.e., should children have access to adult oriented content. Personally, no. Even if a parent thinks it's okay to expose their children to content clearly intended for adults, I still think it is a mistake. Young minds have enough difficulty trying to cope with the transition from child to adult. The process is already a maelstrom of emotions, thoughts, realizations, and ambiguities'. Children will eventually have to come to terms with harsh adult scenarios, but hopefully they'll be better mentally prepared to address and assess them as adults. Bottom line, let's keep kids out of the equation. Their relevance in this topic is non sequitur.

---

Does content in games have the capability to steer fragile minds down wrong paths? Hmm... I might be shooting myself in the foot here, but it "may" have a little influence in that area. In most cases, I believe people absorb content based on their own likes and curiosities. If you like horror movies, then you watch horror movies. If I had to categorize various media into terms of how each can affect the participant, I'd probably go this route:

1. Movies - Participant is a spectator with little interactive involvement. The content of the movie may evoke feelings and thoughts in the viewer but the movie is still detached and separate.

2. Books - While the story in a book still forms a linear pace as movies do, there is a property to reading that movies can't capture. The reader needs to draw more from their imagination to follow the story. Even the most descriptive author still has to yield to a readers ability to interpret and absorb. Readers take in the authors words, but they fill in small vacancies based on their own psychological makeup.

3. Music - Music is more powerful than I think most realize. I'm not referring specifically to lyrical content, although many listeners do find a bond with certain lyrics because they feel personally connected to the message. I'm talking about the music itself. I can't speak for everyone, but music (to me) is a very visceral experience. It's evocative and thought provoking. I've been on longer mental and spiritual journeys listening to music than from any other form of media. Side note: I do a lot of graphic arts and music (as a background influence) helps me shape what I create.

4. Interactive media (i.e., Computer games, PnP games, etc.) - When I say "computer games," I'm not referring to games that have strict linear progression. To me, a FPS with nothing but a start and an end where you have to follow a specific path between the two is just a button masher. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy an occasional FPS game, but that "type" of game is not relevant here. I'm referring to a RPG where choice dictates progression. That said, I do believe that a well-written role playing game that affords the player the ability to "pick a side" can be one of the most personal experiences a participant can get into. Unlike movies, books, or music, the participant wrestles with their conscious. Granted, it is still a game and there are no real consequences, but that's not the point. The point is that it is a role playing game and if the participant is taking that with any level of seriousness, then they find themselves in situations where they have to decide the outcome.

Before moving on, let me state that while I believe interactive games have a stronger impact on people, that doesn't mean games create monsters. If an individual is destined to have a negative impact on society, they will become that way regardless of what stimuli they absorb along the path. You can go back and rifle through a mass murderers library and probably find numerous flags that make some say, "Aha!" but what truly sends most people over the edge is not what they are doing in the privacy of their own homes, but rather the culmination of their experiences with other people in the real world. Media doesn't make madmen. People do.

---

I made an example of a scenario that "could" exist in DA:O. Specifically, the girl in the alley. I left the "D" choice as "fill in the blank." The reason for this is that "D" could be an extremely cruel act on your part, or something only slightly less distasteful than "C." Many chose to view my example as a "would you get involved" situation; which is fine. In truth, I was aiming more for a "would you be her salvation, or add to her misery" scenario. In that case, "D" becomes a darker detour.

---

What do I experience playing games such as Mass Effect or DA:O? I remember playing Mass Effect for the first time. I was given choices of responses. There was clearly a paragon (good) and renegade (bad) direction. My first inclination is to chose only the paragon responses, which I did. I completed the game as a "saviour of the wasteland" (sorry, F3 ref., but I had to). I then replayed going the total renegade path. Afterwards, I realized I was more comfortable with the paragon path but something still didn't sit right. I wasn't being completely honest in my decisions. There were some choices that I felt renegade seemed right. I played through again but this time I tried to rationalize each situation and make choice based on my own personal view. I ended up almost split down the middle. I "did the right thing" in some situations. In others, I "did what had to be done" or "what my gut told me to do." Ironically, playing the game doing things based on my real feelings of the choices felt less rewarding. I already know what it is like to live with my decisions. It's called real life. Exploring a world where I became perfectly good, or exceptionally evil, broadened the experience. Am I making sense? Not sure at this point. Anywho...

---

One response referenced "Pool of Radiance". 2 points for you! PoR was a follow up to Wasteland (referenced in my OP). Good game.

