965 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

Maria13 wrote...
No they are not.  They are ultimately just vessels to destroy the archdemon.  It wouldn't matter what great leaders wardens were, they could be the best leaders in Thedas but if they were not tainted the archdemon would not be destroyed.  So in a way, the most minor of wardens, is greater than the very best non-tainted hero, the non-tainted hero has just to step aside and let the minor warden deliver the last pin ****** that ends the archdemon's life and the archdemon will be destroyed, if the great hero delivers the final blow, the Blight continues.

At the landmseet, my PC did not know that. But he knew that the Wardens historically led and commanded armies and were great strategists and tacticians. Something Alsitair does not qualify as, at least when comapred to Loghain.

[Tirigon]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

As for flaws. Well cold, calculating, ambitious, pragmatic. He doesnt' see them as flaws, but he knows they can be corrupted and lead him to disaster.    

See? All these "flaws" are what make him a great ruler (at least in your and Costin´s eyes, not so much for me:P).

From what little I know that´s quite Mary Sue.

[Sarah1281]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Maria13 wrote...
No they are not.  They are ultimately just vessels to destroy the archdemon.  It wouldn't matter what great leaders wardens were, they could be the best leaders in Thedas but if they were not tainted the archdemon would not be destroyed.  So in a way, the most minor of wardens, is greater than the very best non-tainted hero, the non-tainted hero has just to step aside and let the minor warden deliver the last pin ****** that ends the archdemon's life and the archdemon will be destroyed, if the great hero delivers the final blow, the Blight continues.

At the landmseet, my PC did not know that. But he knew that the Wardens historically led and commanded armies and were great strategists and tacticians. Something Alsitair does not qualify as, at least when comapred to Loghain.

That's a moot point anyway because Loghain becomes another vessel to destroy the archdemon. Of course, once the DR is done Cammen could kill the archdemon and it would still be defeated.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sarah1281 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Maria13 wrote...
No they are not.  They are ultimately just vessels to destroy the archdemon.  It wouldn't matter what great leaders wardens were, they could be the best leaders in Thedas but if they were not tainted the archdemon would not be destroyed.  So in a way, the most minor of wardens, is greater than the very best non-tainted hero, the non-tainted hero has just to step aside and let the minor warden deliver the last pin ****** that ends the archdemon's life and the archdemon will be destroyed, if the great hero delivers the final blow, the Blight continues.

At the landmseet, my PC did not know that. But he knew that the Wardens historically led and commanded armies and were great strategists and tacticians. Something Alsitair does not qualify as, at least when comapred to Loghain.

That's a moot point anyway because Loghain becomes another vessel to destroy the archdemon. Of course, once the DR is done Cammen could kill the archdemon and it would still be defeated.

Again, my PC did not know that. And yes, the game did not make use of Loghain's strategic mind and he was just a replacement tank.

but that's not how I RP it.

[Lord Gremlin]

Heh, somebody is forgetting that before dealing this final blow wardens must develop strategy to actually defeat archdemon.

[phaonica]

Herr Uhl wrote...



I would be surprised if Loghain lives for more than five years after the joining considering his age.

[Lord Gremlin]

phaonica wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...



I would be surprised if Loghain lives for more than five years after the joining considering his age.

Well, you can meet him in Awakening (if he survived in Origins) and he's alright.

[Asdara]

It really bugged me that Alistair wanted me to lead being so green on my first character, especially since that was my Circle Mage Elf who was probably the least qualified person in all of Ferelden to be leading the efforts at that time. It also rankled me that he would say one thing and then expect another at so many points in the story. Particularly when he said "I would not normally advise killing a child, but... he's an abomination y'all" and then got ultra ultra offended when I jogged upstairs and slew Collin instead of using bloodmagic, which he obviously spoke out against - or doing the tower option because everyone worried me that if I left I'd find the town in ashes when I returned. (Mind you, my first playthrough I had NO knowledge from the internet about what would happen and was totally virgin to every experience by design). Then he hit me with that "I don't want to be king" nonsense until I wasn't going to make him king and he got all upset with me - even though I had him as my champion (mage vs. Loghain? I thought not) when I asked him "Should I make Anora Queen?" and he's all "NO! Look what she did at the Landsmeet being all backstabbity" because I didn't actually agree to support her in the previous dialog options.



