965 réponses à ce sujet

[thegreateski]

I believe that you would get more of a discussion in the Alistair thread.



I also believe that a person's upbringing is not an excuse for the way they act.

[Astranagant]

Err, Alistair was coddled by Eamon for something like 10 years before he was shipped off to the Chantry, not thrown in a stable or whatever.

And I don't think anyone's going to argue that Alistair isn't immature and childish when push comes to shove, but if you harden him you can get him to marry Anora after sparing Loghain, though he'll still leave your party. He'll admit that it was the best choice from a reasonable or political standpoint after having time to cool off.

Modifié par Astranagant, 06 juin 2010 - 05:16 .

[BigBad]

This has already been discussed in a bunch of threads, including these two active ones:



http://social.biowar...7/index/2202899

http://social.biowar...6/index/2769303



Not to mention that it comes up every few pages in all the active Loghain discussion threads. Basically, it boils down to a line drawn in the sand, where everyone has already picked their side and aren't gonna change their minds.

[KnightofPhoenix]

The thing about black and white, is that you don't really have a serious argument for yourself being "white" (morally speaking), if you decide to just leave your country and your people to die like that. I mean I can understand some people thinking that their idea of "justice" is paramount to anything, even the lives of thousands, but Alistair never struck me as this kind of person.

"Childlike" might be too strong a word. But I agree that he was depraved of a normal life and childhood. Then again, so have all other companions or most of them, so we can't always use that as justification.

But to answer your question. No, his decision to leave and abandon the fight did not really surprise me, though it did dissapoint me. And while I can understand his hatred towards Loghain, I can't understand that hatred leading him to forsake Duncan's memory by turning his back on the blight. that's my biggest problem with the issue. That he just leaves. And I personally can't allow him to do that.

[Weiser_Cain]

Alistair Should have been like this.



See that guy looks capable, like he's been raised to kill mages, and not some too modern douchebag.

[Sarah1281]

On many threads there are a good portion of posters who blame Alistair for essentially being an immature brat and think that it's Alistair's own fault that he either becomes a drunk wanderer, gets beheaded, or is a buttface for getting mad when he has to marry Anora. That his reaction to recruiting . . . that other guy . . . is just unacceptable.

Is Alistair getting executed his fault? Not really. Eamon forced him up as a candidate and convinced him it was the only way to get Ferelden behind the Wardens. You're the one who didn't make him King or try to stop Anora.



Is him getting upset about marrying Anora unreasonable? No. He doesn't like her at this point and either loves you or has never been in love and never entertained the possibility of a political marriage.



Is him wandering off to become a drunk after getting exiled his fault? Absolutely. He shouldn't have thrown his life away like that just because he was disillusioned with Ferelden.

[phaonica]

I wasn't disappointed in his outburst. I was disappointed that he *didn't come back*. After dealing with Branka, the Orzammar civil war, and Zathrien, to name a few, you'd think his world of black and white would be greyed a little. You would think he would trust me a little more. Not only that but he was completely insubordinate towards me in front of the *Landsmeet*.

Modifié par phaonica, 06 juin 2010 - 05:33 .

[asaiasai]

For both Allistair and Morrigan they both will try and extort something from the warden using, friendship in Allistair's case and manipulation in Morrigan's case. Both of these characters betray the trust the PC has in them and in the end force the PC into a them or me situation, which means they were never your friends in the first place. They if they do not get what they want from the PC they throw a tantrum and leave just when the warden needs them the most, hence betrayal. They are incapiable of placing the needs of others before thier petty desires as such is the case i just keep Allistair around until it is dragon feeding time either Anora or the AD. In the case of Morrigan i just boot her from the party at Lotharin, the benefit of this game play style is A) no Morrigan, and i feed either Loghain or Allistair to the AD and my warden moves on.

Many will argue from an emotionally sentemental stand point that i am the one who betrays Allistair by allowing Loghain to live. I am just following the suggestion of the SENIOR warden Rihordan (spelling) who tells you and everyone in the landsmeet there are compelling reasons to keep Loghain alive. Later at Redcliffe Keep he drops the final bomb and this explains his reasoning and rational for keeping Loghain alive. Defeating the blight is a MUST win. In order for that to happen a warden MUST make slay the AD, there is no other solution, so having 4 wardesn to fight the AD is better than 3.

It is some what meta gaming but the betrayal of these 2 characters is so large, that no matter how hard i try to forget it i can not, so rather than be disappointed at the end, FORCED into a course of action i feel will be more detrimental (demon baby), rely on a person of wavering conviction or petty revenge seeking, i just remove or ignore both of these characters and stick with my true friends, the ones who will make no demands, who understand loosing is not an option, who will be there in the end when i need them the most, who are able to place themselves second for the protectiont of others, the real heros and thier names are, Loghain, Leliana, Wynne, Sten, Shale, Dog, Zeveran, and Oghren.

Asai

Modifié par asaiasai, 06 juin 2010 - 05:44 .

