965 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

LadyDamodred wrote...
*looks at her sig*  Is it my sacred duty to wade into this fracas?

*looks at KoP*  Hold me!

Wouldn't it be your sacred duty to argue against me?
Or do you not mind my position?

If so, *holds you*!

[Merilsell]

LadyDamodred wrote...

*has just finished catching up and hunts for some bandages to bind her bleeding eyes with*

Sweet jesus, do I really want to step into this?

No you don't want. Believe me. But I have popcorn and I'm willing to share. This thread is like an car accident...I KNOW I shouldn't watch....but I can't look away either...

Oh well, guess I have to make the best of it then

[Sarah1281]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Despite the fact that ME1 and 2 had very complex and hard choices, that complexity is washed away with the morality meter and I hate it.

I agree. Some greater power judging whether you´re good or bad by a blue or red score sucks badly.

Or suns changing color for no reason apparently indicates your morality.

I don't know, but if an orange sun suddenly goes blue...I would think something is terribly wrong.

It's not even accurate, either. I got +17 Renegade points for saving the Base which brought my total up to about 40 compared to my 100 Paragon points. How does that mean I finished the game as a more Renegade character? 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sarah1281 wrote...
It's not even accurate, either. I got +17 Renegade points for saving the Base which brought my total up to about 40 compared to my 100 Paragon points. How does that mean I finished the game as a more Renegade character? 

Yea I don't know how it works. But I have seen variations of the "spare the base" ending.
In my balanced (slightly more Paragon than renegade) playthrough, the sun is orange exactly like it was throughout the game (hence why I think that's the best ending. Suns are not supposed to change color that fast).
On my maximum renegade playthrough, the sun goes blood red.

I do not know if variations exist with the "destroy base" ending.

[Giggles_Manically]

The Sun goes bright blue if you are full paragon.
http://www.suntrek.o...olour-sun.shtml
It looks like the colour of a star really makes a big difference at least in temperature.

[phaonica]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The way I RP it, my PC, Arcturus Cousland, trusted Howe and look where that got him. So yes, he is a little low when it comes to trust. That doesn't mean he doesn't trust at all, as he did trust Morrigan with the DR and he did trust Loghain at the Landsmeet. But he isn't generous with that trust, yes. People have to earn it and the trust Alistair once had is forfeit after what he did.

AND, it's not "power-hungry". Just ambitious.
 Well I guess it depends on perspective, but I would say Arcturus is definately ambitious.

I wouldn't describe my character as ambitious. She only wants as much power as is required to do her job, nothing more. But she does take the responsibility of power and influence very seriously.

[LadyDamodred]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...
*looks at her sig*  Is it my sacred duty to wade into this fracas?

*looks at KoP*  Hold me!

Wouldn't it be your sacred duty to argue against me?
Or do you not mind my position?

If so, *holds you*!

Well, we have had our battles.  In fact, they look much like what has happened here.  I disagree with you, and vice-versa, but I think we each see and understand the other's position.

I don't know how closely people have followed the other debates and I do like to throw my two cents in.  I know some of these points have been mentioned by others, and even by myself in other threads, so here goes nothing.

What happens at the Landsmeet with Alistair can be seen many different ways.  The events are seen and interpreted through different lenses, as it were, depending on how you role-played your character.  (I assume people actually do role-play in a role-playing game.)  If you're spent the game being a d!ck to Alistair, it's very odd at how upset he gets.  That's a game limitation, I understand.  But if you've played a character that was in love with him, or his best friend, (both of which require seeing him as an equal, imo, since I don't think you can have relationships like that unless you do) then for you to suddenly recruit Loghain into the order is a betrayal of Alistair.  If you weren't that close to Alistair, it is far less of a betrayal, or not even one at all, again, depending on how you rp'd it.

For myself, my characters are either in love with Alistair or his best friend.  My characters also remember that Loghain has spent the whole year leading up to this moment actively trying to kill them.  That's a really big strike against him, in addition to everything else he had done.  They have no reason to trust Loghain, so when it comes down to choosing between Alistair and Loghain, there really is no choice.