On that character, had I known it was an option, I'd have jettisoned him for Loghain in a heartbeat. Especially since when I DID make him King because he finally wanted it, he went ahead and dumped my elven mage behind faster than you can say "I need a baby momma and you ain't it"



Course, I didn't know then what I know now. I've never had another character like that since finding out some things to make life a little more pleasant - and I haven't played another mage since either, elven or otherwise. I keep meaning to, but I somehow don't have the spirit for it. I never even bothered to keep going and kill the Archdemon on that first play through. I just lost the heart for it and started anew.



So, I can see the argument on some characters for choosing Loghain and I can see the reasons to keep Alastair on others. I think it has a great deal to do with how you played, how you were reacted to when you did play, and what background your character comes from more than the attributes of either person though. You can make an argument that both have their redeeming and less pleasing qualities from an objective standpoint. Thing is, your PC isn't objective by that point in the game. They have been shaped by all that's come before and that makes the choice in the end I think more than any objective factor.

[Maria13]

Lord Gremlin wrote...

Heh, somebody is forgetting that before dealing this final blow wardens must develop strategy to actually defeat archdemon.

But you see it doesn't have to be a warden that develops that strategy, the only thing necessary to end a Blight is that a tainted warden delivers the final blow.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Alistair was not present. And the PC is the leader of the band he commands, which makes even Alsitair under his command, which is how Alistair wants it in the first place. 

You may not see this like I do, but at least realise that I am being coherent.  

You are assuming Alistair's deferral to your leadership means something that clearly Alistair does not think it does.  Just because he is fairly phlegmatic about most things does not mean that he has turned his life over to you like some kind of vassal.  The fact that you interpret it that way speaks to your PC's view of himself, not the actual reality of the game.

I was thinking about a couple of the personality profiles in the Myers-Briggs scheme and trying to pick one for Alistair.  None really fit perfectly, but the reason I thought of it is that for my own (INFP), there is a description which talks about how this person is generally easy-going and phlegmatic, but has a strong inner sense of values such that when one of these values is violated, the person becomes instantly intractable and vehement.  This surprises people who don't know the person and can seem like a purely emotional, irrational reaction.  Often these value lines are related to defense of the downtrodden.

This is what I have in mind as I consider Alistair's reaction in the Landsmeet and elsewhere, and I do think it applies.  He feels his objection very keenly, but it is not purely emotional or revenge-seeking.  He sees a core value being violated, that Loghain is going to escape justice for his crimes, and won't stand for it.  It's a principled reaction and not purely a personal one.

[Tirigon]

Sarah1281 wrote...
So are all video game protagonists Mary Sues in your eyes just because of their medium?

All I know of, yes. Except for the villains of course and those who die, because they die.

Again, it is not mandatory but depends on how your RP. If you put actual flaws into your Warden and don't make them perfect then the fact that the character is not you (which is another hallmark of a Mary Sue btw) then that will not doom them to Mary Sue-hood. You don't even have to make your Warden all that likeable or respectable.

Well I found it impoossible to play a Warden who is not a Badass otherf*cker. Though I certainly tried.

Or you can make deals with demons, kill innocents, steal blood from your companions to power your spells...this game leaves a lot of room to be corrupted. All you really HAVE to do is stop the Blight but it is in everyone's best interest including the most corrupt of Wardens. I mean, take the Darkspawn Chronicles. Howe is as corrupt as ever but because he's still alive he's trying to stop the Blight because not doing so is really, really stupid. 

And all these bad things do not change the fact that you´re the hero. I mean, the closest I have to a canon playthrough was a Bloodmage who acted against the chantry and the nobiility whenever possible, and she is still hero of Ferelden and savior of all etc....

