965 réponses à ce sujet

[nos_astra]

Hanz54321 wrote...
Somebody commented that Loghain as old and washed up. If you take him into your group Morrigan comments that Loghain is much younger than she expected a legendary general to be. I believe he's not nearly as old as Duncan or Riordan - he's just rough looking because he's not of a noble blood line. That's not to say he's a spring chicken, but I got the impression Loghain was in his late 30s.!

Loghain is over 50, he is in fact older than Eamon. Anora is approaching 30.

Modifié par klarabella, 06 juin 2010 - 07:23 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

tmp7704 wrote...
Again, Loghain being part of Ferelden's internal bickering isn't exactly something for Riordan to need to pull rank over. Whether Loghain lives or dies doesn't seem to be matter of particular importance for him, and i can sympathize with that point of view. .

He knows why more Wardens are necessary, I doubt it was not of importance to him, seeing how he is the one to suggest it. And it's not Ferelden political bickering. It's him advising conscription, which supercedes all politics.

If he wanted to exercize his power, he would have conscripted him.

Furthermore, even the non-Ferelden armies vow their loyalty to you as THE Warden. Alistair was not with me on any of those Quests.

tmp7704 wrote...
I went to check that dialogue, and Riordan says he doesn't want to deprive the armies you gathered of a commander. This hardly settles it as PC being the only person in charge of the soldiers, nor does it exclude Alistair from being a commander as well. After all if PC was the only one for the armies to respond to, wouldn't Riordan instead speak of "the commander" or "their commander" instead?.

He says "a commander", after you tell him you want to go scouting with him. It's clear who he is refering to.
And no army can have two commanders at the same time. Not them being equal at least.

tmp7704 wrote...
No, since you get to command the army of Ferelden and Alistair is not part of that army. He's a Grey Warden.

He designates you as his leader, thus falls under your chain of command. That's how I see it.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 06 juin 2010 - 07:27 .

[Costin_Razvan]

I imagine Maric was around 14 when the rebellion began, and it probably lasted about 4-6 years until River Dane.

 Loghain is over 50, he is in fact older than Eamon. Anora is approaching 30.

Did he find the fountain of youth or something? He certainly looks too young for his age...especially given the stress he is constantly under.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 06 juin 2010 - 07:25 .

[Herr Uhl]

Hanz54321 wrote...

Arcturus Mensk - also a fantastic villian.

Somebody commented that Loghain as old and washed up. If you take him into your group Morrigan comments that Loghain is much younger than she expected a legendary general to be. I believe he's not nearly as old as Duncan or Riordan - he's just rough looking because he's not of a noble blood line. That's not to say he's a spring chicken, but I got the impression Loghain was in his late 30s.

Anyone who has read the books can let me know. I know he met Maric when they were still kids so they started their rebellion very young - like in Red Dawn. WOLVERINES!

He is older than Duncan, Eamon and Riordan ( not terribly sure about Riordan, but it would be same age at most Edit: for Riordan that is).

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 06 juin 2010 - 07:27 .

[Sarah1281]

Tirigon wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Mary Sue
Mary Sue Traits

Of course, I'm disinclined to believe that simply being an extremely skilled fighter with some very skilled backup makes you a Mary Sue or that Alistair putting you in charge making you in charge does.

• What personality? In these cases, it's fairly blatant the
  author is just writing the character for amazing stuff to happen to
  instead of a character that actually exists as a person. Obviously,
  this is only a Mary Sue
  trait if what happens gives the character special
  powers, fantastic romances, or somehow lets her be a big
  damned heroine; otherwise it's just another faceless
  first-person perspective.

Then that means that you aren't RP a character with an actual personality. Writing a fanfic or answering one of those character sheet questionaires helps with this but isn't required. The Warden really doesn't have any special powers besides their suicide move of killing the Archdemon that no one is even aware of until the end. There's also the 'sense darkspawn' thing but it's really not shown as all that useful as it doesn't help you deal with them at all and you're going to be able to see that they're there soon enough. You don't have to romance anybody although the big damn hero is kind of required for the protagonist in a video game it certainly does apply. So are all video game protagonists Mary Sues in your eyes just because of their medium?

