965 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

Hanz54321 wrote...

"Mommyyyyyyy? What's a Mary Suuuueee????"

LOL - seriously - I've been reading this term for days and I've yet to look it up. I've no idea what it means. I crack myself up.

Mary Sue is the fantasy Hitler.

Aka a quick way to mock the opinion of others.

[Addai]

phaonica wrote...

I don't think his deserting was deserving of death, my character will respectfully disagree with KoP's character on that matter, and I as a player will respectfully agree that if your characer perceives Alistair to be a risk to the Wardens or Ferelden, then I can see why the Warden or Anora could be justified in executing him.

Well as I said upthread, I buy it if it is framed as the PC helping to secure Anora's power from possible rivalry.

I do see Alistair's challenging my decision to that extreme in front of the Landsmeet to be unacceptable. Even if he were a peer, how bad does it look that the Wardens are fighting with *each other* during the Landsmeet?

That must surely be put down to lack of wisdom on Riordan's part.

Modifié par Addai67, 06 juin 2010 - 09:11 .

[Sarah1281]

Hanz54321 wrote...

"Mommyyyyyyy? What's a Mary Suuuueee????"

LOL - seriously - I've been reading this term for days and I've yet to look it up. I've no idea what it means. I crack myself up.

See here.

The argument at this point doesn't appear to be about Mary Sues at all but about whether or not the Grey Wardens are a military order that allow desertion or not. I think that while one can resign from a military order IRL and thus not be an active member and can go off and do their thing, no real-life military order would allow a soldier to walk out for whatever reason right before the most decisive battle in a war.

[Tirigon]

Addai67 wrote...

If there were a corresponding notion in the game as regards Grey Wardens after their Joining, or if Alistair were a knight in the crown's service or in fealty to some noble lord, I would agree that it's valid.  This is not the Black of the Song of Ice and Fire novels, for instance.  No one suggests the PC who leaves for Par Vollen or becomes a noble and sits back on their kiester is insubordinate and deserving of execution.

The PCs do it after the Blight is defeated. By experience, that means the next Blight is a few hundred years away, and the hero has earned some peace - at least until his calling.

Alistair deserts during a Blight. There´s a major difference.

[DanaScu]

Addai67 wrote...

Hanz54321 wrote...

I have no idea where you are coming from or how I got involved in your "argument".  I was just making an observation.

But since you said it's not possible to say what Duncan would've done . . . it's not possible to say what ANYBODY would've done to an absolute certainty.  So if you want that "rule" placed on forum discussions, we can just stop typing and shut the forum down.

Rule?  Say what you like, I'm not the forum police.  I am simply pointing out that what a dead guy would/ would not do is pure speculation and thus not the strongest argument for or against anything.

Speculation based on what happened in the game though.

My city elf butchered how many humans, including the arl's son, to rescue her cousin? And Duncan steps in to conscript her and stop the guard from legally arresting her.

My Cousland's father said he was not willing to give up both of his children to the war and Blight; Duncan agreed he wouldn't take her. Later after Howe's troops attack, he tells a dying man lying in a spreading pool of blood he'll only rescue his child and his wife if he can recruit the child. [did anyone get the warn fuzzies from Duncan in that scene?]

My dwarf noble did kill her brother and ended up exiled to the Deep Roads. Duncan didn't care and accepted her as a recruit.

My duster casteless was a pretty efficient enforcer for Behrat; murdering the wanna-be smuggler didn't cause any qualms at all. Duncan didn't care what she had done; he stepped in and conscripted her.

Judging from what Duncan has done in the past, you could guess what he would be capable of doing in the future. I could see him accepting Loghain, actually. Murderers, maleficarum, thieves, apostates, and rebels have been Grey Wardens. Sophia Dryden didn't willingly choose to join the Wardens, remember, she was sentenced to join or die in the attempt.

Riordan was tortured by Howe under Loghain's orders. *Riordan* comes up with the option of recruiting Loghain. My city elf took that into consideration and agreed, despite the fact that she had just rescued her father from Loghain's slavers. Despite the fact Loghain was responsible for attempting to sell her father to Tevinters, and did sell Valendrian and Soris's betrothed, she put her feelings aside because Grey Wardens will do whatever is necessary to stop a Blight.

Whatever is necessary isn't "I want my revenge first, then we'll deal with the minor annoyance of the Blight". I finally got the ending where Alistair refuses to fight, but doesn't leave. My pc, whichever origin, could deal with that; if the worst case scenario happened and all three of the "real" Wardens fighting died, he would still be an option, if he ever accepted his duty as a Grey Warden of ending the Blight. My warden would have been dead however, so what happened to Ferelden would no longer have been her worry.

[Tirigon]

Addai67 wrote...