All of that is only true if you RP it that way which you apparently have been (except for the no one calling you out on your behavior which isn't even remotely true). That doesn't mean everyone else does.

I certainly didn´t try to play that way. But I have to say, I think DAO gives you surprisingly little room to RP a character in-game. Of course you can imagine something, or write FanFic. But what you can do ingame is waaaay too limited.

Modifié par Tirigon, 06 juin 2010 - 08:07 .

[phaonica]

Lord Gremlin wrote...

phaonica wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...



I would be surprised if Loghain lives for more than five years after the joining considering his age.

Well, you can meet him in Awakening (if he survived in Origins) and he's alright.

But isn't that only like a couple of months later? And they're shipping him to Orlais, and I'll never see him again, especially if his Calling comes

I was extremely pleased in Origins to find him to be happy to be alive, and not moping or complaining. He almost seemed excited and amused by his being relocated to Orlais.

[Lord Gremlin]

Maria13 wrote...

Lord Gremlin wrote...

Heh, somebody is forgetting that before dealing this final blow wardens must develop strategy to actually defeat archdemon.

But you see it doesn't have to be a warden that develops that strategy, the only thing necessary to end a Blight is that a tainted warden delivers the final blow.

If you're not a Warden yourself, you can always betray wardens. When you join wardens, you can't go back and have to side with them forever. But if you are one of them, tainted and all, if you're not with your brethren then one day you'll wake up surrounded by darkspawn welcome party. That said, maybe genlocks will bring you cookies for betraying other wardens, but most likely those cookies will be made of your meat...
...which makes em meatballs, but you get the idea.

[Tirigon]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...


When Arcturus dueled him, he barely made it out alive (and that seldom happened). He saw a strength in Loghain and he never saw in Alistair (even if technically Alsitair can beat Loghain. Arcturus can never know that).

My Alistair couldn´t beat Loghain. I tried to, because I wanted to avoid the decision whether to spare or to execute him, but I lost 3 times until I chose to fight Loghain with my PC. It was a cakewalk then...........

[Maria13]

Lord Gremlin wrote...

Maria13 wrote...

Lord Gremlin wrote...

Heh, somebody is forgetting that before dealing this final blow wardens must develop strategy to actually defeat archdemon.

But you see it doesn't have to be a warden that develops that strategy, the only thing necessary to end a Blight is that a tainted warden delivers the final blow.

If you're not a Warden yourself, you can always betray wardens. When you join wardens, you can't go back and have to side with them forever. But if you are one of them, tainted and all, if you're not with your brethren then one day you'll wake up surrounded by darkspawn welcome party. That said, maybe genlocks will bring you cookies for betraying other wardens, but most likely those cookies will be made of your meat...
...which makes em meatballs, but you get the idea.

I don't quite follow the point you are making here...

[Addai]

Hanz54321 wrote...

Eamon - I read somewhere he is close to Teagan in age. Eamon just looks like crap because of the poison.

And that's legit. There are documented cases of trauma, illness, poison prematurely aging a person.

7 years apart, I believe.  Eamon was 15 and Teagan was 8 at the end of The Stolen Throne.

[Finiffa]

Tirigon wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...


When Arcturus dueled him, he barely made it out alive (and that seldom happened). He saw a strength in Loghain and he never saw in Alistair (even if technically Alsitair can beat Loghain. Arcturus can never know that).

My Alistair couldn´t beat Loghain. I tried to, because I wanted to avoid the decision whether to spare or to execute him, but I lost 3 times until I chose to fight Loghain with my PC. It was a cakewalk then...........

It is easier on my PC to kill Loghain but Alistair can do it (and did in my last playthrough) with not many problems (s&s/templar/champion spec) and no, I never use healing pots in that fight, feels like cheating.

[tmp7704]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

None of them abided by the treaty because they were told to. They all abided after what the PC did for them.