If there is a personality, it's who
the author wishes they could be, never who they are. While this is a
regular feature in most original characters, Mary Sue
takes it to the extreme.

Again, it is not mandatory but depends on how your RP. If you put actual flaws into your Warden and don't make them perfect then the fact that the character is not you (which is another hallmark of a Mary Sue btw) then that will not doom them to Mary Sue-hood. You don't even have to make your Warden all that likeable or respectable.

Highly
persuasive, regardless of the actual content of their
conversations. Everyone finds her opinions are just better than their
own - even
when they're usually stubborn bastards. This is especially likely
in an Author
Tract.

Only if you take the time to put points in coercion or raise your cunning. If not, good luck convincing anyone of anything they weren't already inclined to do. And if someone does have coercion and cunning it means that they are a persuasive person and persuasive people persuading people is not really all that surprising or Mary Sue-ish.

Friend
To All Living Things. It's becoming gradually less common as
authors catch on
to the Mary
Sue classic framework.

Or you can have your entire party hate you and leave or not quite enough to desert you when there's a Blight to stop or they don't have anything better to do. And if you are rude to All Living Things then they will not like you. Also, many people are ambivalent towards you until you do them a favor in which case it's not surprising or the slightest bit unrealistic that they are more favorably inclined towards you.

Is either brave and
cheerful (despite
her past), or unnecessarily
mopey and depressed.

Depends on how your RP. You can mope about, say, just as much as Alistair does as surely whatever you went through in the origin is at least as bad as Alistair losing Duncan so I don't think that makes you unnecessarily whiney.

Incorruptible.
In fact, unaware of the possibility of temptation.

Or you can make deals with demons, kill innocents, steal blood from your companions to power your spells...this game leaves a lot of room to be corrupted. All you really HAVE to do is stop the Blight but it is in everyone's best interest including the most corrupt of Wardens. I mean, take the Darkspawn Chronicles. Howe is as corrupt as ever but because he's still alive he's trying to stop the Blight because not doing so is really, really stupid.

Occasionally a complete
****, especially when they're supposed to be all of the
above. Nobody
will call
them out on it.

You can get called out on your behavior all the time by your various companions! Many object to **** behaviors like killing the Dalish and deciding to kill all the mages and sometimes they even object just for you getting involved in what they see are pointless diversions from your job. I know Alistair, for one, freaks out about you killing Connor/Isolde which, while perhaps more practical, is kind of a dick move when there's always the Circle.

Her "major
flaws" will be stubbornness and a bad temper. These will only ever
help her, never hurt her — because she's always right, so whatever cause
she dedicates herself to with such stubbornness will be a good cause,
and whoever she loses her temper with will deserve it.

Well that, again, depends on how you RP it. I know one of my characters is overly prideful even when it doesn't benefit them to be (refusing to put on armor she has to take from a corpse and preffering to go without, for instance) , knows practically nothing about Ferelden, doesn't really care that much about the people around them, doesn't particularly value honesty, obsessed with money, doesn't have a healthy system of morality, refuses to let go of the past...

All true.

All of that is only true if you RP it that way which you apparently have been (except for the no one calling you out on your behavior which isn't even remotely true). That doesn't mean everyone else does.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 06 juin 2010 - 07:32 .

[phaonica]

Hanz54321 wrote...

Arcturus Mensk - also a fantastic villian.

Somebody commented that Loghain as old and washed up. If you take him into your group Morrigan comments that Loghain is much younger than she expected a legendary general to be. I believe he's not nearly as old as Duncan or Riordan - he's just rough looking because he's not of a noble blood line. That's not to say he's a spring chicken, but I got the impression Loghain was in his late 30s.

Anyone who has read the books can let me know. I know he met Maric when they were still kids so they started their rebellion very young - like in Red Dawn. WOLVERINES!

I think he's older than 30s. I had the impression that he's younger than Riordan because Riordan refers to himself as the eldest (and I didn't think he was talking about years spent as a warden, just years in general). I'm thinking... early 50s perhaps?

[Costin_Razvan]

Addai67 wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...



It might also have to with the fact we study similar things. I go for military history ( which deals quite a bit in politics ) while you deal with political science.

