965 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

Caladhiel wrote...
Thing is, it's not the army that needs to be decimated for the war to be lost - it suffices if it's just the GW that jump the gun. If there was any noteworthy army left after the GWs had all fallen, I'd bet they'd take Alistair back with a kiss if he returned.^^ Of course, this is all hypothetical. All I know is that, were I in my PC's shoes and not knowing the outcome, I wouldn't kill him. As I said, chances of his succeeding are minimally slim, but I'd still prefer this teenie-weenie chance over an absolute no-goer.  
 

In my PC's mind, allowing Alistair to desert, which gives a teenie weenie chance of him doing something (for the sake of argument), is far lesser than the risk of the PC appearing weak in front of the whole landsmeet, not being worthy of being King Consort, and a message to the rest of the army that they too can leave if they want to. 

Also, in the Landsmeet, my PC had no idea why the Wardens are necessary. He didn't know that only Wardens can kill archdemons. So he can't use that logic as well.  

[phaonica]

Addai67 wrote...

phaonica wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

phaonica wrote...

Voicing his opinion is not unacceptable. Putting forth a counter argument is not unacceptable. Threatening me, and telling me he will leave if I don't do what he says, is. He could threaten me anywhere except the Landsmeet and I would let it slide.

How does he threaten you?

He threatens to leave. He gave me an ultimatum. And to me, letting someone bully me around like that makes me look weak in front of the Landsmeet. Make it out to be trying to save my own reputation, if you want, but having the confidence and support of the Landsmeet is important.

So you take him out because he is a challenge to your power.  This is an argument that makes sense, and I can understand it as rationale for executing him.  Might wins.

Exactly. Thankfully, he did back down because I would have hated to execute him myself. But I would have done it.

[Sarah1281]

Hanz54321 wrote...

This thread is my Frankenstein. 16 pages in 16 hours with a whole variety of topics covered. And here I expected a total fail.

I'm glad everyone is participating and enjoying.

Well with a title like that what else could happen? Although several people are avoiding it because they think the title means you ranted about how childish you find Alistair.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Here we go again. I am tired of repeating myself. Believe what you will. I at least have the courtesy to say that your position is valid and not arrogantly assume that "it's not supported by the game".
 

It would be discourteous of me to tell you I agree with you when I don't.

Peace.

I am not asking you to agree with me. But I would prefer if you at least see my position as valid and not just a tyranical use of power with absolutely no valid reason, just because I feel like killing him.

Of course at the end, it won't matter at all and I won't lose sleep over it. But the difference between a healthy and fun discussion and a pointless argument is based on small details like this.

I'm sorry, I'm just not convinced.  Should I say that I am when I'm not?  I don't see it as you "feeling like" killing him, BTW.  Don't think I've ever said that.

I agree that it's a bit head-banging, though I still think it's a good debate.

[KnightofPhoenix]

The reason I did not execute him as a challenger of my power is because my PC sees him as too weak and insignificant to be a threat to his power. So he wouldn't kill him for that, and I think it's slightly unfair. Granted, he was unhardened at that point.

The primary reason is his desertion. But that's me.

[Xandurpein]

@at Sabrenee. Great post. I couldn't agree more.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

I'm sorry, I'm just not convinced. 

Ok, fair enough.

[phaonica]

Asdara wrote...

phaonica wrote...

He threatens to leave. He gave me an ultimatum. And to me, letting someone bully me around like that makes me look weak in front of the Landsmeet. Make it out to be trying to save my own reputation, if you want, but having the confidence and support of the Landsmeet is important.

More than that he's basically mucking up the whole works of making this move forward to the point of actually being able to fight the Blight over a deeply personal issue with Loghain.  I mean, kill him after in an honor dual between the two of you after the archdemon is slain.  I'd completely allow that!  Go, knock yourselves out now that Ferelden is saved, but this moment needs a compromise and instead you are - for the first time ever - taking the extreme hardline position that will do nothing but appease your revenge and leave the Banns and other nobles reluctant to support our cause.  

Agreed. I didn't think that sparing Loghain was an unreasonable risk, but then Alistair purposefully tried to turn it into one.

I just can't express loudly enough how poorly done I thought this whole segment of the game was presented and executed.  Everything else I loved but this thing just jams itself right up in my mental craw for all its inconsistency and poor options of "resolution" 

Nah, I'm cool with it for the most part. It's one of the few parts of the game that has real consequences sometime before the epilogue slides.

[phaonica]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The reason I did not execute him as a challenger of my power is because my PC sees him as too weak and insignificant to be a threat to his power. So he wouldn't kill him for that, and I think it's slightly unfair. Granted, he was unhardened at that point.
The primary reason is his desertion. But that's me.

I would not have seen him as a threat anywhere except the Landsmeet, at that exact moment when I was trying to prove my worth as a strong commander for the Ferelden armies.

[Asdara]

I just wanted about 10 more dialog options for every part of that. Things like "We can deal with this after the archdemon is dead" and "Look, you didn't want to be King now you do, make up your damn mind" and "I'm really tired of explaining these things to you, we'll kill him later ok?"