After their internal problems were solved, yes. But they were still following the arrangement made by these treaties, which was to follow the Grey Wardens. In general, not any specific Grey Warden and only them. If these problems were solved by Sandal or the Maker instead of the PC they would still follow the Grey Wardens due to the treaties which obliged them to, not Sandal or the Maker.

Don't get me wrong, i can certainly see why the PC would feel self-entitlement there after all they have done. But i consider it just that, self-entitlement. There is no reason why these groups wouldn't follow any other Grey Warden with the treaties just the same.

No army can have two commanders. And even if they have, one must be below the other in terms of hierarchy.

There can be more than one person with rank of general in the army, it does not mean nor require them both to actively command that army at the same time. And it is better to have two potential generals than one, if just because it ensures there's still someone who can command when the other general falls. Hence allowing one (or both) such general(s) to go together with the commander-in-chief would be pretty reckless.

Not for my PC. He sees it very much like Sten.
I am nto saying you are wrong, your position is valid. But so is mine.

Really? Out of curiosity, does your PC ever allow anyone to command them, then? If they do, does it only end with death of either party, or when that other person relinquish the control granted?

Btw, Sten does quit or try to take command from you when he thinks you're acting stupid. So no, that doesn't seem like the way Sten acts, really.

[Lord Gremlin]

Maria13 wrote...

Lord Gremlin wrote...

Maria13 wrote...

Lord Gremlin wrote...

Heh, somebody is forgetting that before dealing this final blow wardens must develop strategy to actually defeat archdemon.

But you see it doesn't have to be a warden that develops that strategy, the only thing necessary to end a Blight is that a tainted warden delivers the final blow.

If you're not a Warden yourself, you can always betray wardens. When you join wardens, you can't go back and have to side with them forever. But if you are one of them, tainted and all, if you're not with your brethren then one day you'll wake up surrounded by darkspawn welcome party. That said, maybe genlocks will bring you cookies for betraying other wardens, but most likely those cookies will be made of your meat...
...which makes em meatballs, but you get the idea.

I don't quite follow the point you are making here...

My point is that wardens have to be loyal. They don't have a choice. So making someone a Grey Warden is a way to make him 100% loyal to Grey Wardens. Or dead.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Alistair was not present. And the PC is the leader of the band he commands, which makes even Alsitair under his command, which is how Alistair wants it in the first place. 

You may not see this like I do, but at least realise that I am being coherent.  

You are assuming Alistair's deferral to your leadership means something that clearly Alistair does not think it does.  Just because he is fairly phlegmatic about most things does not mean that he has turned his life over to you like some kind of vassal.  The fact that you interpret it that way speaks to your PC's view of himself, not the actual reality of the game.

The actual reality of the game is that the PC is leader. You choose to RP it differently and you are entitled to. I choose to RP it differently from you as well. It's arrogant to assume that the way I RP is false and yours is right.

If Alistair does not know the meaning of leadership, then it's a tragic mistake that he paid the price for. But in my PC's mind, it's clear. Alsitair choosing the PC as leader makes him a subordinate, who follows orders.

And I am not asking Alsitair to be a vassal. Nor am I asking him to like Loghain or anyone. I am asking him to remain and fight the Blight as his duty dictates him to do first and foremost. And he does not.  

[phaonica]

Tirigon wrote...

I certainly didn´t try to play that way. But I have to say, I think DAO gives you surprisingly little room to RP a character in-game. Of course you can imagine something, or write FanFic. But what you can do ingame is waaaay too limited.

I dont think that DAO gives you little room to RP, I actually think the opposite. I think it gives you a very interesting sandbox to weave your characters into. However, because one of the primary RP mechanics in the game is the ability for the PC to make different choices with different consequences, it could be argued that DAO by its nature is inclined to create Mary Sues because no matter what choices you make, you will still be the hero, and you will still win.

[Addai]

Lord Gremlin wrote...

If you're not a Warden yourself, you can always betray wardens. When you join wardens, you can't go back and have to side with them forever.

That is hardly true.  Bregan from The Calling being one example.