Someone mentioned earlier, that what if you were a Cousland and someone suggested Howe be a Warden, would you really just leave.  I have answered that other places, and I will answer it here.  The character is very much like me, and there are some things that are unforgivable.  What Howe did was one of them.  So if positions were reversed, and the man she loves suggested doing that, it's horrifying to her.  And for him to insist on doing it over her objections is a deal breaker.  She would have been done.  It would have been mentally and emotionally devastating and there was no way she would have stayed for that.  There is literally no argument Alistair could have given her to convince her to fight by Howe's side.  The same holds true for Alistair and Loghain.  Would she have stayed and found somewhere else to fight?  Probably not.  She would have had nothing else at that moment, and she would have been consumed with absolute fury and betrayal.  It is very hard to see and think logically in that situation.  Judge her, and I, as you will, but it is a very human thing to do, and I think very understandable.

And while I know this is also a game mechanic, I think it is interesting that if Alistair is the one to fight Loghain, Riordan doesn't even try to stay his hand.  From an rp perspective, I find that telling.  Riordan knows that what is between Alistair and Loghain cannot be resolved, except by blood, and he accepts it.  Even when Riordan attempts to stay your hand, and you immediately say no, he aquiesces without a fight.  While he wants more Wardens, he is also perfectly fine with the knowledge that neither you or Alistair can accept it.

I apologize for any repeated arguments I've dragged up, but I lvoe a good debate.  Also, I felt it part of my sacred duty to at least say something. 

[Sarah1281]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

The Sun goes bright blue if you are full paragon.
http://www.suntrek.o...olour-sun.shtml
It looks like the colour of a star really makes a big difference at least in temperature.

Unless you're a full Paragon that kept the base like with what happened to me. I still somehow ended up giving the Illusive Man the speech about not getting in my way, which was kind of funny. I did like TIM's line about how it wasn't that easy to just do the right thing which was partly why I gave it to him.

[KnightofPhoenix]

LadyDamodred wrote...
Well, we have had our battles.  In fact, they look much like what has happened here.  I disagree with you, and vice-versa, but I think we each see and understand the other's position.

I wouldn't call them battles. I htink we end up agreeing more than disagreeing. But maybe that's just me being uncharacteristically optimistic.

LadyDamodred wrote...
What happens at the Landsmeet with Alistair can be seen many different ways.  The events are seen and interpreted through different lenses, as it were, depending on how you role-played your character.  (I assume people actually do role-play in a role-playing game.)  If you're spent the game being a d!ck to Alistair, it's very odd at how upset he gets.  That's a game limitation, I understand.  But if you've played a character that was in love with him, or his best friend, (both of which require seeing him as an equal, imo, since I don't think you can have relationships like that unless you do) then for you to suddenly recruit Loghain into the order is a betrayal of Alistair.  If you weren't that close to Alistair, it is far less of a betrayal, or not even one at all, again, depending on how you rp'd it.

Indeed, and I would have a hard time having the position I have in my Canon playthrough, if I considered Alistair a very close friend or a lover (I was still not a dick to him. Just not that close). I mean I can understand people doing exactly what I did, despite very close friendship or romance, simply out of principle. But I am not sure I would do that. I never tried or thought about it anyways.

But that's a great post LD, and I don't really disagree with anything. Most of our positions are based on perspective.
To assume that the game favors or only accepts one valid perspective, is really failing to see the meaning of an RPG, in my honest and humble opinion.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 06 juin 2010 - 11:20 .

[Asdara]

I have, since my first game, always avoided this by having Alastair fight Loghain so that I didn't have to deal with all these really upsetting issues. Also, having played all female wardens I have played love for Alistair pretty much exclusively with the one exception of having been with Zevran once - but BFF with Alistair at the same time. (She was Dalish and against the whole elf-human unions idea).



