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[Costin_Razvan]

Three Loghain discussions in a matter of a week? I am impressed.



Knight: It certainly raises a very interesting point in regards to Alistair....'tis a shame DG does not post here anymore. An answer to that question would be most welcome.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Hanz54321 wrote...

Addai makes strong points too.

I will say the one thing that never rang true to me about Alistair's practical concerns about Loghain joining the wardens was his fear of the knife in the back. Once a Warden is exposed to the taint, his whole understanding of . . . well . . . EVERYTHING changes.

This is another example too of how an experience (learning the Grey warden's secrets) will change a person (Loghain).

I agree. And even if Alistair feared the stab in the back. Does he truly think just leaving is the best answer?

Especially considering if his lover is the PC. If he is truly afraid of the stab in the back, would he just leave her? Instead of staying by her side (even if he is pissed) and make sure that the stab doesn't happen?
And even with no romance. Alsitair knows that the PC is the only hope Ferelden has. If he truly feared the stab in the back, him staying with his comrade (just to avoid saying leader) to make sure it doesn't happen would have been not only acceptable, but very logical.

But Alistair leaving like that basically destroyed any argument he had. Justice? What justice is there in leaving your people to die and doing exactly what you accuse Loghain of doing? Practicality? What practicality is there when you are just leaving the fight? What is he being practical for? Being a sad drunk is practical?

As such, I see Alistair's reason as being solely motivated by hatred and revenge.  

Hanz54321 wrote...
And now I have turned my own thread into a Loghain thread again . . .

Are you honestly surprised?

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 06 juin 2010 - 06:35 .

[Sarah1281]

Addai67 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
 Loghain's little outburst if he loses wasn't one of his better moments I'll admit but I don't really feel it was childish. Perhaps that was because of the darkness of the subject matter? Not to mention that he thinks you and Alistair are just like Cailan and are being manipulated by Eamon so he honestly thinks you're going to doom Ferelden. He's wrong but that's not a childish concern.

Neither are Alistair's concerns that a) you are letting the man who destroyed Ferelden's Grey Wardens and outlawed them become one, asking for a knife in the back, and c) that justice is not being done.  I would add that you are likely dooming the country to continued civil war and that the decision is an irrational one after you just got done proving Loghain's a criminal and traitor.  He sees you acting completely counter to what not only a Grey Warden, but a person of character, should be doing.  I realize others do not see it that way, though I happen to agree with Alistair.

Refusing to swear fealty to an untested King who only is on the throne because of a father who never acknowledged him and because you and Eamon like him more than her might be considered childish, I suppose.

Not only childish, but stupid and irresponsible.  Regardless of her feelings about Alistair, when the LM decides for him, her duty is to suck it up and bend the knee.  Otherwise she is fomenting continued civil war in a time of Blight and hence playing with the destruction of her country.  Her personal feelings get in the way every bit as much as Alistair's do, and the potential consequences are greater.  He only leaves when he thinks you are going to have Loghain as his replacement anyway.  That's not dooming the country.

I really don't get why you insist on taking any and all forms of criticism of Alistair and turn it into 'oh, they must have a Mary Sue PC who demands that everyone fall into line with them'. How is running away and refusing to stand against the Blight which is his sworn duty as one of three (because he leaves before Loghain even survives the Joining) GW in Ferelden over a personal matter in any way justified?

Because it is not only over a personal matter.  See above.

As far as Loghain's speech, it's not only childish, it is an affront to others in the gallery like Bryland who fought in the rebellion with him.  He is desperate, of course, and wants to make one last appeal to the Hero of River Dane, but that is a legacy he himself destroyed.

The Mary Sue syndrome comes into play when people do not see that Alistair has valid points, or that his issue with Duncan is no more irrational than the other outbursts at the Landsmeet, all with great things at stake.  People get so used to seeing Alistair as the easy-going sidekick that they do not fairly consider the points he makes.  Often you hear that he makes no points at all, and as you're arguing, that his issues are completely personal.

