76 réponses à ce sujet

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
Hopefully you do see how much like wishful thinking and special pleading that appears.  The sort of justification a man sitting in a Nuremberg trial might make, because he never actually got his hands bloody.

No, not really.

You have the Arl of Amaranthine (one of the richest arlings), that took over Highever with little effort, essentially controlling them both. And you have Loghain going into a civil war and who needs as much allies as possible. Howe, being in his position, would be a very powerful ally. Making an enemy out of him would have been stupid.
 

Making an enemy out of Eamon was really stupid, too.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
Making an enemy out of Eamon was really stupid, too.

But incapacitating him, while only you possess the cure, is not that stupid.

If we are to be honest, the stupid thing is allowing Eamon to live to be an enemy in the first place. The poison should have been lethal and immediate.

[Astranagant]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
Making an enemy out of Eamon was really stupid, too.

But incapacitating him, while only you possess the cure, is not that stupid.

If we are to be honest, the stupid thing is allowing Eamon to live to be an enemy in the first place. The poison should have been lethal and immediate.

It's stupid to assassinate powerful nobles who have old and strong ties to the other nobles of Ferelden when you're a commoner with no legitimate claim to the throne, no tact or political skill and a heavy-handed manner that characters in-game compare to that of the Orlesians.

Of course, that's all irrelevant because if Loghain really did assassinate Eamon, the Landsmeet wouldn't have been called, Ferelden would probably have fallen to the blight and Loghain would have died along with Ferelden at the feet of the unkillable Archdemon.

Modifié par Astranagant, 06 juin 2010 - 05:22 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Hanz54321 wrote...
1) Nowhere in the game does it say that the poison was not meant to kill Eamon. It's impossible not to think Eamon was meant to die.

The Demon said she and only she is keeping Eamon alive and that killing her would result in Eamon's death. The demon was destroyed and Eamon yet lives.

Two possibilities:
A- either the demon somehow "stabilised" Eamon's condition. Which is very vague.
B- The demon was lying and Eamon was not dying in the first place. She used Connor's fear of his father dying to get to him.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Hanz54321 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The Demon said she and only she is keeping Eamon alive and that killing her would result in Eamon's death. The demon was destroyed and Eamon yet lives.

Two possibilities:
A- either the demon somehow "stabilised" Eamon's condition. Which is very vague.
B- The demon was lying and Eamon was not dying in the first place. She used Connor's fear of his father dying to get to him.

Third possibilty - Jowan screwed up the dose.
 
Fourth possibility - Eamon was stronger than most.  How many times are people accidentally poisoned and the doctor tells the family, "Normally that much heroine/alcohol/cocaine would kill someone but somehow your family member pulled through."  I have a friend who is an ER doctor.  He says you'd be suprised the crap people survive.

Well at least we've agreed that there are various possibilities, I presume you see mine as valid.

Because I thought the in-game explanation (demon stabilised him) to be very banal. Then again, mostly all of Redcliff was just banal.

But yes, in-game we are led to believe that Loghain sought to kill Eamon, which he doesn't contradict. David Gaider on the otherhand said Loghain did not want to kill him. I'll take that as canon. Not that it's really relevent anyhow.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
Making an enemy out of Eamon was really stupid, too.

But incapacitating him, while only you possess the cure, is not that stupid.

If we are to be honest, the stupid thing is allowing Eamon to live to be an enemy in the first place. The poison should have been lethal and immediate.

So making an enemy of Howe is shrewd and making an enemy of the Guerrins, one of the most important families in Ferelden, is not?  How do you figure?  Because Howe is a bootlicker with zero integrity who will do Loghain's dirty work and serve as convenient patsy when Loghain is finished with him.  That is the difference, and it all goes to the fact that Loghain is complicit in Howe's crimes.  He is more than complicit.  He is one of two people, other than Anora, who could have put a stop to them, and instead he sanctioned the man and profited from his depravity.

[phaonica]

Addai67 wrote...

