965 réponses à ce sujet

[Addai]

tmp7704 wrote...

phaonica wrote...

How does that make my character more of a mary sue than yours?

I think it's the attitude of expecting servility from Alistair no matter what that may make it seem so, because really, he never actually promises that to PC, does he?

Indeed.

[phaonica]

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

phaonica wrote...

I'm with you KoP, I too saw Alistair's putting his foot down as an act of insubordination. If someone else's character thinks of Alistair as their peer, then that's fine, they have their reasons, but my character did not, and I have mine.

And that, to me, is a Mary Sue PC.  Obviously others do not share my opinion... that goes without saying.  I just can't take that very seriously.

Well sorry to say that I can't take your argument seriously either, if you are going to pull the Mary Sue card at every occasion.

It's not a "card," just how I see it.  I dislike this view of the Warden, that's all.  Personal preference.

It is a card. It is an attack on someone's character to call them a Mary Sue, and it trivializes their argument the same way you are claiming we trivialize Alistair's argument.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ok. Do you at least admit it is a valid position and people are entitled to play that way? Or not even that?

I would never tell anyone else how to play their game.  It's your 40 bucks.  As for being valid, I don't see it as terribly valid, no, or else I wouldn't argue against that perspective of Alistair and the PC.

[Tirigon]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Ah yes...the anarchist speaks again of politics.

Thanks for using anarchist as insult. Speaks of your maturity.

That's a nice concept, that the Chantry can force nobles...."snorts" Meghren certainly was bowing down to the Grand Cleric, as was Maric.

Meghren was a tyrant, he´s not representative. Also, Meghren had several legions of Chevaliers at his command. Show me the nobles who have the same.

Fact is, Nobles have NO power over mages and templars, as it is said in-game. No matter if an anarchist tells you that or someone else.

[Sarah1281]

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

phaonica wrote...

I'm with you KoP, I too saw Alistair's putting his foot down as an act of insubordination. If someone else's character thinks of Alistair as their peer, then that's fine, they have their reasons, but my character did not, and I have mine.

And that, to me, is a Mary Sue PC.  Obviously others do not share my opinion... that goes without saying.  I just can't take that very seriously.

Well sorry to say that I can't take your argument seriously either, if you are going to pull the Mary Sue card at every occasion.

It's not a "card," just how I see it.  I dislike this view of the Warden, that's all.  Personal preference.

You don't have to like that view of the Warden. I, for instance, dislike Wardens who literally cut all ties to their past and live out their dies as a WC. I know many other do that and I don't think those characters who do are Mary Sues. People overuse that term today. The most basic definition for a Mary Sue is a character with no noticable flaws and who everyone loves despite how little sense this may make. Someone who interprets Alistiar saying 'I don't know what to do so I want you to make the decisions' to mean that Alistair has made them the leader and who, going off of his very limited knowledge of the Wardens, decides (possibly falsely) that it's a military order and thus desertion cannot be tolerated does not qualify them as a Mary Sue.

[Addai]

phaonica wrote...

It is a card. It is an attack on someone's character to call them a Mary Sue, and it trivializes their argument the same way you are claiming we trivialize Alistair's argument.

If you say so.  It's my take on that view of the Warden, where everyone must bow to the PC's wishes or die (edit: and where the PC does everything in the game single-handedly).  There are arguments for sparing Loghain which do not frame it this way, of course.

Modifié par Addai67, 06 juin 2010 - 08:51 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ok. Do you at least admit it is a valid position and people are entitled to play that way? Or not even that?

I would never tell anyone else how to play their game.  It's your 40 bucks.  As for being valid, I don't see it as terribly valid, no, or else I wouldn't argue against that perspective of Alistair and the PC.

Well that's the difference between us. I personally see it valid that one can see Alsitair as a peer. Especially when romanced. Just like it's equally valid that one can see Alistair as a subordinate.
 
But that's just me.

[Tirigon]

Addai67 wrote...


If you say so.  It's my take on that view of the Warden, where everyone must bow to the PC's wishes or die. 

In fact, this is the case. Wardens do what they have to do to stop the Blight. If you think killing everyone who disagrees with you helps you stopping the Blight, then it´s your right to do so.

[Sarah1281]

Addai67 wrote...

phaonica wrote...

It is a card. It is an attack on someone's character to call them a Mary Sue, and it trivializes their argument the same way you are claiming we trivialize Alistair's argument.

