965 réponses à ce sujet

[LadyDamodred]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...
A valid point.  I think it's tempered by the fact that it's agonizing to the both of you.  You can also argue that it's not the most hurtful thing he could do to you, but that's an rp call.  Again, my opinion.  But I certainly see some of the similarities.

I can certainly imagine an elf mage that never knew the meaning of love, then falling heads over heels for Alistair, only to be dumped because of her race / mage status, prejudices that she thought Alistair would never care about, to be extremily hurt by this, equally if not more than Alistair's Loghain hatred.

Of course I am not suggesting that Alistair has malevolent intents when doing this. But this elf mage could possibly not understand this, just like Alistair doesn't understand that sparing Loghain does not have to be personal.
The main difference is that this elf mage can't fry Alistair, or just leave him in a middle of the Blight. Although I can imagine her screwing Amaranthine and not caring about it.

Yup.  Absolutely.  It's an rp call in that situation.  And a PC in that situation can certainly get mad at him when he does that.  Some of the lines you can say to him are hurtful.

Edit:  *hopes she didn't offend Sarah somehow in her attempt to explain earlier*  :x

Modifié par LadyDamodred, 07 juin 2010 - 01:03 .

[tmp7704]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

But he yields and admits he is not the only person capable of saving Ferelden. You can think he is lying and that would be valid (and out-game, you would be wrong). But you can also trust him to realise that the Warden is the only hope for Ferelden, which he does realise.

Yes, however it goes back to may initial objection which is, the player is arbitrarily deciding to wave away a valid concern while in another situation they are not doing the same thing even though the concerns in that other situation are actually smaller. There is no logic in such going from one stance to its direct opposite literally within a few minutes. Not with a person who is supposed to kill another Warden simply because they just wouldn't take such risk as possibility of having their secrets revealed.

Alsitair leaving is harming the Wardens well enough. Or at least can be seen that way. One can interpret Alsitair's desertion as forfeiting whatever trust he once had. While Loghain yielding and admitting that the Warden is Ferleden's only hope, earns him trust.

If leaving is harming enough, wouldn't active attempts to wipe out the Wardens through a trap/betrayal and assasination be even more damning? And is it really enough then for someone like that to simply say "i'm sorry, i was wrong" (when the alternative of doing so is their death) to sway mind of man who has no trouble killing a person merely because he thinks they might reveal Warden secrets? Again, there's little consistency in this. Lot of sudden trust based on very little, coming from person who is supposed to not be trustful. If Alistair said "i'm sorry" as he leaves would that be enough to trust him again and let him live, too?

And being concerned with a possible Loghain treachery does not necessarily mean you execute him. Since the worst criminals and blood mages have been conscripted with no problem, then I see no inconsitency in the matter. 

The player has no experience when it comes to track record of problems with conscription of the "worst criminals and blood mages" actually. For that matter neither do we. But the player only knows 4 Wardens total -- themselves, Alistair, Duncan and Riordan, and very little about half of them to boot. That's a very small group to draw statistics from.

Modifié par tmp7704, 07 juin 2010 - 01:03 .

[phaonica]

Asdara wrote...

Yes, nothing like the first play through. Sadly my GW lost all will to live after that, didn't even bother with the Archdemon, and went and threw herself into that well near the Chantry with all the other corpses to die of a broken spirit. Alastair and his pretty childbearing wench (not Anora - she was in the tower) could deal with the Archdemon after that. Maker have mercy on them because he sure didn't have any for poor Kat.

Well that's not entirely true.  I picked her game up a few weeks later to finish up and the Archdemon ate my party seven times in a row.  That's when I started eyeing the well with serious intent.

[phaonica]

LadyDamodred wrote...

phaonica wrote...

Is holding to my moral code/belief system/logical raionale more important than the person I love most in the world? Is holding to that worth doing the most hurtful thing I can do to the most important person in my life?"

This is certainly a valid concern, and maybe it just speaks that if I am capable of abandoning the one I love in the name of duty, then I shouldn't be in a relationship in the first place. However... In the same vein, Alistair has the potential to dump you for his duty as King, too, and I dont see how that is so different.

A valid point.  I think it's tempered by the fact that it's agonizing to the both of you.  You can also argue that it's not the most hurtful thing he could do to you, but that's an rp call.  Again, my opinion.  But I certainly see some of the similarities.