So making an enemy of Howe is shrewd and making an enemy of the Guerrins, one of the most important families in Ferelden, is not?  How do you figure?  Because Howe is a bootlicker with zero integrity who will do Loghain's dirty work and serve as convenient patsy when Loghain is finished with him.  That is the difference, and it all goes to the fact that Loghain is complicit in Howe's crimes.  He is more than complicit.  He is one of two people, other than Anora, who could have put a stop to them, and instead he sanctioned the man and profited from his depravity.

Is this situation any better or worse than a Warden who sides with Bhelen, who easily comes off as a power-hungry murderer, but is a more effective ally?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
So making an enemy of Howe is shrewd and making an enemy of the Guerrins, one of the most important families in Ferelden, is not?  How do you figure?  Because Howe is a bootlicker with zero integrity who will do Loghain's dirty work and serve as convenient patsy when Loghain is finished with him.  That is the difference, and it all goes to the fact that Loghain is complicit in Howe's crimes.  He is more than complicit.  He is one of two people, other than Anora, who could have put a stop to them, and instead he sanctioned the man and profited from his depravity.

Loghain knew that Eamon would not have sided with him, nor would he have accepted a non-Therein on the throne, in addition to being too pro-Orlais. So Eamon was an enemy by default. Howe was not.
 
And yes, because Howe is a bootlicker and a good one at that. But he is also a powerful bootlicker who knows how to make himself seem necessary. Him controlling Amaranthine, and then Highever and then Denerim, shows this. Eamon on the otherhand was not useful to Loghain, as he would have opposed him. Incapacitating him removed his threat (killing him would have removed it permanently).

I am not saying you are wrong. You can see Loghain as complicit. I do not, for the reasons explained now and before. I see Loghain making an enemy out of Howe who has no reason to be an enemy, to be a very unwise move. At least with the present crisis.

 

[Costin_Razvan]

It is important to remember that Loghain did not "award" Howe any tittles. The Snake claimed them for himself by killing the Couslands in Highever and by claiming control of Denerim from Vaughn. Loghain merely did not take those titles from him.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

It is important to remember that Loghain did not "award" Howe any tittles. The Snake claimed them for himself by killing the Couslands in Highever and by claiming control of Denerim from Vaughn. Loghain merely did not take those titles from him.

Loghain did give him the stamp, so to speak. He did introduce Howe as the Teyrn of Highever.

But yes, Loghain did not give Howe Highever, nor do I think he gave him Denerim (I don't think Loghain even knew that Vaughan was still alive). He simply stamped on what Howe already took for himself without resorting to Loghain. In otherwords, Loghain only formally recognised Howe's titles that he already had without him.
 
Some people might still think that makes Loghain an accomplice though.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

It is important to remember that Loghain did not "award" Howe any tittles. The Snake claimed them for himself by killing the Couslands in Highever and by claiming control of Denerim from Vaughn. Loghain merely did not take those titles from him.

Loghain did give him the stamp, so to speak. He did introduce Howe as the Teyrn of Highever.

But yes, Loghain did not give Howe Highever, nor do I think he gave him Denerim (I don't think Loghain even knew that Vaughan was still alive). He simply stamped on what Howe already took for himself without resorting to Loghain. In otherwords, Loghain only formally recognised Howe's titles that he already had without him.
 
Some people might still think that makes Loghain an accomplice though.

How is it that people can simply claim noble titles in Ferelden and the regent, the highest office in the land, has no say in it?  Who confers titles but the crown?

Honestly, if I was a Loghain fan, I would rather admit that he's complicit in Howe's acts than paint this Keystone Kops picture of his regency that you do above.

[Kryyptehk]

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

It is important to remember that Loghain did not "award" Howe any tittles. The Snake claimed them for himself by killing the Couslands in Highever and by claiming control of Denerim from Vaughn. Loghain merely did not take those titles from him.

Loghain did give him the stamp, so to speak. He did introduce Howe as the Teyrn of Highever.

But yes, Loghain did not give Howe Highever, nor do I think he gave him Denerim (I don't think Loghain even knew that Vaughan was still alive). He simply stamped on what Howe already took for himself without resorting to Loghain. In otherwords, Loghain only formally recognised Howe's titles that he already had without him.
 
Some people might still think that makes Loghain an accomplice though.

How is it that people can simply claim noble titles in Ferelden and the regent, the highest office in the land, has no say in it?  Who confers titles but the crown?