[Addai]

Alistair's outburst in the Landsmeet when his triggers are pushed are no more childish or emotional than Anora's when hers are pushed, or Loghain's tirade about how no one had spilled blood as he had. The Mary Sue PC syndrome has convinced some that Alistair is an emo wimp and affects people's view of his actions in the Landsmeet.

[Astranagant]

The problem I have with Alistair's reaction after the duel is that he's flat out abandoning his duty and betraying the oath he made to Duncan and the Wardens.

Hanz54321 wrote...

thegreateski wrote...

I believe that you would get more of a discussion in the Alistair thread.

I also believe that a person's upbringing is not an excuse for the way they act.

You know nothing about human development then.  You really think you'd be the same person you are today if you had been taught different values, if you had been born in poverty instead of middle class, or if you had been born rich instead of poor (I don't know your background).  Or say you'd been permanently disabled.  You don't think you would see the world differently?

That's a fools point of view as black and white as Alistair's views on right and wrong.

Who we are is mostly luck.  Where we were born and raised (societal influences) and who we were born too (parent education and genetics).

Actually, modern science has found that a significant amount of who you are is genetic.

They've done studies, for example, on identical twins who were seperated at birth and raised by different families, and a startlingly large number of them pursued nearly identical paths in life. One of the most famous examples is a pair of seperated twins who both became firefighters, both married women with a specific appearance, both had extremely similar personality and mannerisms, etc., despite being raised by very different families and under very different circumstances.

If you take a course in Psychology (as a physical/biological science,) you'll hear a lot about it in the Nature/Nurture debate.

Modifié par Astranagant, 06 juin 2010 - 05:44 .

[Sarah1281]

Addai67 wrote...

Alistair's outburst in the Landsmeet when his triggers are pushed are no more childish or emotional than Anora's when hers are pushed, or Loghain's tirade about how no one had spilled blood as he had. The Mary Sue PC syndrome has convinced some that Alistair is an emo wimp and affects people's view of his actions in the Landsmeet.

Loghain's little outburst if he loses wasn't one of his better moments I'll admit but I don't really feel it was childish. Perhaps that was because of the darkness of the subject matter? Not to mention that he thinks you and Alistair are just like Cailan and are being manipulated by Eamon so he honestly thinks you're going to doom Ferelden. He's wrong but that's not a childish concern. 

Anora demands one thing and one thing only: the throne. She may promise support regardless and some might call her a **** for not following through on that but she'll do whatever it takes to try and get it. She feels she is the best for Ferelden and has five years of doing what she and many people (who, keep in mind, also don't care about the elves) feel is a good job so it's not like she has no evidence to back up her claim. Betraying you at the Landsmeet isn't nice but it's hardly childish. Refusing to swear fealty to an untested King who only is on the throne because of a father who never acknowledged him and because you and Eamon like him more than her might be considered childish, I suppose.

Alistair walks away and leaves Ferelden to its fate if you neglect to kill one man. He's really willing to doom the entire country for one man. Yes, I do happen to find that childish to say the least. In fact, that's probably the most positive description I can come up with for that kind of behavior.

I really don't get why you insist on taking any and all forms of criticism of Alistair and turn it into 'oh, they must have a Mary Sue PC who demands that everyone fall into line with them'. How is running away and refusing to stand against the Blight which is his sworn duty as one of three (because he leaves before Loghain even survives the Joining) GW in Ferelden over a personal matter in any way justified? 

If he wants to hate me for sparing Loghain, never speak to me again, pretend that he's never been to Ferelden, go become a wandering drunk, go travelling, publicly denounce me, whatever AFTER he does his goddamn duty then that's fine. He can do that and that's perfectly understandable. Before, however? Let's just say that he wasn't the only one to become disillusioned at the Landsmeet.

[phaonica]

Addai67 wrote...

Alistair's outburst in the Landsmeet when his triggers are pushed are no more childish or emotional than Anora's when hers are pushed, or Loghain's tirade about how no one had spilled blood as he had.

You are right. They all throw a fit when they don't get their way. I don't blame any of them, really, for their outbursts. But I expected more from Alistair, in that I expected him to trust me, and to come back. (the game doesn't let me look for him, or I would have tried)

Modifié par phaonica, 06 juin 2010 - 06:05 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

phaonica wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Alistair's outburst in the Landsmeet when his triggers are pushed are no more childish or emotional than Anora's when hers are pushed, or Loghain's tirade about how no one had spilled blood as he had.

You are right. They all throw a fit when they don't get their way. I don't blame any of them, really, for their outbursts. But I expected more from Alistair, in that I expected him to trust me, and to come back.

Except Loghain and Anora did not abandon their people, nor did they turn their backs to the fight in the process.

[phaonica]

Hanz54321 wrote...

Morrigan fails to see that the Tevinter Dragons were put to prison for a reason. Bringing the soul of one back is just asking for the same trouble the Tevinter Magi got when the Dragons taught them how to get into the Black City in the first place. This kid is going to be Mr. Staypuffed and I will have no part of it. I tell her I love her but she chooses to leave anyway. Not my fault we broke up.