I studied medieval literature (German), so I don't have any trouble confessing to some romantic idealism. It is certainly part of Alistair's appeal to me. As I see it, as long as he can get the job done (and he does do this better with someone more pragmatic at his side, be it Anora or a PC consort or chancellor), then the fact that he is a bit naive, good-hearted and compassionate is a plus and not a minus.



As per Fiona in The Calling, when she discovers that "Maric the Savior" also happens to be a good man, she comments that Ferelden is luckier than most countries.



I would think that this is not a perspective that is singular to western culture.

Well certainly our background studies influence how we view the situation, and while I cannot speak for those in other countries, I do know for a fact that many people in mine do not look at Alistair kindly. ( Romania )

[Sarah1281]

phaonica wrote...

Hanz54321 wrote...

Arcturus Mensk - also a fantastic villian.

Somebody commented that Loghain as old and washed up. If you take him into your group Morrigan comments that Loghain is much younger than she expected a legendary general to be. I believe he's not nearly as old as Duncan or Riordan - he's just rough looking because he's not of a noble blood line. That's not to say he's a spring chicken, but I got the impression Loghain was in his late 30s.

Anyone who has read the books can let me know. I know he met Maric when they were still kids so they started their rebellion very young - like in Red Dawn. WOLVERINES!

I think he's older than 30s. I had the impression that he's younger than Riordan because Riordan refers to himself as the eldest (and I didn't think he was talking about years spent as a warden, just years in general). I'm thinking... early 50s perhaps?

The Orlesians were driven out thirty years ago so I just put Loghain at about fifty. He looks REALLY good for his age, though. You know who else in the game was fifty? King Endrin.
 


See the difference? 

Modifié par Sarah1281, 06 juin 2010 - 07:35 .

[phaonica]

Hanz54321 wrote...

OK - that is right - Anora is definitely approaching 30 per Eamon's letters. Now this being medieval styke fantasy it's possible that Loghain got his wife pregnant at age 15 or so, which could make him 45 at the youngest.

So yeah, he's probably 50.

That would make whoever said Loghain is old and washed up pretty much right.

One thing I know a lot about is hand to hand combat. In single combat 50 is over the hill when fighting an experienced fighter say, in his early 30s. The age trumps the experience there. So the argument for "strong recruits" goes against Loghain.

However . . . when entire armies are fighting this may not so much be the case. I don't know as much about large units of men fighting, but I would think the age margin would widen substantially because soldiers would change lines often and the older guy could better command the younger ones surrounding him. Something to consider.

I know it's OT, but I have a quick question. I know this is a medieval setting, so the ages are skewed in that it is expected for people to die young. But could the availability of magical healing not potentially skew the survival rate of people back the other direction?

[tmp7704]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

He knows why more Wardens are necessary, I doubt it was not of importance to him, seeing how he is the one to suggest it. And it's not Ferelden political bickering. It's him advising conscription, which supercedes all politics.

If he wanted to exercize his power, he would have conscripted him.

Oh it was certainly important enough for him to bring it up in the first place. Just not enough to push the matter come hell or high water. That may make him look like a better judge of characters than the PC can be in some cases, considering when you do push it then at best you get to trade one Warden for another and so not really increase the numbers overall?

Furthermore, even the non-Ferelden armies vow their loyalty to you. Alsitair was not with me on nay of those Quests.

"You" being Grey Wardens, yes. It'd take one big-headed PC to take that vow as something aimed at them personally and only at them, considering these armies basically say "Yes there's this ancient treaties with Grey Wardens and now that our internal problems are out of the way, we shall abide by them".

He says "a commander", after you tell him you want to go scouting with him. It's clear who he is refering to.

Which is my point. Why the indefinite article when you both know who he's referring to?

He designates you as his leader, thus falls under your chain of command. That's how I see it.

I see it as "Alistair giveth, Alistair taketh away". He did not make any oath he's going to follow you no matter what or sold himself in slavery to you. Once you drove over his personal limits he no longer saw reason to follow you, and so your informal command over him ended there and then.

Modifié par tmp7704, 06 juin 2010 - 07:39 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Hanz54321 wrote...

One thing I know a lot about is hand to hand combat. In single combat 50 is over the hill when fighting an experienced fighter say, in his early 30s. The age trumps the experience there. So the argument for "strong recruits" goes against Loghain.