That must surely be put down to lack of wisdom on Riordan's part.

I agree. Let me repeat what I posted in the other Alistair thread a while back: Riordan is living proof that Orlesians or people living there for too long suck.

I never agreed more with Loghain than when he implies his hate towards Riordan.

[Asdara]

This whole question of having or not having authority is apparently being viewed through a modern day lens. The PC is given the decision after the dual of who to put on the throne. The PC has been leading and making the decisions for the entire party including Alastair up to that point. The decision to execute, let him go, make him marry Anora is put to the PC by Anora who at that point is the highest authority in the room politically speaking (since you've 'chosen' or in the process of choosing her to be Queen). How could you possibly have more authority over the situation wether Alistair submits himself to your authority or not? It isn't as if he fights the guards when they drag him away (I've watched it on You-tube), which presumably he could have.



I'm not as sure about your ability to single him out for desertion punishment, but the authority to kill or have mercy on him clearly belongs to the PC at that point. Plus, to have mercy you're burning the favor Anora offered you - so that alone gives you the power that's being debated on the basis of some military hierarchy which may or may not be in place. If anyone had the power to overrule that military order of things it's Riordan and he stands mute, no?

[phaonica]

Addai67 wrote...

phaonica wrote...

I don't think his deserting was deserving of death, my character will respectfully disagree with KoP's character on that matter, and I as a player will respectfully agree that if your characer perceives Alistair to be a risk to the Wardens or Ferelden, then I can see why the Warden or Anora could be justified in executing him.

Well as I said upthread, I buy it if it is framed as the PC helping to secure Anora's power from possible rivalry.

I do see Alistair's challenging my decision to that extreme in front of the Landsmeet to be unacceptable. Even if he were a peer, how bad does it look that the Wardens are fighting with *each other* during the Landsmeet?

That must surely be put down to lack of wisdom on Riordan's part.

So I'm to blame Riordan for the way that Alistair acts? Shall then my act of executing Alistair also be excused because of Riordan?

[Addai]

Tirigon wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

If there were a corresponding notion in the game as regards Grey Wardens after their Joining, or if Alistair were a knight in the crown's service or in fealty to some noble lord, I would agree that it's valid.  This is not the Black of the Song of Ice and Fire novels, for instance.  No one suggests the PC who leaves for Par Vollen or becomes a noble and sits back on their kiester is insubordinate and deserving of execution.

The PCs do it after the Blight is defeated. By experience, that means the next Blight is a few hundred years away, and the hero has earned some peace - at least until his calling.

Alistair deserts during a Blight. There´s a major difference.

It does make it worse, and legally wartime offenses are graver than peacetime ones.  However, particularly as the Blight does not really end (as per Awakening), it doesn't make that much of a difference in reality.  All those Wardens running after Morrigan are off the reservation.

Flip the tables and ask yourself if Alistair was made king and the PC decides he/she has had enough and is buggering off for Orzammar or wherever, do you think Alistair would have the Warden executed?  He would be extremely disappointed, yes, but if the basis was a severe disagreement, I think he would leave it on the level of personal disappointment and just get on with things.  Of course, this is probably why someone like KoP would say that he's a bad leader, whereas to me it shows that he's the better person than Anora.

Modifié par Addai67, 06 juin 2010 - 09:26 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

@ Caladhiel. So one must spare Alistair for practical reasons, because he would be closer to Ferelden (or in Ferelden) than the Orlesian Wardens. That's nice. Except Alistair does not have an army with him. If the entire army is annihilated and you fail, what hope could Alsitair possibly have on his own? I can understand sending him to the Orlesian Wardens as being a practical decision, and I would have considered it at the very least. But sparing him because you think having one warden with no army to be practical in the event that you and all your army is vanquished? I don't find that convincing. Not saying that the choice to let him go is invalid, I have been tempted by it. But it's not for this reason.

[sabreene]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@ Caladhiel. So one must spare Alistair for practical reasons, because he would be closer to Ferelden (or in Ferelden) than the Orlesian Wardens. That's nice. Except Alistair does not have an army with him. If the entire army is annihilated and you fail, what hope could Alsitair possibly have on his own? I can understand sending him to the Orlesian Wardens as being a practical decision, and I would have considered it at the very least. But sparing him because you think having one warden with no army to be practical in the event that you and all your army is vanquished? I don't find that convincing. Not saying that the choice to let him go is invalid, I have been tempted by it. But it's not for this reason.

When playing for the first time, or without meta-gaming, you don't know if Alistair will come back or not when you spare him. Since we now know, it's a mute point. But by sparing him, you're giving him a chance to show up and fight along side you.

[phaonica]

Asdara wrote...

