161 réponses à ce sujet

[greatestjourney]

Also I would like to see your child psychology credentials - give me two sources that say dads staying home for their kids is unnatural and messes up his children.

[Arttis]

How about not letting your kid watch any movies or play any games....will the child turn out any better?Depends on the parent...

[grregg]

@Whist Darkblade

All right, I'll bite.

Can you please elaborate? "it is UNNATURAL" conveys quite a bit of emotion, but a minimal amount of actual information. Can you explain why father staying at home is unnatural?

And while you're at it, please tell me why you conflate "natural" with "good" and "unnatural" with "bad"? As far as I can tell, death from appendicitis is perfectly natural and I'd hestiate to call it "good"

Modifié par grregg, 21 octobre 2009 - 07:14 .

[SheffSteel]

Please, let's just walk on by this whole "What I do not like = unnatural" fallacy and try to stay on topic.

[Luekas]

Psychology research? Please, that research is not worth the paper it's printed on. Get an MD or a degree in social work and then we can talk about the effects of violence on young children. I have seen some pretty physically and emotionally scarred children, but I have never met one who was physically or emotionally abused by movies or video games.

[SchaerMann30]

All right. I think we need to take a step back and look at this. This topic, I believe, was intended for the *mature* discussion of the facets of this game that Bioware has done such a marvelous job of bringing to their adult audience, and to thank them for such a wonderful thing. From what I've seen, this discussion has evolved from appreciation of the mature themes, intended for mature audiences, through certain gripes about the logical and consistent intelligence and thought of a mature, brilliant mind (great, well-reasoned, incredibly intelligent responses, BTW, and kudos to Baelin for them; they brought a measure of sanity and fresh air to my day of reading), on through the various aspects of the sexual nature of humanity, and on into darker topics which are natural to discuss.

This mindless, spurious in-fighting which is the most recent evolution of this discussion, however, is driving me absolutely mad. Let's all take a breath, agree that there are inevitably points on which we disagree and will never be expected to change our minds upon... and please, PLEASE get back onto the topic at hand.

I dislike griping, but while discussion is well and good, fighting verbally amongst ourselves over the nature of the human soul and whether our children, or grandchildren, or siblings, or nephews... the list goes on; suffice to say that wading through four pages of people bad-mouthing each others' viewpoints and demeaning ourselves and those around us with this drivel should cease and desist for the sake of us all.

Please show some respect for each other, and if we're to keep discussing these rather sensitive issues without a mod coming in here and shutting us down, let's try to at least make the attempt to be civil.

Thank you. I now return you to your regularly-scheduled discussion.

[KmAI]

Whist Darkblade wrote...

Words words words

Is this some kind of trolling attempt? What was it you were saying regarding the topic of adult content? That its for adults? Damaging to children?

I'm confused. What does your mysogynistic rant have to do with the forum topic.
Also regarding the "natural" family heirarchy. Slavery is also a thing of your great grandpappy. And religiously and culturally condoned rape also ranks up there in the "good old days".

PS : You're 20. Thus could not have even completed even a college course on psychology. You have not done extensive squat. If I am incorrect, please provide a link to the scientific journal in which your extensive research and 25 pages of typing has been published in.

[Arttis]

Hey hey hey i was that child who played violent video games and movies...i got emotionally scarred from something entirely different...if anything it has helped soothe my dark side...

[Hex of Hell]

Whist Darkblade wrote...

Well, to start off with. It is just plain unnatural for a man to stay home and raise the kids.

Nope. Despite what Conservapedia may have taught you, there is nothing natural or unnatural about either parent choosing to nurture their children. It is merely a matter of cultural norms. There are cultures where it is considered natural for the men to care for the children and be more outwardly emotional, while the women hunt and have little to do with the children whatsoever. There is nothing biological, or natural, about it. But don't believe me, believe my 2 degrees in Anthropology.

Whist Darkblade wrote...

Now, ive wrote 3 25+ page research papers, detialing the psychological effects of violence and sex on young children (19 and under).