I did, once, play through with my Human Noble Female fighting and killing Loghain herself after failing to convince Alistair to come around to the idea of his help, not wanting to lose him and dealt with all of these decisions, but it was so painful that I loaded a previous save and just did it over without that again.



My boyfriend had a male warden who killed Alastair to take Loghain at my behest so I could see how that goes, but he refused to play after that "boredom" he claimed, so I never really found out what I wanted to about Loghain.



So, I can kind of see both sides of the idea - I can as a player anyway. My character's have not had the insight to it that I have had from reading and watching vids and stuff. It's just so hard to know what the right thing is for which warden in which situation sometimes with this decision that it is (obviously) highly debatable and interesting.

[Sarah1281]

I did, once, play through with my Human Noble Female fighting and killing Loghain herself after failing to convince Alistair to come around to the idea of his help, not wanting to lose him and dealt with all of these decisions, but it was so painful that I loaded a previous save and just did it over without that again.

I really dislike that RP choice in general. If you feel that he's that useful and sparing him is a good idea why should somebody else disagreeing change your mind? That's basically turning the decision of whether you are going to spare Loghain into 'sorry, Loghain, but I don't want to make Alistair mad at me so I'm going to murder you in front of your daughter' which is, to me, the weakest possible justification to do so.

[Kryyptehk]

So, I decided I really can't let a topic go without putting in my two cents. And they are as followed (I also posted this in another thread)





I'll tell you what that whole argument boils down to. Who you like more, Alistair or Loghain. If you like Loghain, you are gonna come up with every excuse in the book as to why he's right and Alistair is wrong. At the same time, people who like Alistair are going to say that there is no way that Loghain should survive. Hence why I do not get into that argument, because there is literally no way to dissuade either person.



And you can talk about how you always roleplay your character until your face turns blue, but how you personally feel about a character matters. I'll make up excuses to romance Alistair because I don't like Zevran or Leliana's romances. It may make sense for my character (at least to me) but it was my personal feelings that swayed my decision.

[LadyDamodred]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...
Well, we have had our battles.  In fact, they look much like what has happened here.  I disagree with you, and vice-versa, but I think we each see and understand the other's position.

I wouldn't call them battles. I htink we ned up agreeing more than disagreeing. But maybe that's just me being uncharacteristically optimistic.

You are correct, not battles.  Debates and discussions, yes.  But no actual fighting.  *laughs*  I think we've even had this particular chat before as well. 

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...
What happens at the Landsmeet with Alistair can be seen many different ways.  The events are seen and interpreted through different lenses, as it were, depending on how you role-played your character.  (I assume people actually do role-play in a role-playing game.)  If you're spent the game being a d!ck to Alistair, it's very odd at how upset he gets.  That's a game limitation, I understand.  But if you've played a character that was in love with him, or his best friend, (both of which require seeing him as an equal, imo, since I don't think you can have relationships like that unless you do) then for you to suddenly recruit Loghain into the order is a betrayal of Alistair.  If you weren't that close to Alistair, it is far less of a betrayal, or not even one at all, again, depending on how you rp'd it.

Indeed, and I would have a hard time having the position I have, if I considered Alistair a very close friend or a lover (I was still nto a dick to him. Just not that close). I mean I can understand people doing exactly what I did, despite very close friendship or romance, simply out of principle. But I am not sure I would do that. I never tried or thought about it anyways.

And I've never suggested you were a d!ck to him, nor would I.  I know that from what you've mentioned from your playthroughs, especially your canon one, that while you were not close to Alistair, you treated him as a comrade.  *coughs*  In fact, that very dynamic was my template for an Alistair execution story that shall never see the light of day.  You should be flattered. 

I truly do think if you rp a genuine, deep relationship with Alistair, that it is damn near impossible to justify siding with Loghain against him.  If others can offer very good reasons why a character in love with or best friends with Alistair would do that, I would love to hear them.  I know the terribleness we had to go through in the Alistair gush thread to create a valid rp story for a PC in love with Alistair to execute him, and I doubt very much many people play a character like that.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

But that's a great post LD, and I don't really disagree with anything. Most of our positions are based on perspective.
To assume that the game favors or only accepts one valid perspective, is really failing to see the meaning of an RPG, in my honest and humble opinion.