You simply cannot completely take your heart out of the decision. I accept that. It broke my heart to hurt Alistair, but I had a responsibility to more than just him. At least, that is how my character perceived the situation.

Edit: damn it all, adding for clarity: I'm not saying that following Alistair is irresponsible, either, only that I thought I was doing the correct thing.

Modifié par phaonica, 07 juin 2010 - 01:08 .

[Asdara]

phaonica wrote...

Asdara wrote...

Yes, nothing like the first play through. Sadly my GW lost all will to live after that, didn't even bother with the Archdemon, and went and threw herself into that well near the Chantry with all the other corpses to die of a broken spirit. Alastair and his pretty childbearing wench (not Anora - she was in the tower) could deal with the Archdemon after that. Maker have mercy on them because he sure didn't have any for poor Kat.

Well that's not entirely true.  I picked her game up a few weeks later to finish up and the Archdemon ate my party seven times in a row.  That's when I started eyeing the well with serious intent.

Yes.  All the "He killed my friend he's a bad man" in the world doesn't add up to the broken heart of my poor naive little elf mage who was just trying to do right by a world that hated everything she was and everything she was about and finally got her heart crushed by the one person who wasn't cruel to her enough to love her for a moment.  Seriously.  I was - as a player - truly destroyed on her behalf for awhile.  I drafted angry letters I never sent over it and everything... which makes me look a tad crazy but I let myself get just a tad too invested in her I suppose having given her my nickname and all.  

Anyway... moved on since then but I still remember.  That was my "hardening" perhaps.

[LadyDamodred]

phaonica wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...

phaonica wrote...

Is holding to my moral code/belief system/logical raionale more important than the person I love most in the world? Is holding to that worth doing the most hurtful thing I can do to the most important person in my life?"

This is certainly a valid concern, and maybe it just speaks that if I am capable of abandoning the one I love in the name of duty, then I shouldn't be in a relationship in the first place. However... In the same vein, Alistair has the potential to dump you for his duty as King, too, and I dont see how that is so different.

A valid point.  I think it's tempered by the fact that it's agonizing to the both of you.  You can also argue that it's not the most hurtful thing he could do to you, but that's an rp call.  Again, my opinion.  But I certainly see some of the similarities.

You simply cannot completely take your heart out of the decision. I accept that. It broke my heart to hurt Alistair, but I had a responsibility to more than just him. At least, that is how my character perceived the situation.

Edit: damn it all, adding for clarity: I'm not saying that following Alistair is irresponsible, either, only that I thought I was doing the correct thing.

I am going to assume you are referring to the Landsmeet and not the break-up scene?  If so, then yes, I do understand the position even if I do not agree with it.

[KnightofPhoenix]

tmp7704 wrote...
Yes, however it goes back to may initial objection which is, the player is arbitrarily deciding to wave away a valid concern while in another situation they are not doing the same thing even though the concerns in that other situation are actually smaller. There is no logic in such going from one stance to its direct opposite literally within a few minutes. Not with a person who is supposed to kill another Warden simply because they just wouldn't take such risk as possibility of having their secrets revealed.

It's not waving away or ignoring. It's just believing that with Loghain under his watch, he will not be as a potential threat as Alistair going off to God knows where, while he hates you and all those involved in the Landsmeet.

If Loghain is made a Warden, and is being watched closely, he would not be as a potential threat as Alistair going off outside your sight. At least, that's a valid position and I do not see it as illogical.

Furthermore, Loghain demonstrated that he would not betray Ferelden and if you believe his realisation that only you can save it to be sincere, then that is reason enough to trust him. Alsitair on the otherhand has no more reason not to betray you, as he already did.

If leaving is harming enough, wouldn't active attempts to wipe out the Wardens through a trap/betrayal and assasination be even more damning? And is it really enough then for someone like that to simply say "i'm sorry, i was wrong" (when the alternative of doing so is their death) to sway mind of man who has no trouble killing a person merely because he thinks they might reveal Warden secrets? Again, there's little consistency in this. Lot of sudden trust based on very little, coming from person who is supposed to not be trustful. If Alistair said "i'm sorry" as he leaves would that be enough to trust him again and let him live, too?

Loghain was not a Warden when he did those things. Alistair is a Warden.