Could you please provide a link or reference to these numerous, peer reviewed periodicals to which you have contributed? I would be very interested in reading them. Or are these simply high school projects?


On a personal note, I truly enjoy the Mature aspect of video games. The main issue with people gettting all up in arms about the issue is usually due to the misconception that games are "toys" and made for children. Were that true, it would be easy to be upset at tattas and hineys showing up in a child's toy. That's just gross. But video games are a form of artistic expression, and as such can appeal to a wide variety of audiences and contain a wide variety of subject matter. Some of it may be tittilating or disturbing, but I feel this only enhances its power to connect with the audience and tell compelling stories with rich worlds that really make you think of the world around you in different ways.
In summary... Go Hineys!

[AClockworkMelon]

Don't listen to them Darkblade. They're full of liberal bias.

Please don't be racist.

[Inhuman one]

well games are given an age rating for a reason. If its for adults children shouldnt touch it. If children play Dragon Age the parents are to blame and not Bioware.



If someone is beaten to death with a baseball bat you cant blame the company that made the baseball bat either. Its not meant for killing, just like Dragon Age isnt meant for children.



Cant complain to beer breweries about minors drinking beer either.



Personly I like the bloody approach of Dragon Age, it suits the more grim and realistic theme. Reminds me a bit of the Witcher.

[elijah_kaine]

I think it's perfectly natural for a dad to be a stay at home dad. It doesn't happen often or in many cultures but it can happen. In a culture it could be seen as bad and be considered unnatural, but at most that would just cause some embarrassment for the family in question, it wouldn't have a pivotal effect on the morality or life-style choices of the children IMO.



As far as the whole children bit of this goes. Parents have to be responsible. There's no way around this. It doesn't matter if you sit with child in question and go "you know this is all pretend right? This doesn't happen this way in real life..." blah, blah blah. Someone said something about their kid going next door and playing GTA4 or something, well I got to say, if you really don't want him playing its your responsibility to go next door be rude and tell the parent you don't want him playing while he's there. Otherwise explain the implications of it to them.



I don't believe that games really have a bad effect on kids to any large extreme. The terrible fact is that sometimes the human mind is damaged for whatever reason and all it needs is an excuse. GTA is that excuse sometimes, so is WoW an excuse for killing yourself, some people are just messed up and had they been born 400years earlier they would be just as messed up. Doesn't matter if that's due to some kind of genetic condition or if its due to some kind of child abuse.



The whole sexism men are pigs things I whole heartily disagree with. I don't react well to rape/needless nudity in a game or movie from any perspective, I usually react badly to those things. However I think that some people are right that in modern culture( especially here in the U.S.) we react more to either women or children being victimized more strongly then if a man were victimized. It's a tool used to get a rise out of the reader/listener/audience/player. Women aren't better then men, stronger or faster. Men aren't better, stronger or faster then women. We do have different perspectives based on how are culture teaches us to behave.



--------------



Enough of all that. As far as Bio-ware goes. I put a lot of faith in them as a developer to be tasteful when it comes to mature things. If Bio-ware gave me the option to partake in "rape" activity then I wouldn't play there games anymore, they would loose my support. Even if we are going to get more mature in games as games evolve it's important for developers to continue to make sure everything they are doing is done tastefully and respectfully. Bio-ware as far as I can see does this. They treat horrible things as horrible things and etc. They don't make light of the decisions you make which is why I have no problem with them developing a mature themed game.



Besides I think when you get into a mature themed subject matter and you don't treat it with respect (ala fallout 1 & 2 child-killins.) people don't take the subject matter seriously and don't see it as something serious. The treat it like grand theft auto and just go willy nilly slaughter everything in sight (Which is kind of fun IMO). The thing is though, when you give that less serious approach to a subject like the above then you loose the ability to emotionally connect with the player on the subject.



So I'm glad that bio-ware is getting into mature things and I think they are the company to do this because they will have the ability to treat things with a lot of respect. I don't think that fallout 3 did, I don't think that Grand Theft Auto does. I would like to see serious consequences to being evil in a game.