Thank you, and I concur. 

Also, I am really going to regret saying this, and I would love from someone to confirm this as a line that comes up in game and not just in the toolset.  But I have to be honest.  (I hope you appreciate this, KoP)  In the toolset, there is a line from Riordan that states you can be considered the Warden-Commander of Ferelden.  And before it sets off any 'Ha!  I do have the authority to execute Alistair!' arguments, I think there is a difference between being considered such and actually being given the role.  And furthermore, like others have said, I don't think the Wardens have a policy of executing people who leave.  Too much from the game/books leans in that direction for me, and so I would have to see definitive proof that they do before I even consider it as a rp rational.

Modifié par LadyDamodred, 06 juin 2010 - 11:31 .

[Asdara]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I did, once, play through with my Human Noble Female fighting and killing Loghain herself after failing to convince Alistair to come around to the idea of his help, not wanting to lose him and dealt with all of these decisions, but it was so painful that I loaded a previous save and just did it over without that again.

I really dislike that RP choice in general. If you feel that he's that useful and sparing him is a good idea why should somebody else disagreeing change your mind? That's basically turning the decision of whether you are going to spare Loghain into 'sorry, Loghain, but I don't want to make Alistair mad at me so I'm going to murder you in front of your daughter' which is, to me, the weakest possible justification to do so.

I agree.  Hence the re-play.  I didn't expect an opportunity to spare him to come up after I fought him, figured it would just be Alistair giving me the nod instead... but not the case.  So I listened to what Riordan had to say and then it got messy so - that's what multiple saves are for. 

[Sarah1281]

I'll tell you what that whole argument boils down to. Who you like more, Alistair or Loghain. If you like Loghain, you are gonna come up with every excuse in the book as to why he's right and Alistair is wrong. At the same time, people who like Alistair are going to say that there is no way that Loghain should survive. Hence why I do not get into that argument, because there is literally no way to dissuade either person.

That's trivializing the whole argument. What if you don't really like Loghain but have an obsessive saving people thing? You need to redeem Loghain in that case. What if you feel personally betrayed that Alistair is willing to walk away from everything because Loghain isn't dead? What if you believe that Loghain should be spared and really like Alistair but refuse to let his personal feelings force you to kill someone you didn't plan on? Some people probably decide based on who they like more but their opinion can also be colored by the actions here. If you really like Alistair all throughout the game and then his actions here turn you against him so he's lower in your estimation than Loghain, is it really fair to say that it was your great love for Loghain that made him a Warden?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Kryyptehk wrote...
I'll tell you what that whole argument boils down to. Who you like more, Alistair or Loghain. If you like Loghain, you are gonna come up with every excuse in the book as to why he's right and Alistair is wrong. At the same time, people who like Alistair are going to say that there is no way that Loghain should survive. Hence why I do not get into that argument, because there is literally no way to dissuade either person.

And you can talk about how you always roleplay your character until your face turns blue, but how you personally feel about a character matters. I'll make up excuses to romance Alistair because I don't like Zevran or Leliana's romances. It may make sense for my character (at least to me) but it was my personal feelings that swayed my decision.

A gross oversimplifcation.

When I first played the game, I knew nothing about Loghain and I did not have any particular liking to him. I did not read the stolen throne. I was mostly indifferent to him from the prieviews we had. On the otherhand, I was actually interested in Alistair in the preview trailers we saw. And yet I did the exact same thing. Spare Loghain, execute Alistair.

So could it be that I started to formulate an opinion about both characters in the game, and liked one more than the other for a reason and not just because of preconcieved opinion?
It's not like both characters were already established before the game, where we can go in with preconcieved opinions. Perhaps that was the case with Loghain via the Stolen Throne, but I did not read it until way after.