If you say so.  It's my take on that view of the Warden, where everyone must bow to the PC's wishes or die.  There are arguments for sparing Loghain which do not frame it this way, of course.

Most people are not arguing that Alistair disagreeing with the PC is a crime deserving of death! The argument is whether leaving during a Blight is deserving of death and, more specifically, if you can justify him doing that because you do not kill one man. You sparing Loghain does NOT make you a Mary Sue!

Modifié par Sarah1281, 06 juin 2010 - 08:52 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Tirigon wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Ah yes...the anarchist speaks again of politics.

Thanks for using anarchist as insult. Speaks of your maturity.

That's a nice concept, that the Chantry can force nobles...."snorts" Meghren certainly was bowing down to the Grand Cleric, as was Maric.

Meghren was a tyrant, he´s not representative. Also, Meghren had several legions of Chevaliers at his command. Show me the nobles who have the same.

Fact is, Nobles have NO power over mages and templars, as it is said in-game. No matter if an anarchist tells you that or someone else.

The Nobles have their armed guards. The chantry tries to force the issue, then it becomes an argument that will involve the King. And the King has more power the Chantry, despite what the latter might claim.

I would like to see anyone try and force Howe from keeping his mages.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 06 juin 2010 - 08:55 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

phaonica wrote...

It is a card. It is an attack on someone's character to call them a Mary Sue, and it trivializes their argument the same way you are claiming we trivialize Alistair's argument.

If you say so.  It's my take on that view of the Warden, where everyone must bow to the PC's wishes or die.  There are arguments for sparing Loghain which do not frame it this way, of course.

Most people are not arguing that Alistair disagreeing with the PC is a crime deserving of death! The argument is whether leaving during a Blight is deserving of death and, more specifically, if you can justify him doing that because you do not kill one man. You sparing Loghain does NOT make you a Mary Sue!

Redhead on fire!

Not but seriously, there is little point arguing. I can't take anyone using labels that are simply incorrect that often, very seriously.

[Sarah1281]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

phaonica wrote...

It is a card. It is an attack on someone's character to call them a Mary Sue, and it trivializes their argument the same way you are claiming we trivialize Alistair's argument.

If you say so.  It's my take on that view of the Warden, where everyone must bow to the PC's wishes or die.  There are arguments for sparing Loghain which do not frame it this way, of course.

Most people are not arguing that Alistair disagreeing with the PC is a crime deserving of death! The argument is whether leaving during a Blight is deserving of death and, more specifically, if you can justify him doing that because you do not kill one man. You sparing Loghain does NOT make you a Mary Sue!

Redhead on fire!

Not but seriously, there is little point arguing. I can't take anyone using labels that are simply incorrect that often, very seriously.

Being labelled a Mary Sue is a fanfiction writer's worst nightmare.

[Addai]

Sarah1281 wrote...
 Most people are not arguing that Alistair disagreeing with the PC is a crime deserving of death!

This is exactly, word for word, what KoP is arguing.  Alistair's verbal "insubordination."  I am not talking about "most people," I am following the vein of conversation in this particular thread.

So there's no need for so many exclamation points. 

[phaonica]

Addai67 wrote...

If you say so.  It's my take on that view of the Warden, where everyone must bow to the PC's wishes or die (edit: and where the PC does everything in the game single-handedly).  There are arguments for sparing Loghain which do not frame it this way, of course.

Saying "Everyone must bow to the PC's wishes or die" is trivializing the argument, every bit as much as someone might say "Alistair's desire for revenge is petty".

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
 Most people are not arguing that Alistair disagreeing with the PC is a crime deserving of death!

This is exactly, word for word, what KoP is arguing.  Alistair's verbal "insubordination."  I am not talking about "most people," I am following the vein of conversation in this particular thread.

So there's no need for so many exclamation points. 

No, it is not. He declared his intention to desert. That is not only verbal insubordination. He could disagree all he wants, just not declare his intention to desert and expect to be allowed to.

I already said. If Alistair requested he follows Riordan and not my PC, I do not mind. If Alsitair requested he went with Tegan or Eamon, I do not mind. If Alsitair requested he leaves to join the Orlesian wardens, I do not mind. But him leaving the fight completely? Yes I do mind.
And I have already said that many times.

Seriously Addai, if you can't make the effort to read my posts seriously and remember what I say a few pages back then I see no point at all in continuing this discussion.

[Tirigon]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

The Nobles have their armed guards. The chantry tries to force the issue, then it becomes an argument that will involve the King. And the King has more power the Chantry, despite what the latter might claim.

