965 réponses à ce sujet

[Demx]

Hanz54321 wrote...

Siradix wrote...

I would have to say, that Loghian would have still performed the same actions. He was dead set of securing Ferelden the way he saw fit, that he would be willing to sacrifice all the remaining wardens in the country. He could always send word to the Orlesians to send GWs to fight the archdemon, after the civil war was over.

Bwahhahahahaaaa!  WHAT?! 

Loghain hated Orlesians.  He would rather rely on his own country's Wardens than call on the Orlesians for anything.  His hatred of Orleis is without question throughout the game.

 You are suggesting a marshmallow would sacrifice the plastic bag to be helped by the flame.  It just wouldn't happen.  Marshmallow knowsthe bag is safe and expects the flame to burn it.

I'm sorry for laughing but your response really made me laugh just because of Loghain's total hatred of Orlais. 

True, but there are problems with him retreating with the wardens. The first being GWs are not under Loghain's command. Second, Loghain relied on the fact that all the wardens would be fighting in the field along Cailan's side, while Loghain and Cailan's army would be waiting for the light from the tower. If Loghain were to pull the same move, but this time with the wardens, Cailan would have survived. Ser Cauthrien knew the retreat was wrong but followed orders. If GWs were to hear the retreat you bet they would send word to the front-line. The only way Loghain could secure the throne was during battle, killing Cailan with poison could too easily be traced back him.

[Asdara]

Kryyptehk wrote...

Asdara wrote...

Kryyptehk wrote...

So, I decided I really can't let a topic go without putting in my two cents. And they are as followed (I also posted this in another thread)


I'll tell you what that whole argument boils down to. Who you like more, Alistair or Loghain. If you like Loghain, you are gonna come up with every excuse in the book as to why he's right and Alistair is wrong. At the same time, people who like Alistair are going to say that there is no way that Loghain should survive. Hence why I do not get into that argument, because there is literally no way to dissuade either person.

And you can talk about how you always roleplay your character until your face turns blue, but how you personally feel about a character matters. I'll make up excuses to romance Alistair because I don't like Zevran or Leliana's romances. It may make sense for my character (at least to me) but it was my personal feelings that swayed my decision.

While I can see how this might be true for some players, it doesn't apply to everyone.  Not everyone is the same, not everyone puts a premium on RP while others want nothing else from a game but that - everyone is different in other words.  So to say that everyone follows this same formula isn't logical.  Some people might, but not all people.

So both you and KoP can both genuinely say that both of you can totally disregard info that you have but the character wouldn't know and make decisions based on that, without it being influenced by your knowledge at all? And more importantly, you do not let your opinions on characters sway your decisions? Okay, if you can say you do that then sure, you are right. But I highly doubt it.

Well I can say that on my first two play throughs, as I never learned anything about the game other than what I learned from the game itself beforehand.  And... obviously from that I picked Alastair because that was just how it happened to go for my character being all in love with him and such.  

Other plays I might have been influenced by the knowledge that I would lose or keep Alastair on the decision to gain or execute Loghain, but my like or dislike for either as a player was less relevant than how I had played my character to that point and their like or dislike for them.  What's to know?  They are both only half-way decent guys with major character flaws and major bonuses depending on what you value in a person - which to me as a player makes either one of them completely viable options - but is then filtered through the decisions and actions and relationships that particular character has had/made and has to be considered in-line with.  

So... I guess the short answer is yes?

[Kryyptehk]

Asdara wrote...

Kryyptehk wrote...

Asdara wrote...

Kryyptehk wrote...

So, I decided I really can't let a topic go without putting in my two cents. And they are as followed (I also posted this in another thread)


I'll tell you what that whole argument boils down to. Who you like more, Alistair or Loghain. If you like Loghain, you are gonna come up with every excuse in the book as to why he's right and Alistair is wrong. At the same time, people who like Alistair are going to say that there is no way that Loghain should survive. Hence why I do not get into that argument, because there is literally no way to dissuade either person.