[Asdara]

Kryyptehk wrote...

So, I decided I really can't let a topic go without putting in my two cents. And they are as followed (I also posted this in another thread)


I'll tell you what that whole argument boils down to. Who you like more, Alistair or Loghain. If you like Loghain, you are gonna come up with every excuse in the book as to why he's right and Alistair is wrong. At the same time, people who like Alistair are going to say that there is no way that Loghain should survive. Hence why I do not get into that argument, because there is literally no way to dissuade either person.

And you can talk about how you always roleplay your character until your face turns blue, but how you personally feel about a character matters. I'll make up excuses to romance Alistair because I don't like Zevran or Leliana's romances. It may make sense for my character (at least to me) but it was my personal feelings that swayed my decision.

While I can see how this might be true for some players, it doesn't apply to everyone.  Not everyone is the same, not everyone puts a premium on RP while others want nothing else from a game but that - everyone is different in other words.  So to say that everyone follows this same formula isn't logical.  Some people might, but not all people.

[Sarah1281]

I truly do think if you rp a genuine, deep relationship with Alistair, that it is damn near impossible to justify siding with Loghain against him. If others can offer very good reasons why a character in love with or best friends with Alistair would do that, I would love to hear them. I know the terribleness we had to go through in the Alistair gush thread to create a valid rp story for a PC in love with Alistair to execute him, and I doubt very much many people play a character like that.

Simple: You want to spare Loghain for whatever reason. Alistair tells you that it is him or Loghain. You decide not to let Alsitair's wishes condemn a man to death unnecessarily when you already decided on making him a GW. You don't have to let him get executed, he's the one who chooses to run away and become a drunk, and you can even still make him King.



If you feel Loghain should die then it isn't even an issue. If, for whatever reason, you DO wish to spare him then changing your mind because Alistair has a problem with it means you are letting his issues with Loghain come before your own logic/morality and I know I have yet to play a character, no matter how they feel about Alistair, who will let him or anyone else make their decisions for them. And before anyone goes crying 'Mary Sue' again, you win the duel or your champion does so unless Alistiar is the fighter - in which case he makes his own judgement call without consulting you - it is your decision.

[tmp7704]

phaonica wrote...

He threatens to leave. He gave me an ultimatum. And to me, letting someone bully me around like that makes me look weak in front of the Landsmeet. Make it out to be trying to save my own reputation, if you want, but having the confidence and support of the Landsmeet is important.

It was mentioned earlier in the thread, but i think the way Alistair sees it, by the very act of trying to conscript Loghain you've already damaged your reputation (your being Grey Wardens in general but also your personal image) far more than his arguing with you about this decision could affect it. Or to put it differently, if he sees it as stupid idea and the PC as dumb for considering it, then he isn't about to care what sort of impact on your personal reputation it's going to have, because in his eyes you've already made yourself look like an idiot and the matter is too important to just smile and nod and pretend all is fine.

I suppose it can be interesting that in this situation Alistair is more concerned with image of Wardens in general while PC is more about how people view their own character to the point of willing to kill over it, but then not very surprising.

[KnightofPhoenix]

LadyDamodred wrote...
And I've never suggested you were a d!ck to him, nor would I.  I know that from what you've mentioned from your playthroughs, especially your canon one, that while you were not close to Alistair, you treated him as a comrade.  *coughs*  In fact, that very dynamic was my template for an Alistair execution story that shall never see the light of day.  You should be flattered. 

Treated him as a comrade yes, but also under my command, just like the others.
And lol really? Wow that would be the second story you write based on Arcturus haha Nice.

LadyDamodred wrote...
Also, I am really going to regret saying this, and I would love from someone to confirm this as a line that comes up in game and not just in the toolset.  But I have to be honest.  (I hope you appreciate this, KoP)  In the toolset, there is a line from Riordan that states you can be considered the Warden-Commander of Ferelden.  And before it sets off any 'Ha!  I do have the authority to execute Alistair!' arguments, I think there is a difference between being considered such and actually being given the role.  And furthermore, like others have said, I don't think the Wardens have a policy of executing people who leave.  Too much from the game/books leans in that direction for me, and so I would have to see definitive proof that they do before I even consider it as a rp rational.