When Arcturus dueled him, he barely made it out alive (and that seldom happened). He saw a strength in Loghain and he never saw in Alistair (even if technically Alsitair can beat Loghain. Arcturus can never know that).

In addition, I conscripted Loghain as a brilliant strategist and tactician. Of course as it turns out, those skills were not used in the game which was dissapointing. But still, that was the logic in the Landsmeet. Wardens are more than just warriors. They are leaders. I see Loghain as moe of a leader than Alsitair.

[Herr Uhl]

Sarah1281 wrote...

phaonica wrote...

Hanz54321 wrote...

Arcturus Mensk - also a fantastic villian.

Somebody commented that Loghain as old and washed up. If you take him into your group Morrigan comments that Loghain is much younger than she expected a legendary general to be. I believe he's not nearly as old as Duncan or Riordan - he's just rough looking because he's not of a noble blood line. That's not to say he's a spring chicken, but I got the impression Loghain was in his late 30s.

Anyone who has read the books can let me know. I know he met Maric when they were still kids so they started their rebellion very young - like in Red Dawn. WOLVERINES!

I think he's older than 30s. I had the impression that he's younger than Riordan because Riordan refers to himself as the eldest (and I didn't think he was talking about years spent as a warden, just years in general). I'm thinking... early 50s perhaps?

The Orlesians were driven out thirty years ago so I just put Loghain at about fifty. He looks REALLY good for his age, though. You know who else in the game was fifty? King Endrin.
 


See the difference? 

Know who was 45? Eamon.

[Sarah1281]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

phaonica wrote...

Hanz54321 wrote...

Arcturus Mensk - also a fantastic villian.

Somebody commented that Loghain as old and washed up. If you take him into your group Morrigan comments that Loghain is much younger than she expected a legendary general to be. I believe he's not nearly as old as Duncan or Riordan - he's just rough looking because he's not of a noble blood line. That's not to say he's a spring chicken, but I got the impression Loghain was in his late 30s.

Anyone who has read the books can let me know. I know he met Maric when they were still kids so they started their rebellion very young - like in Red Dawn. WOLVERINES!

I think he's older than 30s. I had the impression that he's younger than Riordan because Riordan refers to himself as the eldest (and I didn't think he was talking about years spent as a warden, just years in general). I'm thinking... early 50s perhaps?

The Orlesians were driven out thirty years ago so I just put Loghain at about fifty. He looks REALLY good for his age, though. You know who else in the game was fifty? King Endrin.
 


See the difference? 

Know who was 45? Eamon.

How does Loghain do it? Does he just have really great genetics? 

[KnightofPhoenix]

tmp7704 wrote...
Oh it was certainly important enough for him to bring it up in the first place. Just not enough to push the matter come hell or high water. That may make him look like a better judge of characters than the PC can be in some cases, considering when you do push it then at best you get to trade one Warden for another and so not really increase the numbers overall?

I got Loghain. A fair deal. I think he is better.

tmp7704 wrote...
"You" being Grey Wardens, yes. It'd take one big-headed PC to take that vow as something aimed at them personally, considering these armies basically say "Yes there's this ancient treaties and now that our internal problems are out of the way, we shall abide by them".

None of them abided by the treaty because they were told to. They all abided after what the PC did for them.
The templars do not have to abide by the treaty, yet they swore allegiance after what my PC did for them. The Dalish only joined after what my PC did for them. The Dwarves joined because of what my PC did for them. Alsitair was not present and the treaties were all but useless.

Not saying I htink those armies are commanded by the Warden even after the Blight. But yes I saw the vow as aimed at my PC personally after what he did to secure them.

tmp7704 wrote...
Which is my point. Why the indefinite article when you both know who he's referring to?

No army can have two commanders. And even if they have, one must be below the other in terms of hierarchy.

tmp7704 wrote...
I see it as "Alistair giveth, Alistair taketh away". He did not make any oath he's going to follow you no matter what or sold himself in slavery to you. Once you drove over his personal limits he no longer saw reason to follow you, and so your informal command over him ended there and then.