I mean... I can convince him to have a demon baby heir running around the countryside with the women he hates the most in the world for a mommy - but fighting next to the Hero of Riverdane for a week/a month whatever just to end the Blight already and make all this we've been doing worthwhile is so far out of the question because he made a tactical decision (or a political one, it really doesn't matter in the end) that left Duncan to die on a field that was in all likelihood un-winable anyway? *Gnashing of teeth and banging of head on desk*



... sorry - I'm ok now. Where are my meds?

[KnightofPhoenix]

phaonica wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The reason I did not execute him as a challenger of my power is because my PC sees him as too weak and insignificant to be a threat to his power. So he wouldn't kill him for that, and I think it's slightly unfair. Granted, he was unhardened at that point.
The primary reason is his desertion. But that's me.

I would not have seen him as a threat anywhere except the Landsmeet, at that exact moment when I was trying to prove my worth as a strong commander for the Ferelden armies.

The way I see it, it's Alistair's desertion / threat of desertion that is a threat to my position. Not Alistair himself perse.
 
But I think we have a slightly different argment here? Your number one issue with him is him dsiagreeing with you?
For me, it's his desertion. I wouldn't really care if he agrees with me or not, as long as he doesn't desert.

[thegreateski]

Hanz54321 wrote...

thegreateski wrote...

I believe that you would get more of a discussion in the Alistair thread.

I also believe that a person's upbringing is not an excuse for the way they act.

You really think you'd be the same person you are today if you had been taught different values, if you had been born in poverty instead of middle class, or if you had been born rich instead of poor.  Or say you'd been permanently disabled.  You don't think you would see the world differently?

I'm going to ignore your . . . jerkiness

A whiner is still a whiner no matter what his background.
That said . . . I like Alistair. We've got a hetrosexual life partners thing going on.


He's still a whiner though.

Modifié par thegreateski, 06 juin 2010 - 10:12 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Caladhiel wrote...
My PC knows only one thing: the Blight must be stopped at all costs, and GWs are crucial to accomplishing that goal (that the reason is not known is of no real importance, as it has been stated multiple times that Blights can definitely not be defeated without GWs).

No, it is not stated. The stories merely say that the Wardens are necessary. But my PC is a very cynical and critical man, he doesn't just accept things for granted. If he doesn't know why and how, he dismisses it as exagerration.
He knows about the taint and how it makes him feel the archdemon and he thought that gave the GW an advantage. But there is no way he could have really known that only a GW can kill an archdemon.

Caladhiel wrote...
Meaning that I would worry about my image in the Landsmeet and my chances of becoming a leading politician after I survived the battle. As for the army deserting... I couldn't really say. I guess I hope most people think like Daveth rather than Jory.^^ But decimating my numbers in any way before the battle is counter-productive, IMO.

The thing is, the Landsmeet is virtually the beginning of my PC's rule as King Consort. He either starts "correctly" or he doesn't and that would have an impact on his future rule. Granted, he might have though a bit too much about this issue, as at the end, sparing Alistair does not harm your position. But my PC is calculating and he cannot abide by any show of weakness.

As for people being more like Daveth. Hehe cute. I think my PC, especially after seeing Alistair do this which he did not expect (abandonning Ferelden), would have a cynical view of the others.
And "decimate" is too strong a word. Both literally (1/10 of the army doesn't go away if Alistair is executed) and figuratively.  Like I said, the way my PC saw it is that allowing desertion might make more soldiers do the same.

Caladhiel wrote...
But that's the whole fun of these discussions, isn't it? I find it fascinating the way this game can be interpreted in so many different ways!

Indeed, and rare has any game been so open to interpretation. And I think that's because there is no morality meter like other games.

Despite the fact that ME1 and 2 had very complex and hard choices, that complexity is washed away with the morality meter and I hate it.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 06 juin 2010 - 10:17 .

[phaonica]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The way I see it, it's Alistair's desertion / threat of desertion that is a threat to my position. Not Alistair himself perse.
 
But I think we have a slightly different argment here? Your number one issue with him is him dsiagreeing with you?
For me, it's his desertion. I wouldn't really care if he agrees with me or not, as long as he doesn't desert.

I wouldn't say that my issue was his disagreeing with me, and I wouldn't say my issue was his desertion, either.

I guess my issue was that he was a threat to my perceived authority in front of the Landsmeet. He threatened to leave and he also made a grab for the crown, trying to go over my head. He did eventually back down, and I didn't feel like I needed to execute him for desertion in order to send a stronger message of my authority. If you did, however, I see that as a valid position.

[KnightofPhoenix]

phaonica wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The way I see it, it's Alistair's desertion / threat of desertion that is a threat to my position. Not Alistair himself perse.
 
But I think we have a slightly different argment here? Your number one issue with him is him dsiagreeing with you?
For me, it's his desertion. I wouldn't really care if he agrees with me or not, as long as he doesn't desert.

I wouldn't say that my issue was his disagreeing with me, and I wouldn't say my issue was his desertion, either.