That was the impression I got from the start. Riordan never bossed the PC around, at least I never saw it that way. For me it was clear that the PC was boss.

But that depends again on perspective. You can see both yourself and Alistair being equally in charge, especially if you are grooming him to be king. I don't.

As for Warden rational. My canon playthrough generally does not operate with Warden logic, at least not solely on Warden logic. However I can imagine a Warden executing Alistair simply to make sure that Alistair does not reveal Warden secrets out of spite (and is it truly beyond him?). Imagine if the Chantry and all of Thedas knew that the Wardens are essentially created via blood magic, aka evil made manifest if there was such a thing. With that logic in mind, I can understand execution being allowed.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 06 juin 2010 - 11:45 .

[tmp7704]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

As for Warden rational. My canon playthrough generally does not operate with Warden logic, at least not solely on Warden logic. However I can imagine a Warden executing Alistair simply to make sure that Alistair does not reveal Warden secrets out of spite (and is it truly beyond him?). Imagine if the Chantry and all of Thedas knew that the Wardens are essentially created via blood magic, aka evil made manifest if there was such a thing. With that logic in mind, I can understand execution being allowed.

There's bit of a problem with this line of thinking though, namely you're about to spill these precious Warden secrets to Loghain who already demonstrated will to wipe out the Wardens at least from Ferelden. So basically, you don't trust Alistair to keep his mouth shut but at the same time trust Loghain to do so, despite much worse track record in this regard... and it makes little sense for such supposed cautious Warden, imo. After all, Loghain could easily use this knowledge as leverage to get back in the saddle.

Modifié par tmp7704, 06 juin 2010 - 11:53 .

[Kryyptehk]

Asdara wrote...

Kryyptehk wrote...

So, I decided I really can't let a topic go without putting in my two cents. And they are as followed (I also posted this in another thread)


I'll tell you what that whole argument boils down to. Who you like more, Alistair or Loghain. If you like Loghain, you are gonna come up with every excuse in the book as to why he's right and Alistair is wrong. At the same time, people who like Alistair are going to say that there is no way that Loghain should survive. Hence why I do not get into that argument, because there is literally no way to dissuade either person.

And you can talk about how you always roleplay your character until your face turns blue, but how you personally feel about a character matters. I'll make up excuses to romance Alistair because I don't like Zevran or Leliana's romances. It may make sense for my character (at least to me) but it was my personal feelings that swayed my decision.

While I can see how this might be true for some players, it doesn't apply to everyone.  Not everyone is the same, not everyone puts a premium on RP while others want nothing else from a game but that - everyone is different in other words.  So to say that everyone follows this same formula isn't logical.  Some people might, but not all people.

So both you and KoP can both genuinely say that both of you can totally disregard info that you have but the character wouldn't know and make decisions based on that, without it being influenced by your knowledge at all? And more importantly, you do not let your opinions on characters sway your decisions? Okay, if you can say you do that then sure, you are right. But I highly doubt it.

[LadyDamodred]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I truly do think if you rp a genuine, deep relationship with Alistair, that it is damn near impossible to justify siding with Loghain against him. If others can offer very good reasons why a character in love with or best friends with Alistair would do that, I would love to hear them. I know the terribleness we had to go through in the Alistair gush thread to create a valid rp story for a PC in love with Alistair to execute him, and I doubt very much many people play a character like that.

Simple: You want to spare Loghain for whatever reason. Alistair tells you that it is him or Loghain. You decide not to let Alsitair's wishes condemn a man to death unnecessarily when you already decided on making him a GW. You don't have to let him get executed, he's the one who chooses to run away and become a drunk, and you can even still make him King.