This whole question of having or not having authority is apparently being viewed through a modern day lens. The PC is given the decision after the dual of who to put on the throne. The PC has been leading and making the decisions for the entire party including Alastair up to that point. The decision to execute, let him go, make him marry Anora is put to the PC by Anora who at that point is the highest authority in the room politically speaking (since you've 'chosen' or in the process of choosing her to be Queen). How could you possibly have more authority over the situation wether Alistair submits himself to your authority or not? It isn't as if he fights the guards when they drag him away (I've watched it on You-tube), which presumably he could have.

I'm not as sure about your ability to single him out for desertion punishment, but the authority to kill or have mercy on him clearly belongs to the PC at that point. Plus, to have mercy you're burning the favor Anora offered you - so that alone gives you the power that's being debated on the basis of some military hierarchy which may or may not be in place. If anyone had the power to overrule that military order of things it's Riordan and he stands mute, no?

Agreed. Alistair forfeits the leadership position to you. Via RP, you can choose to accept it, or set yourself in a position of co-leader with him. Either way is valid.

[Addai]

phaonica wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

phaonica wrote...

I don't think his deserting was deserving of death, my character will respectfully disagree with KoP's character on that matter, and I as a player will respectfully agree that if your characer perceives Alistair to be a risk to the Wardens or Ferelden, then I can see why the Warden or Anora could be justified in executing him.

Well as I said upthread, I buy it if it is framed as the PC helping to secure Anora's power from possible rivalry.

I do see Alistair's challenging my decision to that extreme in front of the Landsmeet to be unacceptable. Even if he were a peer, how bad does it look that the Wardens are fighting with *each other* during the Landsmeet?

That must surely be put down to lack of wisdom on Riordan's part.

So I'm to blame Riordan for the way that Alistair acts? Shall then my act of executing Alistair also be excused because of Riordan?

??  You're accusing Alistair of poor form for arguing with your PC in the Landsmeet (even though that's what the Landsmeet is for).  Apparently he's just supposed to shut up.  He's only claimant to the throne and your fellow Grey Warden, but somehow voicing his opinion is "unacceptable."

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
Flip the tables and ask yourself if Alistair was made king and the PC decides he/she has had enough and is buggering off for Orzammar or wherever, do you think Alistair would have the Warden executed?  He would be extremely disappointed, yes, but if the basis was a severe disagreement, I think he would leave it on the level of personal disappointment and just get on with things.  Of course, this is probably why someone like KoP would say that he's a bad leader, whereas to me it shows that he's the better person than Anora.

Except that this dwarf is not a Ferelden citizen and Alistair, as king of Ferelden, has no authority over that dwarf, if he / she seeks to go back to Orzammar, especially when she / he is declared Paragon. And Alistar, even as King, does not have the authority over other Wardens, especially since the PC does not defer leadership to him.

So no. And that's not to mention that this is a time of peace and it's not desertion, as the PC is not necessarily part of Ferelden's army at that point.

So don't put words in my mouth.

[KnightofPhoenix]

sabreene wrote...
When playing for the first time, or without meta-gaming, you don't know if Alistair will come back or not when you spare him. Since we now know, it's a mute point. But by sparing him, you're giving him a chance to show up and fight along side you.

True, but that depends on you trusting him to come back. After what he said and did, my PC could no longer trust him to come back.

[Tirigon]

Addai67 wrote...

It does make it worse, and legally wartime offenses are more grave than peacetime ones.  However, particularly as the Blight does not really end (as per Awakening), it doesn't make that much of a difference in reality.  All those Wardens running after Morrigan are off the reservation.

Flip the tables and ask yourself if Alistair was made king and the PC decides he/she has had enough and is buggering off for Orzammar or wherever, do you think Alistair would have the Warden executed?  He would be extremely disappointed, yes, but if the basis was a severe disagreement, I think he would leave it on the level of personal disappointment and just get on with things.  Of course, this is probably why someone like KoP would say that he's a bad leader, whereas to me it shows that he's the better person than Anora.

I agree with you. Personally I think it´s unjust to kill Alistair, and I didn´t even do it when he was at 100 hostile.

However, this doesn´t change the fact that executing deserters was common, sad as it might be.
And therefore you can´t accuse KoP for killing Alistair because he dared to disagree. He simply did what most Real-Life leaders would have done, too. You can, however, think he´s unnecessarily cruel.

Modifié par Tirigon, 06 juin 2010 - 09:29 .

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

So no. And that's not to mention that this is a time of peace and it's not desertion, as the PC is not necessarily part of Ferelden's army at that point.
 

Neither is Alistair.