---

There's a whole debate between Fallout 3 and the predecessors (FO1, FO2, FOT). One of the strangest arguments being raised is how Fallout 3 is not a true successor because you can't kill kids. There are others regarding sex, prostitution, cannibalism, etc.. but the "kid" thing hit a nerve with me. I've played the entire FO line and remember the ability to kill children in 1 and 2. Yes, children "could" die in the early games, but there were no missions that called for it. If a child died, then it was because they were caught in the crossfire, or you were just inclined to do it. Personally, I think if you get your jollies off'ing children then there is definitely some fried circuitry going on up there. However, I think having children in the game that are vulnerable to damage and death was "not" a mistake. For me, children in FO meant having to watch what you did. It added a level of intensity to close combat in populated areas. While I don't applaud those that want "killable kids" as a sick duck hunt side game, I do think having vulnerable children in a game "does" add intensity; if that makes sense...

---

Nudity? To this day, I don't understand the stigma (U.S. puritan origins? Bleh!), but I do respect an individual's right to want to avoid it. However, to extend their right to the point that they remove it from my experience goes beyond their purview. Do parents have the right to police their children? Of course. However, when someone with a strong ecclesiastical belief structure feels it is their divine right to save my soul by censoring my available choices, then that's where I have to speak up. Sorry, not a big fan of marionette strings.

NOTE: I'd suggest the inclusion of a "censor" option in the configuration panel of a game that would offer some means of avoidance (pixel cubism, blurring, big rubber stamp with the word "Blasphemy" etc.) for nudity, but that won't sate the opposers. It's not just the presence of questionable content, it's the temptation to view it that scares them the most. But that's the thing, isn't it? For some organizations, individuals can not be trusted to police themselves because they are weak. Personally, I think Sigmund Freud is a creepy perv, but he did perceive people exploring their own darker urges as a healthy exercise in the pursuit of genuine understanding. As you have probably already surmised, I'm all for letting people decide their own personal levels of what they want to take in.

---

Blood? Splatter decals? Severed limbs? Hate to break this to the opposers of this type of inclusion but severe trauma to another individual with a weapon isn't pretty. I think it is more dangerous to let people think that stabbing is bloodless, or that a massive explosion is nothing more than a way to catapult a body with rag doll physics yet leave the body intact. Reality check.. ..human bodies are fragile. No, really! Which is worse.. ..letting a person see the results of their violent actions, or letting them commit violent acts under the belief that the outcome is virtually inconsequential?

---

Is there a need for a stronger rating than "Mature?" Actually, I think there is a wisdom in coining the rating "mature" as opposed to just using an age bracket such as PG-13 or NC17. Think about it. The rating doesn't exclude you simply on age. I've met "mature" teenagers and more "immature" adults than I would have preferred. No, to me the "mature" rating is perfect in and of itself. It summarizes (in one word) what you should be going into the subject. If you can't go into it with a "mature" and open mind then they have these things called Legos. They're really cool. You can make realistic space ships and everything. They're AWESOME! /sarcasm off.

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The moral majority is neither; 'nuff said.

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The GTA series "does" glorify sex and violence. Bioware titles do not, IMO. Note: I play GTA titles but this is not the arena for that discussion.

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Can you go overboard or be tasteless with nudity? Of course, but if that's what you're after then more power to you. Anyone familiar with the Leisure Suit Larry series? Not just the recent Vivendi premature discharges, but the "real" games put out by Sierra and Al Lowe? Good times, good times.

---

I'm digressing into the absurd. I'll end it here.

Modifié par Baelin Firestorm, 21 octobre 2009 - 07:50 .

[Jab0r]

Like I said, you need a blog with this sort of conten. Your posts in this topic deserve better than to sink to the bottom of the forum index and be forgotten.

[Inhuman one]

Nudity can be overdone and inappropriate, but at some occasions its only logical.



Personly I cant stand it in many movies that when a couple has slept with each other that the woman feels the need to cover her chest with a blanket or sheets in the morning. Why would she do that after she spend the night with that guy? It doesnt make sense here.



On the other hand, in Zwartboek there is a lot of unneeded nudity like everyone walking into the bathroom naked during the night.



But there are some occasions that I really think a more adult enviroment can add to the atmosphere.



Like some slums in a city where you see drunks waggling over the streets or laying passed out in an alley, corrupt guards accepting bribes, both attractive and unattractive prostitutes trying to draw the attention of any man that looks like he has some money, etc. You could even see some sailor kiss and grope a prostitute before they move off into a building. All of it would add to the atmosphere of you walking in the slums, a lawless place thats a paradise for pirates, thieves and other low lifes.

[Arttis]

so much i want to comment on but cant remember exactly what you said and im tired of rereading.

the only short one i could remember clear enough to respond to is the blood and guts.I think that letting them see the real result of those kinds of actions but i think for some it will have the child get used to it.Also remember as much as children act the same they are different depending on how they are raised and whats in their life so they may act the way you think or the way i think.

I do agree that it is better to let them see it though.

some of the other things i have small bits to argue about but im getting tired now

im gonna say i agree with you 85%