I'd honestly never thought about Morrigan's leaving if you refuse the DR, but I can definitely see how that would be a great betrayal if you've romanced her. Since I haven't, yet ... well, I never had any illusions that she was in it for herself, and while our goals were the same, so much the better. I actually haven't refused the DR yet, but I can definitly see how I would be angry that my friend would leave like that.

[Addai]

Sarah1281 wrote...
 Loghain's little outburst if he loses wasn't one of his better moments I'll admit but I don't really feel it was childish. Perhaps that was because of the darkness of the subject matter? Not to mention that he thinks you and Alistair are just like Cailan and are being manipulated by Eamon so he honestly thinks you're going to doom Ferelden. He's wrong but that's not a childish concern.

Neither are Alistair's concerns that a) you are letting the man who destroyed Ferelden's Grey Wardens and outlawed them become one, asking for a knife in the back, and c) that justice is not being done.  I would add that you are likely dooming the country to continued civil war and that the decision is an irrational one after you just got done proving Loghain's a criminal and traitor.  He sees you acting completely counter to what not only a Grey Warden, but a person of character, should be doing.  I realize others do not see it that way, though I happen to agree with Alistair.

Refusing to swear fealty to an untested King who only is on the throne because of a father who never acknowledged him and because you and Eamon like him more than her might be considered childish, I suppose.

Not only childish, but stupid and irresponsible.  Regardless of her feelings about Alistair, when the LM decides for him, her duty is to suck it up and bend the knee.  Otherwise she is fomenting continued civil war in a time of Blight and hence playing with the destruction of her country.  Her personal feelings get in the way every bit as much as Alistair's do, and the potential consequences are greater.  He only leaves when he thinks you are going to have Loghain as his replacement anyway.  That's not dooming the country.

I really don't get why you insist on taking any and all forms of criticism of Alistair and turn it into 'oh, they must have a Mary Sue PC who demands that everyone fall into line with them'. How is running away and refusing to stand against the Blight which is his sworn duty as one of three (because he leaves before Loghain even survives the Joining) GW in Ferelden over a personal matter in any way justified?

Because it is not only over a personal matter.  See above.

As far as Loghain's speech, it's not only childish, it is an affront to others in the gallery like Bryland who fought in the rebellion with him.  He is desperate, of course, and wants to make one last appeal to the Hero of River Dane, but that is a legacy he himself destroyed.

The Mary Sue syndrome comes into play when people do not see that Alistair has valid points, or that his issue with Duncan is no more irrational than the other outbursts at the Landsmeet, all with great things at stake.  People get so used to seeing Alistair as the easy-going sidekick that they do not fairly consider the points he makes.  Often you hear that he makes no points at all, and as you're arguing, that his issues are completely personal.

Modifié par Addai67, 06 juin 2010 - 06:14 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Some might claim that Alistair, technically, has no loyalty to Ferelden, nor has he any loyalty to the PC or the army he is leading..etc etc. So he isn't doing anythign wrong by abandoning Ferelden and its people. But I only wonder why Alistair so strongly refused the idea of leaving Ferelden and going with the Orlesians at the very beginning?

It makes the counter argument look weak. Either Alistair's hatred just clouded him completely from the fact he did not want to abandon Ferelden, at that very moment. Or, and that is more sinister, Alistair never cared about Ferelden and its people in the first place and he only wanted to stay in order to kill Loghain, because his revenge was that important even amidst a Blight. I hope it's not the latter, because that would be a disturbing amount of lust for revenge.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 06 juin 2010 - 06:21 .

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

phaonica wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Alistair's outburst in the Landsmeet when his triggers are pushed are no more childish or emotional than Anora's when hers are pushed, or Loghain's tirade about how no one had spilled blood as he had.

You are right. They all throw a fit when they don't get their way. I don't blame any of them, really, for their outbursts. But I expected more from Alistair, in that I expected him to trust me, and to come back.

Except Loghain and Anora did not abandon their people, nor did they turn their backs to the fight in the process.

You can argue that Loghain and Anora have been abandoning their people the whole game.

I also explained above, in response to Sarah, how Anora specifically does so at the Landsmeet.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

phaonica wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Alistair's outburst in the Landsmeet when his triggers are pushed are no more childish or emotional than Anora's when hers are pushed, or Loghain's tirade about how no one had spilled blood as he had.

You are right. They all throw a fit when they don't get their way. I don't blame any of them, really, for their outbursts. But I expected more from Alistair, in that I expected him to trust me, and to come back.

Except Loghain and Anora did not abandon their people, nor did they turn their backs to the fight in the process.

You can argue that Loghain and Anora have been abandoning their people the whole game.

I also explained above, in response to Sarah, how Anora specifically does so at the Landsmeet.

We've already had that discussion Addai. I am not planing to repeat it so soon.

And no, Loghain and Anora might be seen as leading their people to ruin. But that is not abandoning. The difference may not mean much to you, but it does to me in asserting the worth of each individual.