And you can talk about how you always roleplay your character until your face turns blue, but how you personally feel about a character matters. I'll make up excuses to romance Alistair because I don't like Zevran or Leliana's romances. It may make sense for my character (at least to me) but it was my personal feelings that swayed my decision.

While I can see how this might be true for some players, it doesn't apply to everyone.  Not everyone is the same, not everyone puts a premium on RP while others want nothing else from a game but that - everyone is different in other words.  So to say that everyone follows this same formula isn't logical.  Some people might, but not all people.

So both you and KoP can both genuinely say that both of you can totally disregard info that you have but the character wouldn't know and make decisions based on that, without it being influenced by your knowledge at all? And more importantly, you do not let your opinions on characters sway your decisions? Okay, if you can say you do that then sure, you are right. But I highly doubt it.

Well I can say that on my first two play throughs, as I never learned anything about the game other than what I learned from the game itself beforehand.  And... obviously from that I picked Alastair because that was just how it happened to go for my character being all in love with him and such.  

Other plays I might have been influenced by the knowledge that I would lose or keep Alastair on the decision to gain or execute Loghain, but my like or dislike for either as a player was less relevant than how I had played my character to that point and their like or dislike for them.  What's to know?  They are both only half-way decent guys with major character flaws and major bonuses depending on what you value in a person - which to me as a player makes either one of them completely viable options - but is then filtered through the decisions and actions and relationships that particular character has had/made and has to be considered in-line with.  

So... I guess the short answer is yes?

Okay dokey, then my commit wasn't made towards you and I apologize.

[Asdara]

No need no need. I didn't take it personally - I was just saying it is one of those things that might be common to happen as you described it, but wouldn't be an 'in all cases' thing.



I was really paranoid about spoilers or any information at all when I started this game just because I really wanted to make the decisions my character would make. Btw, that totally f-ed me over my first play with an elven mage as I detailed earlier in this thread. Complete worst-case heart-ache throw the controller and cry scenario ensued. Very bad, but helpful in a way as I learned I didn't want to make that character "me" and started anew with a character closer to what I hoped would be who I would be on a second play through. That went considerably better, but still had some nasty knocks to it - still - much happier as player with it and felt much better overall.



Then I started "I wanna do everything everyway" mode and have been in that since.

[phaonica]

tmp7704 wrote...

phaonica wrote...

He threatens to leave. He gave me an ultimatum. And to me, letting someone bully me around like that makes me look weak in front of the Landsmeet. Make it out to be trying to save my own reputation, if you want, but having the confidence and support of the Landsmeet is important.

It was mentioned earlier in the thread, but i think the way Alistair sees it, by the very act of trying to conscript Loghain you've already damaged your reputation (your being Grey Wardens in general but also your personal image) far more than his arguing with you about this decision could affect it. Or to put it differently, if he sees it as stupid idea and the PC as dumb for considering it, then he isn't about to care what sort of impact on your personal reputation it's going to have, because in his eyes you've already made yourself look like an idiot and the matter is too important to just smile and nod and pretend all is fine.

I suppose it can be interesting that in this situation Alistair is more concerned with image of Wardens in general while PC is more about how people view their own character to the point of willing to kill over it, but then not very surprising.

Ok, fair enough, if he thinks it is a dumb decision and I've already made myself look stupid in front of the landsmeet, then I can see that as a fair argument for him not backing down. But I think it's unfair for you to assume that I am any less concerned with the image of the Wardens than Alistair is. We can be fighting for the same things and have a disagreement on how to go about it.

[Ymladdych]

I truly do think if you rp a genuine, deep relationship with Alistair,
that it is damn near impossible to justify siding with Loghain against
him.  If others can offer very good reasons why a character in love with
or best friends with Alistair would do that, I would love to hear
them.