It occurs to me that whether Loghain or Anora are childish really have nothing to do with if Alistair's actions were. No one, least of all Alistair, suggests that keeping Loghain alive and in the Wardens will prolong the civil war.
Loghain's past actions against the GW will not really stymie his abilitiy to fight darkspawn in the Blight NOW. Maybe he'll betray you...after you've stopped the Archdemon in which case that's just a risk you're going to have to take. Justice...there is no 'justice' in Ferelden, only vengeance. He wants to see Loghain dead and thinks putting him in the Wardens is a bad idea. That's a valid opinion. Choosing to leave instead of staying when they're so desperate for Wardens they'd suggest recruiting Loghain and where he can't keep his eye on Loghain even though he's the only one really expressing any concern about allowing him into the Order. He leaves because he cannot stand to be in the same Order as Loghain. Other people can manage it, including the PC and Riordan, but not him. That makes it a personal issue.

It's not about Alistair not doing what I want. If the Landsmeet didn't approve then I couldn't make him a Warden. It's the official decision of Ferelden to handle Loghain's...well, basically everything he did in the game by making him a Warden. People say Alistair's position is understandable and maybe it was but the minute he turned his back on Ferelden when they needed him most then he loses the moral high ground. People have also said that if Alistair were so valuable then you wouldn't have chosen Loghain over him. Well who was the one who forced that choice? Alistair and he did this even though he knew just how desperate things were and that leaving would hurt our chances. He couldn't stand to serve in the same Order as Duncan's death-enabler? Personal issues.

Just because people disagree about whether Alistair's actions are justifiable or not does NOT make them Mary Sues. It's not always about wanting him to shut up and agree with you every step of the way. If I decided that I wanted Loghain to just go about his merry way and continue being Teyrn but no longer being regent Alistair would have disagreed with me on that as well. So would the Landsmeet and thus I couldn't do that. I expected Alistair to realize he was outvoted on the Loghain-as-GW plan (as a PC would be on the 'let's just pretend Loghain never went crazy' plan) and not up and leave the country. If his personal issues prevented him from serving with me and Loghain then he could have gone off and fought with Redcliffe's army. I'm sure Teagan would have been happy to have him.

Honestly, it doesn't matter to me that you feel Alistair is justified in leaving. I just really hate how you phrase these things sometimes. Supporting Anora=kissing her ass. Taking issue with Alistair storming out of the Landsmeet=you're a Mary Sue.

[phaonica]

Part of the problem is the limitation of choices, here.  There is no room for a comprimise. I must make Loghain a Warden to spare him. If I could spare him without making him a potential danger to the remaining Wardens, I would.

I am not saying that Alistair doesn't have a reasonable argument. But you know what, even if I made a bad choice, and maybe *especially* if I made a bad choice, he should have come back.

Not only that, but if I lost the Landsmeet, and then vetoed the decision via a dual, then while the Landsmeet may then be obligated to follow me, they still thought Loghain made a better argument, so you can you really execute him on behalf of their justice at that point.?

Modifié par phaonica, 06 juin 2010 - 06:39 .

[keesio74]

I don't think Alistair's behavior was too irrational. He wanted to see the man who was responsible for the deaths of many of his comrades to die. He wanted vengeance and was upset when it was denied (by the lead warden)

[Addai]

Sarah1281 wrote...
Just because people disagree about whether Alistair's actions are justifiable or not does NOT make them Mary Sues. It's not always about wanting him to shut up and agree with you every step of the way. If I decided that I wanted Loghain to just go about his merry way and continue being Teyrn but no longer being regent Alistair would have disagreed with me on that as well. So would the Landsmeet and thus I couldn't do that. I expected Alistair to realize he was outvoted on the Loghain-as-GW plan (as a PC would be on the 'let's just pretend Loghain never went crazy' plan) and not up and leave the country. If his personal issues prevented him from serving with me and Loghain then he could have gone off and fought with Redcliffe's army. I'm sure Teagan would have been happy to have him.