And no, Alsitair saying sorry right in the middle of deserting obviously won't work. But Alsitair saying sorry after declaring his intentions to desert and saying that he will remain is another situation compeltely.

It's like saying he would forgive someone killing a person while saying sorry when he is doing the deed. Different situations between someone apologising during the deed and after. Loghain's apology could be sincere, and it could not. But Alistair's apology right in the middle of deserting could not be seen as sincere.

And again, this is not my Canon Warden speaking. He did not execute Alsitair for this. But I see this as a perfectly valid position.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 07 juin 2010 - 01:12 .

[phaonica]

Asdara wrote...

phaonica wrote...

Asdara wrote...

Yes, nothing like the first play through. Sadly my GW lost all will to live after that, didn't even bother with the Archdemon, and went and threw herself into that well near the Chantry with all the other corpses to die of a broken spirit. Alastair and his pretty childbearing wench (not Anora - she was in the tower) could deal with the Archdemon after that. Maker have mercy on them because he sure didn't have any for poor Kat.

Well that's not entirely true.  I picked her game up a few weeks later to finish up and the Archdemon ate my party seven times in a row.  That's when I started eyeing the well with serious intent.

Yes.  All the "He killed my friend he's a bad man" in the world doesn't add up to the broken heart of my poor naive little elf mage who was just trying to do right by a world that hated everything she was and everything she was about and finally got her heart crushed by the one person who wasn't cruel to her enough to love her for a moment.  Seriously.  I was - as a player - truly destroyed on her behalf for awhile.  I drafted angry letters I never sent over it and everything... which makes me look a tad crazy but I let myself get just a tad too invested in her I suppose having given her my nickname and all.  

Anyway... moved on since then but I still remember.  That was my "hardening" perhaps.

I'm sorry if I brought back hurtful memories. I underestimate how much we can be affected personally by these things. I apologize for being so tactless.

[Kryyptehk]

Uhhh, sorry to be off topic but...

KoP! That's not TIM! WTF is wrong with you??? I don't even--

Ahem. [Insert argument]

[Sarah1281]

LadyDamodred wrote...
Edit:  *hopes she didn't offend Sarah somehow in her attempt to explain earlier*  :x

Oh, don't worry: you didn't. I'm not really a very emotional person so the thought of killing Loghain just on the basis of Alistair's emotional needs...well, he seems to get over it by the epilogue. I don't tend to hold grudges, either, so the thought that Alistair was still holding Loghain personally responsible for the darkspawn killing Duncan to the point he can't stand to even fight the same Blight as him is really mind-boggling.

Although I do acknowledge my lack of ability to hold on to strong emotions for any length of time isn't the way most people are and it's not like expect Alistair to be like that I just can't really sympathize with his position as much as other people can and do.

[tmp7704]

Kryyptehk wrote...

Uhhh, sorry to be off topic but...

KoP! That's not TIM! WTF is wrong with you??? I don't even--

Ahem. [Insert argument]

It's KoP's personal version of TIM, it's alright

[phaonica]

Kryyptehk wrote...

Uhhh, sorry to be off topic but...

KoP! That's not TIM! WTF is wrong with you??? I don't even--

Ahem. [Insert argument]

No lie, I did a double take, I didn't recognize him. LOL

[Kryyptehk]

tmp7704 wrote...

Kryyptehk wrote...

Uhhh, sorry to be off topic but...

KoP! That's not TIM! WTF is wrong with you??? I don't even--

Ahem. [Insert argument]

It's KoP's personal version of TIM, it's alright

Blaragh.

TIM disapproves.

[LadyDamodred]

Sarah1281 wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...
Edit:  *hopes she didn't offend Sarah somehow in her attempt to explain earlier*  :x

Oh, don't worry: you didn't. I'm not really a very emotional person so the thought of killing Loghain just on the basis of Alistair's emotional needs...well, he seems to get over it by the epilogue. I don't tend to hold grudges, either, so the thought that Alistair was still holding Loghain personally responsible for the darkspawn killing Duncan to the point he can't stand to even fight the same Blight as him is really mind-boggling.

Although I do acknowledge my lack of ability to hold on to strong emotions for any length of time isn't the way most people are and it's not like expect Alistair to be like that I just can't really sympathize with his position as much as other people can and do.

Well, like I said, it's not just on the basis of Alistair's emotional needs.  It's the making him a Warden that she can't do because of how hurtful it is.  Though I will admit, most characters would execute Loghain anyway, but it's for his crimes and their need to see justice, not just Alistair's wants.