It's simple: Riordan, the senior Grey Warden who's got as much reason to hate Loghain as anyone else there (maybe MORE since he had actually known Duncan from their Joining together), tells my comparatively inexperienced PC that there are "compelling reasons" to recruit Loghain.  She trusts that he knows WTF he's talking about, and if she is willing to defer to his counsel, Alistair wigs out, demands the throne just for vengeance, tosses out a few personal attacks along with an irresponsible ultimatum in front of the Landsmeet (the very people who need to be convinced that she's not making an emotional decision that will doom them all).  At that point, her back is to the wall, and she's probably feeling a little PO'd/betrayed herself. 

Remember, the "heat of the moment" pass goes both ways, and Alistair just broke her heart as much as she broke his.  *nods*

For the record, I'm an Alistair fan, and while I sympathize with Loghain's fall from grace (can easily see my PC being in Loghain's position 10 years down the road if some of my decisions turn out badly), my personal instinct would be to let Alistair take him out and get the closure he needs.  I prefer the US ending by far, but I see this one as a viable alternative, and definitely *not* OOC if my femWarden loves Alistair.  (Which all of them end up doing...he's too cute.)

[LadyDamodred]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Wynne says in the game that love is ultimately selfish, and I partly agree, but I also think it makes you incredibly selfless. The question my PCs would have to ask themselves in that situation is "Is holding to my moral code/belief system/logical raionale more important than the person I love most in the world? Is holding to that worth doing the most hurtful thing I can do to the most important person in my life?" That is how my characters would have to look at it if they're going to look at it from that angle. And, for me, that rationale will fall short.

Minor question...are you trying to say that your PC is being selfless in killing Loghain because Alistair wants you to?

No, I'm not trying to say I'm being selfless and killing Loghain because Alistair wants me to, mainly because I want him dead, too.  But I couldn't make Loghain a Grey Warden because doing so is so horrifically hurtful to Alistair.  That was what I was trying to get across.  If I failed at that, I apologize.

Sarah1281 wrote...

And the idea of not being able to exist as your own person seperate from the people you care about...that's really a disturbing concept for me. If I were undecided on a decision then I could take other's advice but if I already made up my mind then no it wouldn't matter how pissed off someone I cared about was. Does that make me a bad person? I hope not but there you have it.

What I was trying to say is that you do not develop and live in a vaccuum.  You are affected and influenced by those around you, most especially by those you love.  I do not think people make decisions wholly independent of those around them.  You are, of course, your own person.  You are not a slave to the thoughts and feelings of those around you, but they do factor into your decision making.  Sometimes they are small decisions and sometimes they are life-altering ones.

And I would never call you a bad person for being able to to stick to your guns, even if it made someone you care about angry.  God knows I am incredibly stubborn and have done that enough times in my life.  But for me there is a difference between angering someone and hurting them.

I see the particular confrontation with Alistair as being extremely hurtful to him and he reacts by being both betrayed and angry.  Maybe we don't see his reaction in quite the same ways, and thus is affects our decisions and rationales.  I understand and accept that.  I can rp that way, too, but for me personally, it's not my default way of thinking.

Did I explain better?  Tricky thing about the internet is that it can be so much harder to articulate a point a view and misunderstandings happen.

Edit:  Typos, bleh.

Modifié par LadyDamodred, 07 juin 2010 - 12:18 .

[Kryyptehk]

Asdara wrote...

No need no need. I didn't take it personally - I was just saying it is one of those things that might be common to happen as you described it, but wouldn't be an 'in all cases' thing.

I was really paranoid about spoilers or any information at all when I started this game just because I really wanted to make the decisions my character would make. Btw, that totally f-ed me over my first play with an elven mage as I detailed earlier in this thread. Complete worst-case heart-ache throw the controller and cry scenario ensued. Very bad, but helpful in a way as I learned I didn't want to make that character "me" and started anew with a character closer to what I hoped would be who I would be on a second play through. That went considerably better, but still had some nasty knocks to it - still - much happier as player with it and felt much better overall.

Then I started "I wanna do everything everyway" mode and have been in that since.