If you feel Loghain should die then it isn't even an issue. If, for whatever reason, you DO wish to spare him then changing your mind because Alistair has a problem with it means you are letting his issues with Loghain come before your own logic/morality and I know I have yet to play a character, no matter how they feel about Alistair, who will let him or anyone else make their decisions for them. And before anyone goes crying 'Mary Sue' again, you win the duel or your champion does so unless Alistiar is the fighter - in which case he makes his own judgement call without consulting you - it is your decision.

*frowns*  Let me try to phrase this without being misunderstood or offending anyonhe.  My particular view on this stems from my own feelings about those I love.  I am no way implying that others don't love people, etc...  I am speaking about myself, and this colors why I don't see your argument as a particularly good one for me.

For me, my own wants/feelings/desires are tied up with those of the people I love.  If something is truly hurtful to them, then that course of action really isn't an option for me.  I don't exist as my own person, in and of myself.  Who I am is partly because of myself and partly because of those I love and who love me in return.  I have never been forced to violate my beliefs because of my relationships, thankfully, but I have done things I haven't been thrilled with because it would be more harmful to the people I love not to.  Granted, nothing was as serious as executing someone, but I think the sentiment and feelings behind it remain the same.

Wynne says in the game that love is ultimately selfish, and I partly agree, but I also think it makes you incredibly selfless.  The question my PCs would have to ask themselves in that situation is "Is holding to my moral code/belief system/logical raionale more important than the person I love most in the world?  Is holding to that worth doing the most hurtful thing I can do to the most important person in my life?"  That is how my characters would have to look at it if they're going to look at it from that angle.  And, for me, that rationale will fall short.

But this is me.  I can see, and understand why it is different for other people.  We are all built differently, think differenly, feel differently, and will naturally come to different conclusions.  I'm not saying any belief is right or more valid, just trying to get across how I think and feel in those situations.

Again, I wasn't trying in any way to offend, and if my explantions were clumsy and did so, I apologize.

[Sarah1281]

Wynne says in the game that love is ultimately selfish, and I partly agree, but I also think it makes you incredibly selfless. The question my PCs would have to ask themselves in that situation is "Is holding to my moral code/belief system/logical raionale more important than the person I love most in the world? Is holding to that worth doing the most hurtful thing I can do to the most important person in my life?" That is how my characters would have to look at it if they're going to look at it from that angle. And, for me, that rationale will fall short.

Minor question...are you trying to say that your PC is being selfless in killing Loghain because Alistair wants you to?



And the idea of not being able to exist as your own person seperate from the people you care about...that's really a disturbing concept for me. If I were undecided on a decision then I could take other's advice but if I already made up my mind then no it wouldn't matter how pissed off someone I cared about was. Does that make me a bad person? I hope not but there you have it.

[KnightofPhoenix]

tmp7704 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

As for Warden rational. My canon playthrough generally does not operate with Warden logic, at least not solely on Warden logic. However I can imagine a Warden executing Alistair simply to make sure that Alistair does not reveal Warden secrets out of spite (and is it truly beyond him?). Imagine if the Chantry and all of Thedas knew that the Wardens are essentially created via blood magic, aka evil made manifest if there was such a thing. With that logic in mind, I can understand execution being allowed.

There's bit of a problem with this line of thinking though, namely you're about to spill these precious Warden secrets to Loghain who already demonstrated will to wipe out the Wardens at least from Ferelden. So basically, you don't trust Alistair to keep his mouth shut but at the same time trust Loghain to do so, despite much worse track record in this regard... and it makes little sense for such supposed cautious Warden, imo.

But once Loghain becomes a Warden, such a desire would no longer exist. One can see Loghain as a reasonable and practical man, who knows when to yield and surrender, which he does, and that he is willing to follow orders. Of course one could also not trust him at all. But I see no reason why trusting him is impossible.
 
So your objection comes back to the point of: Can you trust Loghain?
And evidently, yes many people can trust him and that trust ultimately is well placed.