Honestly, it doesn't matter to me that you feel Alistair is justified in leaving. I just really hate how you phrase these things sometimes. Supporting Anora=kissing her ass. Taking issue with Alistair storming out of the Landsmeet=you're a Mary Sue.

When I start seeing the "Loghain is childish" and "Anora is a whining little girl" threads pop up, I'll believe you that people are making a fair assessment of Alistair's reactions in the Landsmeet.  It is silly to expect the Landsmeet to go down without strong emotion anyway.  With all the death and suffering everyone has seen, to expect a dispassionate resolution is crazy.

As for how I phrase things, if that assessment doesn't apply to you, there's no reason to take it as applying to you.  You're hardly the only person who posts on these subjects, and I'm commenting on what I see as tendencies.

Modifié par Addai67, 06 juin 2010 - 06:40 .

[asaiasai]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Alistair's outburst in the Landsmeet when his triggers are pushed are no more childish or emotional than Anora's when hers are pushed, or Loghain's tirade about how no one had spilled blood as he had. The Mary Sue PC syndrome has convinced some that Alistair is an emo wimp and affects people's view of his actions in the Landsmeet.

Loghain's little outburst if he loses wasn't one of his better moments I'll admit but I don't really feel it was childish. Perhaps that was because of the darkness of the subject matter? Not to mention that he thinks you and Alistair are just like Cailan and are being manipulated by Eamon so he honestly thinks you're going to doom Ferelden. He's wrong but that's not a childish concern. 

Anora demands one thing and one thing only: the throne. She may promise support regardless and some might call her a **** for not following through on that but she'll do whatever it takes to try and get it. She feels she is the best for Ferelden and has five years of doing what she and many people (who, keep in mind, also don't care about the elves) feel is a good job so it's not like she has no evidence to back up her claim. Betraying you at the Landsmeet isn't nice but it's hardly childish. Refusing to swear fealty to an untested King who only is on the throne because of a father who never acknowledged him and because you and Eamon like him more than her might be considered childish, I suppose.

Alistair walks away and leaves Ferelden to its fate if you neglect to kill one man. He's really willing to doom the entire country for one man. Yes, I do happen to find that childish to say the least. In fact, that's probably the most positive description I can come up with for that kind of behavior.

I really don't get why you insist on taking any and all forms of criticism of Alistair and turn it into 'oh, they must have a Mary Sue PC who demands that everyone fall into line with them'. How is running away and refusing to stand against the Blight which is his sworn duty as one of three (because he leaves before Loghain even survives the Joining) GW in Ferelden over a personal matter in any way justified? 

If he wants to hate me for sparing Loghain, never speak to me again, pretend that he's never been to Ferelden, go become a wandering drunk, go travelling, publicly denounce me, whatever AFTER he does his goddamn duty then that's fine. He can do that and that's perfectly understandable. Before, however? Let's just say that he wasn't the only one to become disillusioned at the Landsmeet.

Amen Sarah

I think we all walked out of there feeling a bit on the slimey side, the decisions the PC has to make will never make everyone happy. After we have settled Dwarven politics, saved the dalish from a distraught father's actions, fixed the tower (what ever was decided), we are now called upon to settle a civil war. There will be a winner and a loser as is the case in every decision whether it be flavors of ice cream or an automobile, you can try and make the bitter pill easier to swallow, but in the end it is still about the blight, nothing else matters nothing. Allistair seems to have forgotten that and that is his crime, Loghain never refused to do his duty, regardless of how you feel about it, EVERYTHING he did was for Feraldin that is his crime, which if you look at it pragmaticly is exactly what you have spent the entire game doing, OH because it is the warden (you) it is different? That is Loghain, that is you, that is why Allistair deserves what ever fate you decide for him.

Asai

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sarah1281 wrote...
Honestly, it doesn't matter to me that you feel Alistair is justified in leaving. I just really hate how you phrase these things sometimes. Supporting Anora=kissing her ass. Taking issue with Alistair storming out of the Landsmeet=you're a Mary Sue.

