965 réponses à ce sujet

[Tirigon]

Caladhiel wrote...

So it's better to kill him off right away, because there's no hope at all anyway? How about if you, Riordan and Loghain get killed off on your way through the city by one of the Generals? In that case, wouldn't it be better for the whole of Ferelden if there was at least ONE other GW in close vicinity rather than none? Of course Alistair's chances are slim, but eliminating even the smallest chance before anything is decided is simply rash. If you are so bent on punishing him, why not have him imprisoned and executed after the battle? Of course you don't have that option ingame, but still: killing him at that stage is just so... pointless. I thought you have to defeat the Blight at all costs - killing one of the remaining GWs is not something I would consider bringing me closer to that goal. I would always prefer a deserter Warden who might still come to his senses sooner or later rather than a dead one, as slim as his chances of success may be.

An interesting point of view. I admit I never thought about this argument to spare Alistair. It seems so impossible that you can failB)

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

So no. And that's not to mention that this is a time of peace and it's not desertion, as the PC is not necessarily part of Ferelden's army at that point.
 

Neither is Alistair.

But it's desertion in a time of war, during the middle of the Blight, from the PC that he deferred leadership to. Must I explain that pov again?

No, but once again, I see it as usurpation of a power that you do not by rights have.  Alistair has not sworn fealty to your PC personally, or to the crown of Ferelden as knight in service.  The Grey Wardens do not have this type of military organization from what we can see in the game or the books.

I realize that this is how you roleplay it.  Fair enough.  But to my mind (as should be clear ad nauseum), so long as you try to frame this in terms of right vs. an exercise of naked power, it's based on a view of the situation not supported in the game.

[Sarah1281]

Addai67 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
 It's not desertion if you resign from the order and it's accepted. In peacetime, there are less of a need for Wardens and if you tell people you want to leave they are okay with it. You leave the order. Alistair says he's leaving right before all the armies go after the archdemon even though no one is okay with this. That's desertion. 

Based on what Riordan says if you mention Loghain's lack of loyalty to the Wardens, the Grey Wardens do not practice this kind of military discipline.

And that's the point of contention: are the GW structured enough that they have a policy with dealing with people who, if they left another order, would be considered deserters? Duncan certainly killed Jory for the possibility of deserting instead of forcing him to drink and then letting him go on his merry way if he lived.

[Addai]

phaonica wrote...

Voicing his opinion is not unacceptable. Putting forth a counter argument is not unacceptable. Threatening me, and telling me he will leave if I don't do what he says, is. He could threaten me anywhere except the Landsmeet and I would let it slide.

How does he threaten you?

[Tirigon]

sabreene wrote...

Does this make him a unworthy of redemption -- it depends on your character. If you don't believe in second chances, or if the mistake is too big or too drastic for you to respect him again, then yes. If your character can condemn the action, but not condemn the man, then no. People do bad, stupid things. Sometimes we forgive them, sometimes we don't.

If you don´t believe in second chances you´ll kill Loghain immediately and not even reach this point:police:

[KnightofPhoenix]

Caladhiel wrote...
So it's better to kill him off right away, because there's no hope at all anyway? How about if you, Riordan and Loghain get killed off on your way through the city by one of the Generals? In that case, wouldn't it be better for the whole of Ferelden if there was at least ONE other GW in close vicinity rather than none? Of course Alistair's chances are slim, but eliminating even the smallest chance before anything is decided is simply rash.

You are assuming that he is in close vicinity to make a difference, while he was nowhere in sight near Denerim (unless you aer saying that he actually saw the horde moving to Denerim, and he still didn't do anything).
He would not have made any difference at all. He had no army. Why expect him to be able to win or make any difference if you and your entire army is decimated?
 

Caladhiel wrote...
If you are so bent on punishing him, why not have him imprisoned and executed after the battle? Of course you don't have that option ingame, but still: killing him at that stage is just so... pointless. I thought you have to defeat the Blight at all costs - killing one of the remaining GWs is not something I would consider bringing me closer to that goal. I would always prefer a deserter Warden who might still come to his senses sooner or later rather than a dead one, as slim as his chances of success may be.

That's a good point and I already said. Had I the choice, I would have imprisonned him and slapped some sense into him until he sees reason. I would not have killed him had I the choice.

But if confronted with either letting him desert, or execute him? I would execute him.

[Tirigon]

Addai67 wrote...

No, but once again, I see it as usurpation of a power that you do not by rights have.  Alistair has not sworn fealty to your PC personally, or to the crown of Ferelden as knight in service.  The Grey Wardens do not have this type of military organization from what we can see in the game or the books.

The Grey Wardens may not have the right to execute deserters, a General does. And the PC is the Commander of the forces he / she assembled.

[Sarah1281]

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

So no. And that's not to mention that this is a time of peace and it's not desertion, as the PC is not necessarily part of Ferelden's army at that point.
 