I played my first game unspoiled by allowed myself to be spoiled the next few playthroughs. My first playthrough went well (except for the fact that the dwarves were doomed to stagnation, oops?) because I didn't harden Alistair because I didn't know anything about it and didn't make him king because he so obviously didn't want to be. Not to mention Anora wanted to be so badly.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

As for Warden rational. My canon playthrough generally does not operate with Warden logic, at least not solely on Warden logic. However I can imagine a Warden executing Alistair simply to make sure that Alistair does not reveal Warden secrets out of spite (and is it truly beyond him?). Imagine if the Chantry and all of Thedas knew that the Wardens are essentially created via blood magic, aka evil made manifest if there was such a thing. With that logic in mind, I can understand execution being allowed.

I don't see any evidence of such a tight rein being held on Wardens after their Joining.  Since the ritual is secret and the documents encrypted, there is plausible deniability in any case.

While I do argue on principle that the game doesn't support an authoritarian view (it strikes me as very Orlesian, ironically ), even if we actually had a cutscene in the game where we saw Alistair bending the knee and swearing fealty to the PC as his liege lord, I personally would still dislike it if that liege lord cuts off his head simply for asking leave to depart.  I prefer a knights of the round table type of view, and that also seems to me to be more Fereldan in character.  The PC as liege lord could very well tell Alistair he's craven and turncoat for leaving, but cutting off his head simply because he represents a potential threat, that is not the kind of Warden I'd want to follow.

Modifié par Addai67, 07 juin 2010 - 12:16 .

[tmp7704]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

But once Loghain becomes a Warden, such a desire would no longer exist. One can see Loghain as a reasonable and practical man, who knows when to yield and surrender, which he does, and that he is willing to follow orders.

Ahh but why should this desire actually cease? After all, he is basically forced by people he considers to be sworn enemies plotting to destroy his country to join them, against his will. When the alternative is betraying them and ousting them as heretics and bunch of blood mages, and playing the martyr card to regain the control and support of the Landsmeet ... it's something he definitely could want to try, if he considers himself the only person able to save Ferelden from both the Blight and Warden-assisted imminent Orlais occupation.

So your objection comes back to the point of: Can you trust Loghain?
And evidently, yes many people can trust him and that trust ultimately is well placed.

No, i'm objecting to people being able to trust Loghain while not being able to trust Alistair even though Alistair has no reasons to want to harm the Wardens while Loghain most certainly does. I can believe a character may be willing to ignore valid concerns, but then they should so consistently.

[phaonica]

Kryyptehk wrote...

I played my first game unspoiled by allowed myself to be spoiled the next few playthroughs. My first playthrough went well (except for the fact that the dwarves were doomed to stagnation, oops?) because I didn't harden Alistair because I didn't know anything about it and didn't make him king because he so obviously didn't want to be. Not to mention Anora wanted to be so badly.

That's pretty much how my first playthrough went. Except that even in that playthrough, I didn't want to kill Loghain, but I did it anyway, to keep Alistair. And even that character will always thing that it was an unfair and cowardly thing to do (but only because that was the *only* reason I chose to execute Loghain in that playthrough).

[tmp7704]

phaonica wrote...

Ok, fair enough, if he thinks it is a dumb decision and I've already made myself look stupid in front of the landsmeet, then I can see that as a fair argument for him not backing down. But I think it's unfair for you to assume that I am any less concerned with the image of the Wardens than Alistair is. We can be fighting for the same things and have a disagreement on how to go about it.

I think this possible view of the player as someone who thinks less of Warden image in general may come from them willing to go to such extreme lengths as killing another Warden to preserve the image of their own person. Although i suppose the player can view it somehow opposite, that is, the act of damaging their own image affects image of Wardens in general so by saving it, they save the image of the Wardens?

Modifié par tmp7704, 07 juin 2010 - 12:25 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

As for Warden rational. My canon playthrough generally does not operate with Warden logic, at least not solely on Warden logic. However I can imagine a Warden executing Alistair simply to make sure that Alistair does not reveal Warden secrets out of spite (and is it truly beyond him?). Imagine if the Chantry and all of Thedas knew that the Wardens are essentially created via blood magic, aka evil made manifest if there was such a thing. With that logic in mind, I can understand execution being allowed.