I guess my issue was that he was a threat to my perceived authority in front of the Landsmeet. He threatened to leave and he also made a grab for the crown, trying to go over my head. He did eventually back down, and I didn't feel like I needed to execute him for desertion in order to send a stronger message of my authority. If you did, however, I see that as a valid position.

Yes his bid for the throne, out of nowhere, can be seen as a threat and that is also a valid position.

For me, and no joke, it generated a chuckle. I didn't take it seriously. I saw it as stupid, but it's the funny not so serious kind of stupid. 

[Tirigon]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Despite the fact that ME1 and 2 had very complex and hard choices, that complexity is washed away with the morality meter and I hate it.

I agree. Some greater power judging whether you´re good or bad by a blue or red score sucks badly.

[phaonica]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

phaonica wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The way I see it, it's Alistair's desertion / threat of desertion that is a threat to my position. Not Alistair himself perse.
 
But I think we have a slightly different argment here? Your number one issue with him is him dsiagreeing with you?
For me, it's his desertion. I wouldn't really care if he agrees with me or not, as long as he doesn't desert.

I wouldn't say that my issue was his disagreeing with me, and I wouldn't say my issue was his desertion, either.

I guess my issue was that he was a threat to my perceived authority in front of the Landsmeet. He threatened to leave and he also made a grab for the crown, trying to go over my head. He did eventually back down, and I didn't feel like I needed to execute him for desertion in order to send a stronger message of my authority. If you did, however, I see that as a valid position.

Yes his bid for the throne, out of nowhere, can be seen as a threat and that is also a valid position.

For me, and no joke, it generated a chuckle. I didn't take it seriously. I saw it as stupid, but it's the funny not so serious kind of stupid. 

Well, if I'm the one holding the crown... yeah it was a little silly. Especially since I had, up until that point, supported him for the throne. I probably gave the crown to Anora in spite at that point... which is really bad... but I'm willing to accept that it might be true. She was a smarter manipulator, anyways, which I don't think is always a bad thing (sometimes, but not always).

Edit: I misspoke. It wasn't purely spite, that would be stupid. But I would be lying if I didn't say a little spite didn't influence the decision.

Modifié par phaonica, 06 juin 2010 - 10:44 .

[phaonica]

Tirigon wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Despite the fact that ME1 and 2 had very complex and hard choices, that complexity is washed away with the morality meter and I hate it.

I agree. Some greater power judging whether you´re good or bad by a blue or red score sucks badly.

Yeah! "How dare you judge me!"

[KnightofPhoenix]

Tirigon wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Despite the fact that ME1 and 2 had very complex and hard choices, that complexity is washed away with the morality meter and I hate it.

I agree. Some greater power judging whether you´re good or bad by a blue or red score sucks badly.

Or suns changing color for no reason apparently indicates your morality.

I don't know, but if an orange sun suddenly goes blue...I would think something is terribly wrong.

[LadyDamodred]

*has just finished catching up and hunts for some bandages to bind her bleeding eyes with*



Sweet jesus, do I really want to step into this?

[Tirigon]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Or suns changing color for no reason apparently indicates your morality.

I don't know, but if an orange sun suddenly goes blue...I would think something is terribly wrong.

I wouldn´t mind THAT, though. Atm it´s way too hot where I live, and a blue sun might make the temperature more comfortable^^

[LadyDamodred]

Tirigon wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Or suns changing color for no reason apparently indicates your morality.

I don't know, but if an orange sun suddenly goes blue...I would think something is terribly wrong.

I wouldn´t mind THAT, though. Atm it´s way too hot where I live, and a blue sun might make the temperature more comfortable^^

OT:  Blue stars are hotter, so I don't think it would help. 

*looks at her sig*  Is it my sacred duty to wade into this fracas?

*looks at KoP*  Hold me!

[KnightofPhoenix]

Caladhiel wrote...
Ah, our characters are different to the core - I suspected as much.  I always took what Duncan told me for granted - it would shed a rather dissapointing light on the whole Joining ritual and GW status if I didn't. And my PCs mostly aren't power-hungry.^^ And I see that my PC seems to have more trust in the good side of human nature. If that trust is well-placed, on the other hand, is an entirely different discussion altogether.^^ I guess I have more faith in the belief that most people would actually stand up and fight for their homeland instead of turning their backs on it in a crucial moment like this. 

Yes, they are different. And I don't think one is better than the other. I also made a character like this, who is more of an idealist, and I did enjoy playing as him. He is just not my Canon Warden (whom I base on myself mostly).

The way I RP it, my PC, Arcturus Cousland, trusted Howe and look where that got him. So yes, he is a little low when it comes to trust. That doesn't mean he doesn't trust at all, as he did trust Morrigan with the DR and he did trust Loghain at the Landsmeet. But he isn't generous with that trust, yes. People have to earn it and the trust Alistair once had is forfeit after what he did.

AND, it's not "power-hungry". Just ambitious.
 Well I guess it depends on perspective, but I would say Arcturus is definately ambitious.