Any phrasing like that, including "Alistair being a whining pansy brat", is just way over simplified to be taking seriously. And I might add, very foolish.
 
And no, people saying this about Alistair doesn't really make the phrasing about Anora and taking issue with Alsitair leaving, smart either. None of them can be taken seriously and I wish they would no longer be used anywhere. At least not in a discussion that is meant to be serious.   

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 06 juin 2010 - 06:58 .

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

As such, I see Alistair's reason as being solely motivated by hatred and revenge.  

I'll respond from my own personal judgment, but from what I can see of Alistair's character, I think it fits.  If I were truly in the Warden's shoes, I would not fight with Loghain.  I would not share a camp with him, and I would not want him beside me in battle.  That is the place I would most want to know that I could count on the man next to me.  When it comes down to it, even if there is a need for recruits, there is no reason why it has to be that man.  Particularly as he is the one who has prevented you from recruiting anyone else.  The Wardens do not just take anybody, Duncan tells you this- they take the best.  For myself, and for Alistair as well I think, that "best" has to be about more than skill in battle.  You can make certain compromises, but Loghain is beyond the pale of even those.  I'll admit that this is a personal judgment, but I also believe it a principled one.

I won't say that Alistair was not wrong in leaving completely.  I believe Gaider has said that it's a mistake he'll regret his whole life.  He could have gone under Teagan's command and stayed at Redcliffe, for instance.  Edit:  Or more appropriately, go to Orlais and join the Wardens there.

Modifié par Addai67, 06 juin 2010 - 07:06 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
I won't say that Alistair was not wrong in leaving completely.  I believe Gaider has said that it's a mistake he'll regret his whole life.  He could have gone under Teagan's command and stayed at Redcliffe, for instance.

Again, his action of leaving destroyed any argument he could have had and they are all valid.

And your own position is not indicative of Alsitair's. Him leaving shows, to me at least, that he was acting only out of blind hatred that he couldn't think properly. There was dozens of ways he could have remained in Ferelden, while staying true to his arguments. He could have went with Teagan. He could have went with Riordan. He could have even requested leaving to the Orlesian army. 

But him leaving destroys any legitimacy in his position and shows that undernearth it is not based on a rational well thought out mind, but on an irrational one. At least in my point of view.  

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 06 juin 2010 - 07:09 .

[keesio74]

People panning Alistair for being upset have to look at it this way... how many human noble Cousland characters would spare Arl Howe if Howe said that he surrenders and if you spare his life, he'll help against the Blight? I know I'd say tell him to go to hell, I'll fight the blight without you and then end his life

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

But him leaving destroys any legitimacy in his position and shows that undernearth it is not based on a rational well thought out mind, but on an irrational one. At least in my point of view.  

Because he feels more strongly about it than I do, that does not make his position per se invalid.  He's a human being, not a machine.  Obviously since Gaider says he regrets leaving, at some point he is able to talk himself down a bit, just not on screen or in game time.  Alistair is an idealistic character, and these tend to see things in black and white (I am sympathetic to him in this since I have the same tendency).  From his perspective, it is the PC who spares Loghain who has lost his/her mind, and he wants no part of what you're doing.

I think if he was a person who had more moorings in society, that he would have made a better decision than just leaving.  As I see it, it is because he has no home, no place in society, no name he can even claim openly, that when he also believes he does not have the Grey Wardens any longer, he simply does not know what to do or where to go.  You might say that if you were in his shoes, you would do it all so differently and so much better, but excuse me while I stand over here looking skeptical.

[KnightofPhoenix]

keesio74 wrote...

People panning Alistair for being upset have to look at it this way... how many human noble Cousland characters would spare Arl Howe if Howe said that he surrenders and if you spare his life, he'll help against the Blight? I know I'd say tell him to go to hell, I'll fight the blight without you and then end his life

Let me ask that question to you in a different light.