I don't see any evidence of such a tight rein being held on Wardens after their Joining.  Since the ritual is secret and the documents encrypted, there is plausible deniability in any case.

Since we do not have a "Warden for dummies" textbook and rule of conduct, we are pretty much flexible when it comes to this, especially considering the fact that Ferelden was a special case, where there was no senior Warden willing to tell us what ought to be done (Riordan lets the PC do whatever he / she wants).
So I can see a Warden thinking that way and being perfectly valid and perfectly within the boundaries of what a Warden is. He would not fit Alsitair's ideal, maybe. But there are many reasons why Alsitair's conception also has no evidence of being true.

And I do not share your preference. He could have presented his resignation after the blight was over and it would have been accepted. Just not during.

[Kryyptehk]

phaonica wrote...

Kryyptehk wrote...

I played my first game unspoiled by allowed myself to be spoiled the next few playthroughs. My first playthrough went well (except for the fact that the dwarves were doomed to stagnation, oops?) because I didn't harden Alistair because I didn't know anything about it and didn't make him king because he so obviously didn't want to be. Not to mention Anora wanted to be so badly.

That's pretty much how my first playthrough went. Except that even in that playthrough, I didn't want to kill Loghain, but I did it anyway, to keep Alistair. And even that character will always thing that it was an unfair and cowardly thing to do (but only because that was the *only* reason I chose to execute Loghain in that playthrough).

In that playthrough, I killed Loghain because I thought he deserved to die. My opinion has slightly changed since then, but that's how my first playthrough went.

[KnightofPhoenix]

tmp7704 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

But once Loghain becomes a Warden, such a desire would no longer exist. One can see Loghain as a reasonable and practical man, who knows when to yield and surrender, which he does, and that he is willing to follow orders.

Ahh but why should this desire actually cease? After all, he is basically forced by people he considers to be sworn enemies plotting to destroy his country to join them, against his will. When the alternative is betraying them and ousting them as heretics and bunch of blood mages, and playing the martyr card to regain the control and support of the Landsmeet ... it's something he definitely could want to try, if he considers himself the only person able to save Ferelden from both the Blight and Warden-assisted imminent Orlais occupation.

But he yields and admits he is not the only person capable of saving Ferelden. You can think he is lying and that would be valid (and out-game, you would be wrong). But you can also trust him to realise that the Warden is the only hope for Ferelden, which he does realise.

No, i'm objecting to people being able to trust Loghain while not being able to trust Alistair even though Alistair has no reasons to want to harm the Wardens while Loghain most certainly does. I can believe a character may be willing to ignore valid concerns, but then they should so consistently.

Alsitair leaving is harming the Wardens well enough. Or at least can be seen that way. One can interpret Alsitair's desertion as forfeiting whatever trust he once had. While Loghain yielding and admitting that the Warden is Ferleden's only hope, earns him trust.

And being concerned with a possible Loghain treachery does not necessarily mean you execute him. Since the worst criminals and blood mages have been conscripted with no problem, then I see no inconsitency in the matter. 
 

[Sarah1281]

Kryyptehk wrote...

phaonica wrote...

Kryyptehk wrote...

I played my first game unspoiled by allowed myself to be spoiled the next few playthroughs. My first playthrough went well (except for the fact that the dwarves were doomed to stagnation, oops?) because I didn't harden Alistair because I didn't know anything about it and didn't make him king because he so obviously didn't want to be. Not to mention Anora wanted to be so badly.

That's pretty much how my first playthrough went. Except that even in that playthrough, I didn't want to kill Loghain, but I did it anyway, to keep Alistair. And even that character will always thing that it was an unfair and cowardly thing to do (but only because that was the *only* reason I chose to execute Loghain in that playthrough).

In that playthrough, I killed Loghain because I thought he deserved to die. My opinion has slightly changed since then, but that's how my first playthrough went.