Neither is Alistair.

But it's desertion in a time of war, during the middle of the Blight, from the PC that he deferred leadership to. Must I explain that pov again?

No, but once again, I see it as usurpation of a power that you do not by rights have.  Alistair has not sworn fealty to your PC personally, or to the crown of Ferelden as knight in service.  The Grey Wardens do not have this type of military organization from what we can see in the game or the books.

I realize that this is how you roleplay it.  Fair enough.  But to my mind (as should be clear ad nauseum), so long as you try to frame this in terms of right vs. an exercise of naked power, it's based on a view of the situation not supported in the game.

So you're seeing the GW as a volunteer organization who can leave at any point in time no matter how important it is because they have no obligations outside of their own sense of duty and desire to help? 

[Addai]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
 It's not desertion if you resign from the order and it's accepted. In peacetime, there are less of a need for Wardens and if you tell people you want to leave they are okay with it. You leave the order. Alistair says he's leaving right before all the armies go after the archdemon even though no one is okay with this. That's desertion. 

Based on what Riordan says if you mention Loghain's lack of loyalty to the Wardens, the Grey Wardens do not practice this kind of military discipline.

And that's the point of contention: are the GW structured enough that they have a policy with dealing with people who, if they left another order, would be considered deserters? Duncan certainly killed Jory for the possibility of deserting instead of forcing him to drink and then letting him go on his merry way if he lived.

We've established upthread, however, that this is prior to the Joining.  If someone can supply an example of a Grey Warden executed for desertion after the Joining, I would weigh it.

[Asdara]

Tirigon wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

But it's desertion in a time of war, during the middle of the Blight, from the PC that he deferred leadership to. Must I explain that pov again?

In the end it comes down to what you think should be done with deserters. Many people - you obviously among them - think deserters should be punished.

Some like me think you shouldn´t force people to do things they don´t want to do, so if Alistair wishes to leave I´ll point him to the door and move on.



The fact that he DID desert is undisputable, imo.

I wonder if Duncan, and by extrapolation the Grey Wardens, think that people shouldn't be forced to do things they don't want to do - like become Grey Wardens - while Jory's blood is pooling around his boots and he pushes the cup into our hands.  It seems like the ideas and values of the game are full of fun contradictions when it comes to this issue - particularly in Alistair who is, in all non-choice between him and Loghain scenarios, practically the soul of duty and obligation.  It seems very out of character for him to be so adamantly standing against this most important of all obligations in this one and only instance that I think we're all, as players, left grabbing at possible reasons in the dark.  

[Sarah1281]

Asdara wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

But it's desertion in a time of war, during the middle of the Blight, from the PC that he deferred leadership to. Must I explain that pov again?

In the end it comes down to what you think should be done with deserters. Many people - you obviously among them - think deserters should be punished.

Some like me think you shouldn´t force people to do things they don´t want to do, so if Alistair wishes to leave I´ll point him to the door and move on.



The fact that he DID desert is undisputable, imo.

I wonder if Duncan, and by extrapolation the Grey Wardens, think that people shouldn't be forced to do things they don't want to do - like become Grey Wardens - while Jory's blood is pooling around his boots and he pushes the cup into our hands.  It seems like the ideas and values of the game are full of fun contradictions when it comes to this issue - particularly in Alistair who is, in all non-choice between him and Loghain scenarios, practically the soul of duty and obligation.  It seems very out of character for him to be so adamantly standing against this most important of all obligations in this one and only instance that I think we're all, as players, left grabbing at possible reasons in the dark.  

I doubt it. I mean, they can conscript you which, even if it does have the handy side-effect of saving your life if you're about to be executed, also forces you to be a GW.

[Addai]

Sarah1281 wrote...
 So you're seeing the GW as a volunteer organization who can leave at any point in time no matter how important it is because they have no obligations outside of their own sense of duty and desire to help? 

As Riordan says, this type of military structure with oaths of fealty and such is not necessary.  The taint enforces loyalty on its own.  The darkspawn will find you, and then you'll either fight or die.  So simply by making someone "submit to the taint," the GWs create a darkspawn fighter.

I find it a pretty underhanded tactic, myself.  You keep the Joining a secret so people won't know what they're in for until it's too late to make any difference.

Modifié par Addai67, 06 juin 2010 - 09:41 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
I realize that this is how you roleplay it.  Fair enough.  But to my mind (as should be clear ad nauseum), so long as you try to frame this in terms of right vs. an exercise of naked power, it's based on a view of the situation not supported in the game.

Here we go again. I am tired of repeating myself. Believe what you will. I at least have the courtesy to say that your position is valid and not arrogantly assume that "it's not supported by the game".

But ok fair enough. Good for you. You play exactly how the game tells you to. And I bent the game to my will and excercize naked raw power because it's an erotic fantasy of mine to kill those who disagree with me, even if the game is not supposed to allow me to do this.