Not for my PC. He sees it very much like Sten.
I am nto saying you are wrong, your position is valid. But so is mine.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 06 juin 2010 - 07:42 .

[Addai]

phaonica wrote...

I think he's older than 30s. I had the impression that he's younger than Riordan because Riordan refers to himself as the eldest (and I didn't think he was talking about years spent as a warden, just years in general). I'm thinking... early 50s perhaps?

I do think Riordan is talking about eldest in terms of being a Grey Warden.  He says that he wants to take the final blow because he is the senior Warden and the taint will not spare him for long.

[phaonica]

Sarah1281 wrote...

How does Loghain do it? Does he just have really great genetics? 

Despite the years, Loghain maintains his sexy beast factor.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

None of them abided by the treaty because they were told to. They all abided after what the PC did for them.
 

You say all this as though your PC did all of these things alone.  Even if you never recruited a single NPC besides Alistair and solo'ed the game, that in itself is putting your PC in a place that is not realistic.

[Addai]

Sarah1281 wrote...
 How does Loghain do it? Does he just have really great genetics? 

The game timeline is a bit confused.  Loghain also says "you fought with us, Eamon" and that is not technically true.  Eamon and Teagan were young boys and off being fostered in the Free Marches during the rebellion.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

None of them abided by the treaty because they were told to. They all abided after what the PC did for them.
 

You say all this as though your PC did all of these things alone.  Even if you never recruited a single NPC besides Alistair and solo'ed the game, that in itself is putting your PC in a place that is not realistic.

Alistair was not present. And the PC is the leader of the band he commands, which makes even Alsitair under his command, which is how Alistair wants it in the first place. 

You may not see this like I do, but at least realise that I am being coherent.  

[phaonica]

Addai67 wrote...

phaonica wrote...

I think he's older than 30s. I had the impression that he's younger than Riordan because Riordan refers to himself as the eldest (and I didn't think he was talking about years spent as a warden, just years in general). I'm thinking... early 50s perhaps?

I do think Riordan is talking about eldest in terms of being a Grey Warden.  He says that he wants to take the final blow because he is the senior Warden and the taint will not spare him for long.

He might be. I don't know. It seems like just because Riordan has been a Warden longer, it doesn't necessarily mean that the Calling will claim him before someone who is older who just became a Warden. But I don't know. It was just the impression I got, I could very well be wrong.

[Herr Uhl]

phaonica wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

phaonica wrote...

I think he's older than 30s. I had the impression that he's younger than Riordan because Riordan refers to himself as the eldest (and I didn't think he was talking about years spent as a warden, just years in general). I'm thinking... early 50s perhaps?

I do think Riordan is talking about eldest in terms of being a Grey Warden.  He says that he wants to take the final blow because he is the senior Warden and the taint will not spare him for long.

He might be. I don't know. It seems like just because Riordan has been a Warden longer, it doesn't necessarily mean that the Calling will claim him before someone who is older who just became a Warden. But I don't know. It was just the impression I got, I could very well be wrong.

I would be surprised if Loghain lives for more than five years after the joining considering his age.

[Maria13]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Hanz54321 wrote...

One thing I know a lot about is hand to hand combat. In single combat 50 is over the hill when fighting an experienced fighter say, in his early 30s. The age trumps the experience there. So the argument for "strong recruits" goes against Loghain.

When Arcturus dueled him, he barely made it out alive (and that seldom happened). He saw a strength in Loghain and he never saw in Alistair (even if technically Alsitair can beat Loghain. Arcturus can never know that).

In addition, I conscripted Loghain as a brilliant strategist and tactician. Of course as it turns out, those skills were not used in the game which was dissapointing. But still, that was the logic in the Landsmeet. Wardens are more than just warriors. They are leaders. I see Loghain as moe of a leader than Alsitair.

No they are not.  They are ultimately just vessels to destroy the archdemon.  It wouldn't matter what great leaders wardens were, they could be the best leaders in Thedas but if they were not tainted the archdemon would not be destroyed.  So in a way, the most minor of wardens, is greater than the very best non-tainted hero, the non-tainted hero has just to step aside and let the minor warden deliver the last pin ****** that ends the archdemon's life and the archdemon will be destroyed, if the great hero delivers the final blow, the Blight continues.