If Alistair wanted to spare Howe, would your HN abandon Ferelden and leave, because he / she didn't get revenge?
Would he / she think that revenge is the most important thing to think about right in the middle of a blight?

If yes, then your HN is like Alistair (only worse because he / she promised Bryce to fullfill their duty). And I will see both in the exact same way. Aka not positively on this very issue.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

But him leaving destroys any legitimacy in his position and shows that undernearth it is not based on a rational well thought out mind, but on an irrational one. At least in my point of view.  

Because he feels more strongly about it than I do, that does not make his position per se invalid.  He's a human being, not a machine.  Obviously since Gaider says he regrets leaving, at some point he is able to talk himself down a bit, just not on screen or in game time.  Alistair is an idealistic character, and these tend to see things in black and white (I am sympathetic to him in this since I have the same tendency).  From his perspective, it is the PC who spares Loghain who has lost his/her mind, and he wants no part of what you're doing.

I think if he was a person who had more moorings in society, that he would have made a better decision than just leaving.  As I see it, it is because he has no home, no place in society, no name he can even claim openly, that when he also believes he does not have the Grey Wardens any longer, he simply does not know what to do or where to go.  You might say that if you were in his shoes, you would do it all so differently and so much better, but excuse me while I stand over here looking skeptical.

You can be skeptical all you want about what I would do, it's irrelevent to the discussion.

It makes it invalid because it goes staright up against his own arguments:

- Fearing to be stabbed in the back. That only assumes that he actually cares about winning this war, correct? Hence why he doesn't want to be stabbed in the back. So what's his response? Leaving? How is that coherent?

- Justice / black and white. Again, incoherent. What kind of justice can you claim when you leave your people to die with no consideration to them whatsoever? How can you claim that Loghain committed treason by retreating at Ostagar, while you are just leaving Ferelden with no problem at all?

- PC losing his / her mind. Other than the fact he / she leads the hwole army now. He did not need to stay with her / him. He could have stayed with Riordan, or he could have left to go with the Orlesians. Him leaving to be a sad drunk is not helping him.

- In Duncan's name. That is hypocritical. You want to kill the man who killed the Wardens and yet have no problem turnign your back against the Blight and abandoning your duty as a Warden. This hsows that Alsitair had a very poor understanding of what a warden is. 

So yes, his decision to leave removes any legitimacy he might have had.
I am not saying your explanation is wrong. But it still does not generate sympathy for me. He could have hated Loghain and the Warden all he wants. But leaving and turning his back against the Blight? I will never sympathise with the decision.
 

[Merilsell]

Well time to dig up the arguments, Gaider had given on this very topic, I suppose.

David Gaider wrote....

[...] Alistair cares very little about himself, and everything about what he sees as his duty. He sees being a Grey Warden as an honor, and it is his duty to avenge Duncan -- something he swore he would do. These are not character traits that came out of nowhere.

At the Landsmeet, suddenly he is confronted with the fact that what he thinks doesn't matter. Duncan is not going to be avenged. Perhaps you force him to become a King, or you take his worst enemy into the order and thus sully it in his mind forever. You -- the person he thought had his back -- suddenly betray him... and this is a character trait that comes out of nowhere?

What did you think would happen? That he would make a snarky, disparaging remark and let it lie? Well, not this time... sometimes people do surprise you, and in this case finding himself a backbone and taking a stance could come as an unpleasant and inconvenient surprise for some people. But I completely disagree that it comes out of nowhere.

[...]The fact that an Alistair doesn't come back later once it becomes
apparent that the confrontation in Denerim is going to happen right away before the Orlesian Wardens can arrive -- that's where I personally think Alistair did the clearly wrong thing. In my mind, it would be his foolish pride getting in the way at that point. As someone else said, he let his thirst for vengeance corrupt him in much the way that Loghain had been corrupted --absolutely true. And intentional.