As for holding grudges...  *grins*  Yeah, I am a master of that. 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Kryyptehk wrote...

Uhhh, sorry to be off topic but...

KoP! That's not TIM! WTF is wrong with you??? I don't even--

Ahem. [Insert argument]

That's TIM's twin brother, David Xanatos!

Plus, I now have a goatee and a similar hairstyle, so I figured I should have a more appropriate avatar

[Kryyptehk]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Kryyptehk wrote...

Uhhh, sorry to be off topic but...

KoP! That's not TIM! WTF is wrong with you??? I don't even--

Ahem. [Insert argument]

That's TIM's twin brother, David Xanatos!

Plus, I now have a goatee and a similar hairstyle, so I figured I should have a more appropriate avatar

That new avatar just reinforces my idea that you are an evil mastermind. And makes me question my inclusion in the KoP fanclub. Hmmmm... -revises theories-

[insert Alistair/Loghain argument]

[Asdara]

phaonica wrote...

Asdara wrote...

phaonica wrote...

Asdara wrote...

Yes, nothing like the first play through. Sadly my GW lost all will to live after that, didn't even bother with the Archdemon, and went and threw herself into that well near the Chantry with all the other corpses to die of a broken spirit. Alastair and his pretty childbearing wench (not Anora - she was in the tower) could deal with the Archdemon after that. Maker have mercy on them because he sure didn't have any for poor Kat.

Well that's not entirely true.  I picked her game up a few weeks later to finish up and the Archdemon ate my party seven times in a row.  That's when I started eyeing the well with serious intent.

Yes.  All the "He killed my friend he's a bad man" in the world doesn't add up to the broken heart of my poor naive little elf mage who was just trying to do right by a world that hated everything she was and everything she was about and finally got her heart crushed by the one person who wasn't cruel to her enough to love her for a moment.  Seriously.  I was - as a player - truly destroyed on her behalf for awhile.  I drafted angry letters I never sent over it and everything... which makes me look a tad crazy but I let myself get just a tad too invested in her I suppose having given her my nickname and all.  

Anyway... moved on since then but I still remember.  That was my "hardening" perhaps.

I'm sorry if I brought back hurtful memories. I underestimate how much we can be affected personally by these things. I apologize for being so tactless.

Actually it feels really good to tell the tale and get it out of my blood.  I feel quite cleansed.  People who play know what it's and don't make fun of you for saying you got all crazy.    Thanks!

[KnightofPhoenix]

Kryyptehk wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Kryyptehk wrote...

Uhhh, sorry to be off topic but...

KoP! That's not TIM! WTF is wrong with you??? I don't even--

Ahem. [Insert argument]

That's TIM's twin brother, David Xanatos!

Plus, I now have a goatee and a similar hairstyle, so I figured I should have a more appropriate avatar

That new avatar just reinforces my idea that you are an evil mastermind. And makes me question my inclusion in the KoP fanclub. Hmmmm... -revises theories-

[insert Alistair/Loghain argument]

Technically, David Xanatos becomes a pseudo good guy in the Gargoyles series.

Plus, he is just as badass as TIM.

[LadyDamodred]

Asdara wrote...

phaonica wrote...

Asdara wrote...

phaonica wrote...

Asdara wrote...

Yes, nothing like the first play through. Sadly my GW lost all will to live after that, didn't even bother with the Archdemon, and went and threw herself into that well near the Chantry with all the other corpses to die of a broken spirit. Alastair and his pretty childbearing wench (not Anora - she was in the tower) could deal with the Archdemon after that. Maker have mercy on them because he sure didn't have any for poor Kat.

Well that's not entirely true.  I picked her game up a few weeks later to finish up and the Archdemon ate my party seven times in a row.  That's when I started eyeing the well with serious intent.

Yes.  All the "He killed my friend he's a bad man" in the world doesn't add up to the broken heart of my poor naive little elf mage who was just trying to do right by a world that hated everything she was and everything she was about and finally got her heart crushed by the one person who wasn't cruel to her enough to love her for a moment.  Seriously.  I was - as a player - truly destroyed on her behalf for awhile.  I drafted angry letters I never sent over it and everything... which makes me look a tad crazy but I let myself get just a tad too invested in her I suppose having given her my nickname and all.  