Honestly, if I was a Loghain fan, I would rather admit that he's complicit in Howe's acts than paint this Keystone Kops picture of his regency that you do above.

No, regents can't have any power, because then something would actually be Loghain's fault. Pfft, we all know that isn't true.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I am not saying you are wrong. You can see Loghain as complicit. I do not, for the reasons explained now and before. I see Loghain making an enemy out of Howe who has no reason to be an enemy, to be a very unwise move. At least with the present crisis.

 

Even if all you say is true, all Loghain had to do was pat Howe on the back and go his way.  He did not need to have him following him around Denerim like a lapdog, arranging his affairs, bringing reports, basically acting as chancellor and footman.  If Howe is so all-powerful, why is he the one cringing when Loghain is roaring about Orlesians?  Why does he need Loghain's say-so to send Zevran out?

[Costin_Razvan]

Because Howe is trying to make it seem like he is actually following Loghain's wishes?

[Vicious]

The toolset specifically lists it as them. [or their heads, specifically]

My guess as to why it is not referred to is that it is leftover from the unfinished version when you could do Denerim in the beginning of the game [as Morrigan suggests] and immediately replace Alistair with Loghain, if you wish.


Obviously that did not make the final cut, but the proof is there - Loghain has segments of his own dream sequence in the Circle Tower, for instance.

Modifié par Vicious, 06 juin 2010 - 06:41 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
How is it that people can simply claim noble titles in Ferelden and the regent, the highest office in the land, has no say in it?  Who confers titles but the crown?

A- Howe was already the Arl of Amaranthine, one of the richest Arlings.

B- Howe took Highever with ease and it was already his. Loghain saying no to him, would mean that Loghain had to fight Amaranthine and Highever.

C- Howe disposed of Vaughan and claimed that Vaughan was dead.

You are confusing title with actual power. Yes, Loghain gave him those titles formally, only because Howe already had the power of each position already. Loghain saying no to him, would have created a very powerful enemy. Especially considering that Howe has no reason to be Loghains' enemy.

In addition, Ferelden is not a top down monarchy like you seem to think, where the Regent or Crown just chooses who goes where. Titles are strongly held in the hands of the nobility. Howe managed to take a few for his own, before recieving the stamp.
  

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I am not saying you are wrong. You can see Loghain as complicit. I do not, for the reasons explained now and before. I see Loghain making an enemy out of Howe who has no reason to be an enemy, to be a very unwise move. At least with the present crisis.

 

Even if all you say is true, all Loghain had to do was pat Howe on the back and go his way.  He did not need to have him following him around Denerim like a lapdog, arranging his affairs, bringing reports, basically acting as chancellor and footman.  If Howe is so all-powerful, why is he the one cringing when Loghain is roaring about Orlesians?  Why does he need Loghain's say-so to send Zevran out?

Because Howe demosntrated skill and loyalty / bootlicking. Why wouldn't he be in Denerim?

And I will remind you that Howe brought Zevran without Loghain's say so and only waited for the validation of a plan he already had in mind.

I am nto saying that Loghain was powerless, he was still the regent. But Howe's power could not be denied by anyone, least of all Loghain.

[Costin_Razvan]

Obviously that did not make the final cut, but the proof is there - Loghain has segments of his own dream sequence in the Circle Tower, for instance.

Oh? Where do you find that in the toolset?

[phaonica]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Obviously that did not make the final cut, but the proof is there - Loghain has segments of his own dream sequence in the Circle Tower, for instance.

Oh? Where do you find that in the toolset?

I think it's under "characters". You can find maric and kidcailan there, and they are listed as being part of the fade nightmares.

[KnightofPhoenix]

phaonica wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Obviously that did not make the final cut, but the proof is there - Loghain has segments of his own dream sequence in the Circle Tower, for instance.

Oh? Where do you find that in the toolset?

I think it's under "characters". You can find maric and kidcailan there, and they are listed as being part of the fade nightmares.

Yes, that's what I would think Loghain's nightmare would be. Him coming to face with his friend Maric.

Damn, I wish they didn't cut this. I would have loved to see Loghain's reactions to our choices throughout the game.