[...]It is very easy, I think, to lose respect for Alistair based on how he
handles that moment when it occurs. The fact that he expects that his
closest friends or lover should back him up rather than shatter his
ideals (deserved or not, depending on how you view them) could give you plenty of reason to dislike him. But does he really do those things
because he's a whiny baby who likes to complain? Like I said -- that kind of comment says more about the player than about Alistair.

There you have it. I rest my case. Reading his whole couple of posts again, I can say for sure that Alistair's 'snarkiness' doesn't come out of nowhere.

David Gaider wrote....

If your argument is simply that you should be able to kill Alistair
regardless of the circumstance -- well, that hardly seems surprising.
Perhaps you should make a mod for it?

BAMF <3

Modifié par Merilsell, 06 juin 2010 - 07:30 .

[Demx]

Alistair is just acting the way he was taught. Apostates are bad. Morrigan = bad. People who try to kill you are bad. Loghain and Zevran = bad. Golems are tools to be used. A golem with freewill and despises flesh creatures is bad. Shale = bad.



But for the most part I believe people just expect less from Loghain, since he was depicted as one of the main villains from the beginning. Just how people expect Alistair to be more understanding of your decisions, since he is with you from the beginning.

[Sarah1281]

Merilsell wrote...

Well time to dig up the arguments, Gaider had given on this very topic, I suppose.

David Gaider wrote....
[...] Alistair cares very little about himself, and everything about what he sees as his duty. He sees being a Grey Warden as an honor, and it is his duty to avenge Duncan -- something he swore he would do. These are not character traits that came out of nowhere.

At the Landsmeet, suddenly he is confronted with the fact that what he thinks doesn't matter. Duncan is not going to be avenged. Perhaps you force him to become a King, or you take his worst enemy into the order and thus sully it in his mind forever. You -- the person he thought had his back -- suddenly betray him... and this is a character trait that comes out of nowhere?

What did you think would happen? That he would make a snarky, disparaging remark and let it lie? Well, not this time... sometimes people do surprise you, and in this case finding himself a backbone and taking a stance could come as an unpleasant and inconvenient surprise for some people. But I completely disagree that it comes out of nowhere.

[...]The fact that an Alistair doesn't come back later once it becomes
apparent that the confrontation in Denerim is going to happen right away before the Orlesian
Wardens can arrive -- that's where I personally think Alistair did the
clearly wrong thing. In my mind, it would be his foolish pride getting
in the way at that point. As someone else said, he let his thirst for
vengeance corrupt him in much the way that Loghain had been corrupted --
absolutely true. And intentional.

[...]It is very easy, I think, to lose respect for Alistair based on how he
handles that moment when it occurs. The fact that he expects that his
closest friends or lover should back him up rather than shatter his
ideals (deserved or not, depending on how you view them) could give you
plenty of reason to dislike him. But does he really do those things
because he's a whiny baby who likes to complain? Like I said -- that
kind of comment says more about the player than about Alistair.

There you have it. I rest my case. Reading his whole couple of posts again, I can say for sure that Alistair's 'snarkiness' doesn't come out of nowhere.

David Gaider wrote....
If your argument is simply that you should be able to kill Alistair
regardless of the circumstance -- well, that hardly seems surprising.
Perhaps you should make a mod for it?

BAMF <3

I don't really think that post says anything about whether he made a good or even forgiveable decision; he just pointed out that Alistiar freaking out wasn't OOC.

[KnightofPhoenix]

@ Merisell. David Gaider's comment don't really answer or refute anyone here. No one is claiming that Alistair is a baby. No one is claiming that it came out of nowhere, the whole point of the thread is to show that it was expected. In fact, Mr Gaider says exatcly what's on my mind:

"[...]It is very easy, I think, to lose respect for Alistair based on how he

handles that moment when it occurs. The fact that he expects that his

closest friends or lover should back him up rather than shatter his

ideals (deserved or not, depending on how you view them) could give you

plenty of reason to dislike him."

Just replace "dislike" with "disrespect".