My first playthrough I killed Logahin because my HNF wanted to be Queen and knew Alistair wouldn't marry her if she didn't. All my other playthroughs Loghain lives. Part of it is that since I'm making him King and think Anora would do better with him by her side than alone if Alistair fights then he may die. If I can see that this is really a line he can't cross then by sparing Loghain I ensure the King will live to take the throne and replace him with someone who ends up being just as useful in the final battle as Alistair would have.

[phaonica]

tmp7704 wrote...

Although i suppose the player can view it somehow opposite, that is, the act of damaging their own image affects image of Wardens in general so by saving it, they save the image of the Wardens?

That is was I was going for, yes. Articulation is certainly a challenge on these boards

[Demx]

My first play-though, I killed Loghain because I didn't want to loose my main tank. Then later I found out that Loghain was a pretty good tank for my party.

[phaonica]

Is holding to my moral code/belief system/logical raionale more important than the person I love most in the world? Is holding to that worth doing the most hurtful thing I can do to the most important person in my life?"

This is certainly a valid concern, and maybe it just speaks that if I am capable of abandoning the one I love in the name of duty, then I shouldn't be in a relationship in the first place. However... In the same vein, Alistair has the potential to dump you for his duty as King, too, and I dont see how that is so different.

[Asdara]

Kryyptehk wrote...

Asdara wrote...

No need no need. I didn't take it personally - I was just saying it is one of those things that might be common to happen as you described it, but wouldn't be an 'in all cases' thing.

I was really paranoid about spoilers or any information at all when I started this game just because I really wanted to make the decisions my character would make. Btw, that totally f-ed me over my first play with an elven mage as I detailed earlier in this thread. Complete worst-case heart-ache throw the controller and cry scenario ensued. Very bad, but helpful in a way as I learned I didn't want to make that character "me" and started anew with a character closer to what I hoped would be who I would be on a second play through. That went considerably better, but still had some nasty knocks to it - still - much happier as player with it and felt much better overall.

Then I started "I wanna do everything everyway" mode and have been in that since.

I played my first game unspoiled by allowed myself to be spoiled the next few playthroughs. My first playthrough went well (except for the fact that the dwarves were doomed to stagnation, oops?) because I didn't harden Alistair because I didn't know anything about it and didn't make him king because he so obviously didn't want to be. Not to mention Anora wanted to be so badly.

Mine was just a disaster for my warden, not so much for Ferelden.  She was all screwed up by the abominations in the tower shake up - I did the quests in the complete most weird order under the impression that each of the three treaties would be a three-part thing like the Redcliff ordeal was... which turned out not to be the case.  So I went from Lothering to Redcliff to the Tower (b/c Alistair freaked out when I killed Collin so badly that I re-loaded a previous save) then Denerim then the Urn of Sacred Ashes (which, btw, for my low level mage was really nigh on to impossible, as was the Fade, even on Normal Mode I was scrambling).  The Dwarves and Elves were basically an after thought by that point - then I got smacked with the Landsmeet thing.  I didn't know sparing Loghain was an option because I didn't fight him.  As I said before: mage vs. Loghain, no.  Alistair was my champion, killed him, and I never even had a hint it could go any other way.  Since I foolishly didn't lie to Anora and say I'd support her, she had the whole Landsmeet against me (oh, also I had no idea where the nobles were, so none were on my side).  And then I got dumped.  

After I got done crying I started my second character.  It was pretty traumatic actually.

Second time around I went with the human noble female and things went more naturally to the better.  I thought to myself that maybe I had tried to go too complex too soon.  When I got to reading all the options and outcomes I realized I had just unwittingly set myself up for heartache and wounds healed a little.

I just started another elven mage last night for the first time since that first play (6 plays later - though not all finished - school got in my way of playing and I forgot who some of my unfinished characters "were" so I just deleted them - because I had lost my "in character compass" for them completely by time distance) and I'm not sure I can go through with it yet... still in the tower wondering what I will do.  Planning actually like you described this time to do something different, but being reluctant to do it.  Weird really.