[Sarah1281]

Addai67 wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

If there were a corresponding notion in the game as regards Grey Wardens after their Joining, or if Alistair were a knight in the crown's service or in fealty to some noble lord, I would agree that it's valid.  This is not the Black of the Song of Ice and Fire novels, for instance.  No one suggests the PC who leaves for Par Vollen or becomes a noble and sits back on their kiester is insubordinate and deserving of execution.

The PCs do it after the Blight is defeated. By experience, that means the next Blight is a few hundred years away, and the hero has earned some peace - at least until his calling.

Alistair deserts during a Blight. There´s a major difference.

It does make it worse, and legally wartime offenses are more grave than peacetime ones.  However, particularly as the Blight does not really end (as per Awakening), it doesn't make that much of a difference in reality.  All those Wardens running after Morrigan are off the reservation.

Flip the tables and ask yourself if Alistair was made king and the PC decides he/she has had enough and is buggering off for Orzammar or wherever, do you think Alistair would have the Warden executed?  He would be extremely disappointed, yes, but if the basis was a severe disagreement, I think he would leave it on the level of personal disappointment and just get on with things.  Of course, this is probably why someone like KoP would say that he's a bad leader, whereas to me it shows that he's the better person than Anora.

It's not desertion if you resign from the order and it's accepted. In peacetime, there are less of a need for Wardens and if you tell people you want to leave they are okay with it. You leave the order. Alistair says he's leaving right before all the armies go after the archdemon even though no one is okay with this. That's desertion. And Alistiar isn't even remotely disappointed if you don't stay with the Wardens as he doesn't really expect you to. And the fact that the Blight didn't end was unusual and unexpected. That Blight was over but the Awakened darkspawn no one knew about were still a threat. If you stay on as a Warden until the end of Awakening then you've set up the basis of the Order and the darkspawn are back in the Deep Roads so you just resign your post and move on, ,no desertion even remotely hinted at.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

So no. And that's not to mention that this is a time of peace and it's not desertion, as the PC is not necessarily part of Ferelden's army at that point.
 

Neither is Alistair.

But it's desertion in a time of war, during the middle of the Blight, from the PC that he deferred leadership to. Must I explain that pov again?

[Addai]

Sarah1281 wrote...
 It's not desertion if you resign from the order and it's accepted. In peacetime, there are less of a need for Wardens and if you tell people you want to leave they are okay with it. You leave the order. Alistair says he's leaving right before all the armies go after the archdemon even though no one is okay with this. That's desertion. 

Based on what Riordan says if you mention Loghain's lack of loyalty to the Wardens, the Grey Wardens do not practice this kind of military discipline.

[Tirigon]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

But it's desertion in a time of war, during the middle of the Blight, from the PC that he deferred leadership to. Must I explain that pov again?

In the end it comes down to what you think should be done with deserters. Many people - you obviously among them - think deserters should be punished.

Some like me think you shouldn´t force people to do things they don´t want to do, so if Alistair wishes to leave I´ll point him to the door and move on.



The fact that he DID desert is undisputable, imo.

[phaonica]

Addai67 wrote...


??  You're accusing Alistair of poor form for arguing with your PC in the Landsmeet (even though that's what the Landsmeet is for).  Apparently he's just supposed to shut up.  He's only claimant to the throne and your fellow Grey Warden, but somehow voicing his opinion is "unacceptable."

Voicing his opinion is not unacceptable. Putting forth a counter argument is not unacceptable. Threatening me, and telling me he will leave if I don't do what he says, is. He could threaten me anywhere except the Landsmeet and I would let it slide.

[sabreene]

I really think it comes down to the way you see people in real life, and the way you choose to RP. One side isn't really any more valid than the other side.



In a moment of human frailty Alistair makes a poor decision based on his emotions. Everyone, great or small, has some button that can be pushed to set them off emotionally, where rational decision-making flies out the window. For Alistair, this button is Loghain. If he's not executed, he becomes a drunkard -- from which we can gather he deeply regrets and hates himself for that decision. It was poor decision, made in haste and anger, and when he came to realize that it was too late.



Does this make him a unworthy of redemption -- it depends on your character. If you don't believe in second chances, or if the mistake is too big or too drastic for you to respect him again, then yes. If your character can condemn the action, but not condemn the man, then no. People do bad, stupid things. Sometimes we forgive them, sometimes we don't.



Does it mean his worthy of execution? Again, depends on your character and the way you're playing. If in your PC's mind it is desertion, and any desertion results in death, then yes, I can see why people let him be killed. This really depends on whether or not you feel you have the right to choose that, neither side is wrong. No one has explained the rules of Grey Wardens very clearly to the PC, so as a character you're pretty free to determine what you think is correct. I usually give him the benefit of the doubt, hoping he would come back and fight. Of course, he doesn't regret it until too late.