[TuringPoint]

I don't think ratings help all that much. It makes people think the issue is simpler than it really is; that seeing blood is bad or seeing a boob is bad, without paying attention to the real social issues. Part of this is not wanting to get into confrontations; and we create something completely superficial that everyone can agree on to make us feel better.

Not that it would be better to not even bother, but why don't people just deal with life as it is and try to make it better for each other?

Most people just don't want to be bothered.

Modifié par Alocormin, 21 octobre 2009 - 08:23 .

[Arttis]

Yes we need more nude beaches in America...

[AClockworkMelon]

Not only do ratings not help, the ones we have are inaccurate.

Working at [video game store], I still remember parents not letting their 17 year old kids play this pool game for the PSP because it was rated mature. Why was it rated mature? Because all the players in the game were women in bikinis. It's kindof ridiculous.

I can STILL remember reading off the backs of the video games to parents, as I was required.

"Ma'am, as part of [video game store]'s policy I'm required to tell you that this game is rated M for Mature for blood and gore, graphic violence, strong language, drug and alcohol use..."

Meanwhile, she's just waving me along, impatient and uninterested in all these (supposedly, it's arguable) horrible things that's contained in the game she's about to purchase for her child.

"... and sexual content and partial nudity."

At this point, the parent would flip out.

So pretending to cut someone brutally in half with a chainsaw is OK but seeing a woman dancing around in a revealing outfit isn't?

Of course, I'm on the side that thinks both are OK, but whatever. The situation just makes me laugh.

[KmAI]

Only issue I find with the rating system is how do they define "Partial Nudity" Vs "Nudity" As grand theft auto 4 is partial nudity, despite the fact that mr stubbs is fully animated complete for bouncing and sagging (though occasionally his wang will clip through his pelvis) and yet godfather 2 is nudity

[Arttis]

It really depends on the parent...

[AClockworkMelon]

KmAI wrote...

Only issue I find with the rating system is how do they define "Partial Nudity" Vs "Nudity" As grand theft auto 4 is partial nudity, despite the fact that mr stubbs is fully animated complete for bouncing and sagging (though occasionally his wang will clip through his pelvis) and yet godfather 2 is nudity

Partial Nudity is described as "Brief and mild depictions of nudity." This means revealing clothing, sexually suggestive poses and behavior, etc.

Nudity is described as "Graphic, prolonged depictions of nudity." This means an actual nipple is shown, for any given amount of time. It CAN mean genitals, but only very briefly, a la GTA IV's expansion, and typically only in a comical setting.

Non-animated, full frontal female nudity in any context is going to get an A rating.

One of the problems (not THE problem, THE problem would be the rating board's existence in the first place) with the rating boards is their lack of consistency, as KmAl touched point with.

[TuringPoint]

It really depends on a whole lot of factors.

[AClockworkMelon]

Yeah, and none of them are consistent or reasonable.

[Arttis]

They are doing the best job they can.

[AClockworkMelon]

Lmao.

[Jab0r]

Personally, I think the existence of a ratings board for games is, in theory, a good thing.

The problem is that unlike, say, movies, game ratings are pretty much ignored by the very same people that complain about games adversely affecting their children.

[Whist Darkblade]

WOAHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!! Everybody needs to relax and realize that everyone has their own opinion!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Sylvius the Mad]

Parents ignore movie ratings, too. Just as many of them assume "games are for kids" and then buy their kid Manhunt only to be shocked and appalled by the content, there have been a bunch of recent complaints from parents who took their kids to see [ik]Where The Wild Things Are[/i], only to find that it either frightened or bored their young children. Newsflash - the movie got a PG rating in the US. But just because it was based on a book aimed at young children people assumed (contrary to the rating) that the movie was too.

People are dumb.

As more and more games are available online rather than in retail stores, the ESERB rating system will become less and less important as there will be less need to subject your game to their review. There are a lot more Adult games in the world than the ones the ESRB rated AO.

Baelin Firestorm wrote...

Anyone remember the Timex Sinclair?

Of course. 1 kB of RAM - that wasn't really enough even then.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 21 octobre 2009 - 09:40 .