I'm glad the discussion around this has been so lively though, because the Loghain vs. Alastair decision weighs heavily on me - if I am going to pick Loghain I want it to fit the person who I am playing as and so I have to play her a certain way for that to be justified in my mind which is proving more challenging that I could have anticipated.  This thread and the others have been very excellent resources for insight into what goes into a character who will say Loghain shall become a warden.

[LadyDamodred]

phaonica wrote...

Is holding to my moral code/belief system/logical raionale more important than the person I love most in the world? Is holding to that worth doing the most hurtful thing I can do to the most important person in my life?"

This is certainly a valid concern, and maybe it just speaks that if I am capable of abandoning the one I love in the name of duty, then I shouldn't be in a relationship in the first place. However... In the same vein, Alistair has the potential to dump you for his duty as King, too, and I dont see how that is so different.

A valid point.  I think it's tempered by the fact that it's agonizing to the both of you.  You can also argue that it's not the most hurtful thing he could do to you, but that's an rp call.  Again, my opinion.  But I certainly see some of the similarities.

[phaonica]

Asdara wrote...


Mine was just a disaster for my warden, not so much for Ferelden.  She was all screwed up by the abominations in the tower shake up - I did the quests in the complete most weird order under the impression that each of the three treaties would be a three-part thing like the Redcliff ordeal was... which turned out not to be the case.  So I went from Lothering to Redcliff to the Tower (b/c Alistair freaked out when I killed Collin so badly that I re-loaded a previous save) then Denerim then the Urn of Sacred Ashes (which, btw, for my low level mage was really nigh on to impossible, as was the Fade, even on Normal Mode I was scrambling).  The Dwarves and Elves were basically an after thought by that point - then I got smacked with the Landsmeet thing.  I didn't know sparing Loghain was an option because I didn't fight him.  As I said before: mage vs. Loghain, no.  Alistair was my champion, killed him, and I never even had a hint it could go any other way.  Since I foolishly didn't lie to Anora and say I'd support her, she had the whole Landsmeet against me (oh, also I had no idea where the nobles were, so none were on my side).  And then I got dumped.  After I got done crying I started my second character.  It was pretty traumatic actually.

This game is awesome. Nothing quite like the first playthrough.

  This thread and the others have been very excellent resources for insight into what goes into a character who will say Loghain shall become a warden.

I'm glad to hear that

[Asdara]

Yes, nothing like the first play through. Sadly my GW lost all will to live after that, didn't even bother with the Archdemon, and went and threw herself into that well near the Chantry with all the other corpses to die of a broken spirit. Alastair and his pretty childbearing wench (not Anora - she was in the tower) could deal with the Archdemon after that. Maker have mercy on them because he sure didn't have any for poor Kat.

Well that's not entirely true.  I picked her game up a few weeks later to finish up and the Archdemon ate my party seven times in a row.  That's when I started eyeing the well with serious intent.

Modifié par Asdara, 07 juin 2010 - 12:58 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

LadyDamodred wrote...
A valid point.  I think it's tempered by the fact that it's agonizing to the both of you.  You can also argue that it's not the most hurtful thing he could do to you, but that's an rp call.  Again, my opinion.  But I certainly see some of the similarities.

I can certainly imagine an elf mage that never knew the meaning of love, then falling heads over heels for Alistair, only to be dumped because of her race / mage status, prejudices that she thought Alistair would never care about, to be extremily hurt by this, equally if not more than Alistair's Loghain hatred.

Of course I am not suggesting that Alistair has malevolent intents when doing this. But this elf mage could possibly not understand this, just like Alistair doesn't understand that sparing Loghain does not have to be personal.
The main difference is that this elf mage can't fry Alistair, or just leave him in a middle of the Blight. Although I can imagine her screwing Amaranthine and not caring about it.

[Highdragonslayer]

I don't think I have to mention it but I think we all know Allistair wouldn't be able to survive the zerg swarm