I would like to see anyone try and force Howe from keeping his mages.

As said, in theory and according to thelaw the Chantry has the power to force him and to capture these mages.
Of course this doesn´t mean they´ll do. In theory the Wardens can conscript the Empress of Orlais.....

Theory and reality are often different.
But I doubt a noble would risk a conflict with the Chantry only to have a healer at home.

[Addai]

phaonica wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

If you say so.  It's my take on that view of the Warden, where everyone must bow to the PC's wishes or die (edit: and where the PC does everything in the game single-handedly).  There are arguments for sparing Loghain which do not frame it this way, of course.

Saying "Everyone must bow to the PC's wishes or die" is trivializing the argument, every bit as much as someone might say "Alistair's desire for revenge is petty".

Hyperbolizing, granted.

[OldMan91]

Thanks for using anarchist as insult. Speaks of your maturity.

Anarchists are actually pretty decent people.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

No, it is not. He declared his intention to desert. That is not only verbal insubordination. He could disagree all he wants, just not declare his intention to desert and expect to be allowed to.

I already said. If Alistair requested he follows Riordan and not my PC, I do not mind. If Alsitair requested he went with Tegan or Eamon, I do not mind. If Alsitair requested he leaves to join the Orlesian wardens, I do not mind. But him leaving the fight completely? Yes I do mind.

This gets back to the idea of whether or not you have the authority to tell him where he can and cannot go, which brings us around the circle.

[Tirigon]

Addai67 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
 Most people are not arguing that Alistair disagreeing with the PC is a crime deserving of death!

This is exactly, word for word, what KoP is arguing.  Alistair's verbal "insubordination."  I am not talking about "most people," I am following the vein of conversation in this particular thread.

So there's no need for so many exclamation points. 

KoP argues that Alistair deserves a death sentence because he deserts. A view that I do not share, but a view that IS shared by many laws both in fantasy and in Real Life.
Even in countries without death sentence deserters are imprisoned or otherwise punished. I don´t know of a single country - neither in fantasy nor a real - that allows desertion.

[Tirigon]

OldMan91 wrote...

Thanks for using anarchist as insult. Speaks of your maturity.

Anarchists are actually pretty decent people.

Of course. But most people I know do not think so, sadly.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

No, it is not. He declared his intention to desert. That is not only verbal insubordination. He could disagree all he wants, just not declare his intention to desert and expect to be allowed to.

I already said. If Alistair requested he follows Riordan and not my PC, I do not mind. If Alsitair requested he went with Tegan or Eamon, I do not mind. If Alsitair requested he leaves to join the Orlesian wardens, I do not mind. But him leaving the fight completely? Yes I do mind.

This gets back to the idea of whether or not you have the authority to tell him where he can and cannot go, which brings us around the circle.

And I see his deferral of leadership as giving me that authority. You do not. Both positions are valid.

But to say "Lolol KoP is killing Alistair because he didn't agree with him!" is just ridiculous.

EDITED

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 06 juin 2010 - 09:07 .

[Addai]

Tirigon wrote...

KoP argues that Alistair deserves a death sentence because he deserts. A view that I do not share, but a view that IS shared by many laws both in fantasy and in Real Life.
Even in countries without death sentence deserters are imprisoned or otherwise punished. I don´t know of a single country - neither in fantasy nor a real - that allows desertion.

If there were a corresponding notion in the game as regards Grey Wardens after their Joining, or if Alistair were a knight in the crown's service or in fealty to some noble lord, I would agree that it's valid.  This is not the Black of the Song of Ice and Fire novels, for instance.  No one suggests the PC who leaves for Par Vollen or becomes a noble and sits back on their kiester is insubordinate and deserving of execution.

[phaonica]

Addai67 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
 Most people are not arguing that Alistair disagreeing with the PC is a crime deserving of death!

This is exactly, word for word, what KoP is arguing.  Alistair's verbal "insubordination."  I am not talking about "most people," I am following the vein of conversation in this particular thread.

So there's no need for so many exclamation points. 

I don't think his deserting was deserving of death, my character will respectfully disagree with KoP's character on that matter, and I as a player will respectfully agree that if your characer perceives Alistair to be a risk to the Wardens or Ferelden, then I can see why the Warden or Anora could be justified in executing him.

I do see Alistair's challenging my decision to that extreme in front of the Landsmeet to be unacceptable. Even if he were a peer, how bad does it look that the Wardens are fighting with *each other* during the Landsmeet?