[BigBad]

Who does the rational thing all the time? I mean, sure, it works if you're a psychic space elf, but human beings are often irrational creatures ruled by their emotions. Like I said in another thread, Alistair acts much like a real person would. To him, those nameless NPCs killed at Ostagar were friends and colleagues, including our temporary mentor who was also his surrogate father-figure. To Alistair, Loghain is as vile and untrustworthy as Howe or Vaughn, and whose crimes are just as grave and irredeemable as theirs, and I know how I'd have reacted if someone had suggested recruiting one of those guys into my party. Loghain spends the entire game commanding and allowing atrocities on his very doorstep, polluting all that is good about the country he claims to love, in the name of a war that only exists in his mind while ignoring the one clawing at his homeland. To recruit him, from Alistair's POV, is not just bad judgement, but a complete desecration of everything the Wardens stand for in his mind.



Also, in a way, I see Alistair leaving if you pick Loghain as a sort of backhanded compliment. Despite his inability to accept Loghain as a comrade of necessity, it goes completely against his character to abandon Ferelden to the Blight unless he is confident that you can succeed without his help. So, yeah, he tells everyone how disgusted he is and buggers off to drown in a bottle or secure his throne, but the only reason I can discern for his ability to view that as a valid choice is that he feels your chances are just as good without him as they are with him, and he's not gonna stick with you out of friendship after what he sees as a huge betrayal.

[Addai]

Siradix wrote...

But for the most part I believe people just expect less from Loghain, since he was depicted as one of the main villains from the beginning. Just how people expect Alistair to be more understanding of your decisions, since he is with you from the beginning.

Well said.

[Merilsell]

And explained his motives, not to forget. His post also said that Alistair made the wrong decision by letting his foolish pride/thirst for vengeance get into his way and will be surely regretting his actions later on ; )

[KnightofPhoenix]

BigBad wrote...
Also, in a way, I see Alistair leaving if you pick Loghain as a sort of backhanded compliment. Despite his inability to accept Loghain as a comrade of necessity, it goes completely against his character to abandon Ferelden to the Blight unless he is confident that you can succeed without his help. So, yeah, he tells everyone how disgusted he is and buggers off to drown in a bottle or secure his throne, but the only reason I can discern for his ability to view that as a valid choice is that he feels your chances are just as good without him as they are with him, and he's not gonna stick with you out of friendship after what he sees as a huge betrayal.

Yea sure. I guess every soldier can go to his captain and tell him "I have so much faith in you, that I will just leave knowing full well that you will win without me" and the Captain ought to have a smile on his face. Please, that is not an argument.

And even if it is true, that just sounds stupid if he said that. And compeltely self-demeaning. He would basically be admitting that he is inconsequential. If he doesn't have respect for himself, why should I respect him?

[Addai]

BigBad wrote...

Also, in a way, I see Alistair leaving if you pick Loghain as a sort of backhanded compliment. Despite his inability to accept Loghain as a comrade of necessity, it goes completely against his character to abandon Ferelden to the Blight unless he is confident that you can succeed without his help. So, yeah, he tells everyone how disgusted he is and buggers off to drown in a bottle or secure his throne, but the only reason I can discern for his ability to view that as a valid choice is that he feels your chances are just as good without him as they are with him, and he's not gonna stick with you out of friendship after what he sees as a huge betrayal.

This, also, is well said.  By forcing the issue even when you know he intends to leave, you also are tacitly agreeing with him that he is not needed.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Yea sure. I guess every soldier can go to his captain and tell him "I have so much faith in you, that I will just leave knowing full well that you will win without me" and the Captain ought to have a smile on his face. Please, that is not an argument.

You are assuming that your PC is his commanding officer.

[BigBad]

If anyone is his commanding officer, it would be Riordan. The PC doesn't even have seniority over Alistair, much less official ranking above his. You're only his leader because he chooses to follow you. And when he chooses not to, you don't really have any authority to pull rank.