[KnightofPhoenix]

sabreene wrote...

I really think it comes down to the way you see people in real life, and the way you choose to RP. One side isn't really any more valid than the other side.

Yes, great post. Thank you.
 
That's what I call good discussion material. And not just reject the position of others becaue apprently, "they are not supported in the game".

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Here we go again. I am tired of repeating myself. Believe what you will. I at least have the courtesy to say that your position is valid and not arrogantly assume that "it's not supported by the game".
 

It would be discourteous of me to tell you I agree with you when I don't.

Peace.

[phaonica]

Addai67 wrote...

phaonica wrote...

Voicing his opinion is not unacceptable. Putting forth a counter argument is not unacceptable. Threatening me, and telling me he will leave if I don't do what he says, is. He could threaten me anywhere except the Landsmeet and I would let it slide.

How does he threaten you?

He threatens to leave. He gave me an ultimatum. And to me, letting someone bully me around like that makes me look weak in front of the Landsmeet. Make it out to be trying to save my own reputation, if you want, but having the confidence and support of the Landsmeet is important.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

sabreene wrote...

I really think it comes down to the way you see people in real life, and the way you choose to RP. One side isn't really any more valid than the other side.

Yes, great post. Thank you.
 
That's what I call good discussion material. And not just reject the position of others becaue apprently, "they are not supported in the game".

I realize you feel insulted, and I'm sorry for that.  But arguing over what the game and book material supports and what it doesn't is the very essence of the forum.

[phaonica]

sabreene wrote...

I really think it comes down to the way you see people in real life, and the way you choose to RP. One side isn't really any more valid than the other side.

Nice post, sabreene, well done

[Tirigon]

Asdara wrote...


I wonder if Duncan, and by extrapolation the Grey Wardens, think that people shouldn't be forced to do things they don't want to do - like become Grey Wardens - while Jory's blood is pooling around his boots and he pushes the cup into our hands.  It seems like the ideas and values of the game are full of fun contradictions when it comes to this issue - particularly in Alistair who is, in all non-choice between him and Loghain scenarios, practically the soul of duty and obligation.  It seems very out of character for him to be so adamantly standing against this most important of all obligations in this one and only instance that I think we're all, as players, left grabbing at possible reasons in the dark.  

The Wardens force people all the time. But the player is not forced to agree with this policy. My pcs are grateful to Duncan for saving them, but still think killing Jory is a totally unneceesary murder and Duncan acts like an ass when he does so.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Here we go again. I am tired of repeating myself. Believe what you will. I at least have the courtesy to say that your position is valid and not arrogantly assume that "it's not supported by the game".
 

It would be discourteous of me to tell you I agree with you when I don't.

Peace.

I am not asking you to agree with me. But I would prefer if you at least see my position as valid and not just a tyranical use of power with absolutely no valid reason, just because I feel like killing him.

Of course at the end, it won't matter at all and I won't lose sleep over it. But the difference between a healthy and fun discussion and a pointless argument is based on small details like this.

[Addai]

phaonica wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

phaonica wrote...

Voicing his opinion is not unacceptable. Putting forth a counter argument is not unacceptable. Threatening me, and telling me he will leave if I don't do what he says, is. He could threaten me anywhere except the Landsmeet and I would let it slide.

How does he threaten you?

He threatens to leave. He gave me an ultimatum. And to me, letting someone bully me around like that makes me look weak in front of the Landsmeet. Make it out to be trying to save my own reputation, if you want, but having the confidence and support of the Landsmeet is important.

So you take him out because he is a challenge to your power.  This is an argument that makes sense, and I can understand it as rationale for executing him.  Might wins.

[Asdara]

phaonica wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

phaonica wrote...

Voicing his opinion is not unacceptable. Putting forth a counter argument is not unacceptable. Threatening me, and telling me he will leave if I don't do what he says, is. He could threaten me anywhere except the Landsmeet and I would let it slide.

How does he threaten you?

He threatens to leave. He gave me an ultimatum. And to me, letting someone bully me around like that makes me look weak in front of the Landsmeet. Make it out to be trying to save my own reputation, if you want, but having the confidence and support of the Landsmeet is important.

More than that he's basically mucking up the whole works of making this move forward to the point of actually being able to fight the Blight over a deeply personal issue with Loghain.  I mean, kill him after in an honor dual between the two of you after the archdemon is slain.  I'd completely allow that!  Go, knock yourselves out now that Ferelden is saved, but this moment needs a compromise and instead you are - for the first time ever - taking the extreme hardline position that will do nothing but appease your revenge and leave the Banns and other nobles reluctant to support our cause.  

I just can't express loudly enough how poorly done I thought this whole segment of the game was presented and executed.  Everything else I loved but this thing just jams itself right up in my mental craw for all its inconsistency and poor options of "resolution"