Anyway... moved on since then but I still remember.  That was my "hardening" perhaps.

I'm sorry if I brought back hurtful memories. I underestimate how much we can be affected personally by these things. I apologize for being so tactless.

Actually it feels really good to tell the tale and get it out of my blood.  I feel quite cleansed.  People who play know what it's and don't make fun of you for saying you got all crazy.    Thanks!

*grins*  My friends today were joking that they need to make an 'Alistair' card for Apples to Apples for me.  XD

I just a teeny bit obsessed.  I mean, hell, I cried over tmp's modded sacrifice scenes.

tmp:  I still wanna have your babies. 

[phaonica]

Asdara wrote...

Actually it feels really good to tell the tale and get it out of my blood.  I feel quite cleansed.  People who play know what it's and don't make fun of you for saying you got all crazy.    Thanks!

No, you aren't crazy. I've cried for hours after reading certain books and fanfics. They can really get to you.

[Kryyptehk]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Kryyptehk wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Kryyptehk wrote...

Uhhh, sorry to be off topic but...

KoP! That's not TIM! WTF is wrong with you??? I don't even--

Ahem. [Insert argument]

That's TIM's twin brother, David Xanatos!

Plus, I now have a goatee and a similar hairstyle, so I figured I should have a more appropriate avatar

That new avatar just reinforces my idea that you are an evil mastermind. And makes me question my inclusion in the KoP fanclub. Hmmmm... -revises theories-

[insert Alistair/Loghain argument]

Technically, David Xanatos becomes a pseudo good guy in the Gargoyles series.

Plus, he is just as badass as TIM.

Pfft, I'll take your word for it.

[tmp7704]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

It's not waving away or ignoring. It's just believing that with Loghain under his watch, he will not be as a potential threat as Alistair going off to God knows where, while he hates you and all those involved in the Landsmeet.

If Loghain is made a Warden, and is being watched closely, he would not be as a potential threat as Alistair going off outside your sight. At least, that's a valid position and I do not see it as illogical.

I suppose as long as you intend to keep Loghain chained to a spot 24/7 and/or under permanent observation, controlling where he goes and whom he meets that may be valid line of reasoning. Although i can't help but consider it quite a waste of resources just to make a man you aren't going to trust a Warden.

Furthermore, Loghain demonstrated that he would not betray Ferelden and if you believe his realisation that only you can save it to be sincere, then that is reason enough to trust him.

Loghain demonstrated that he has no problem betraying and exterminating Ferelden's own, which undermines attempts of basing trust in him onto this particular supposed dedication of his.

And no, Alsitair saying sorry right in the middle of deserting obviously won't work.

And yet Loghain saying sorry in middle of the attempt to get your collective heads looped off for treason does. Merely because he lost one round and suddenly saw the light when the alternative was death.

Different situations between someone apologising during the deed and after. Loghain's apology could be sincere, and it could not. But Alistair's apology right in the middle of deserting could not be seen as sincere.

I think it can depend on the delivery -- clearly, Loghain's was good enough to grant him trust after all. What if Alistair said "I'm sorry, we don't see eye to eye anymore and so i no longer want to be part of this", would that still not possibly be sincere? You don't think he could be indeed sorry that you fell apart like this?

[KnightofPhoenix]

tmp7704 wrote...
I suppose as long as you intend to keep Loghain chained to a spot 24/7 and/or under permanent observation, controlling where he goes and whom he meets that may be valid line of reasoning. Although i can't help but consider it quite a waste of resources just to make a man you aren't going to trust a Warden.

No need for exagerration. But the line "keep your enemies closer" comes to mind.
There are more ways to make sure Loghain does not betray you when he is close comapred to Alsitair being outside your sight and angered at you.

tmp7704 wrote...
Loghain demonstrated that he has no problem betraying and exterminating Ferelden's own, which undermines attempts of basing trust in him onto this particular supposed dedication of his.

In your opinion. But one can trust him based on this alone and that trust would ultimately be well placed. While your msitrust, while valid, is misplaced.

tmp7704 wrote...
And yet Loghain saying sorry in middle of the attempt to get your collective heads looped off for treason does. Merely because he lost one round and suddenly saw the light when the alternative was death.

No, he said it after he lost and no, he had no problem dying, that much is clear. He admitted that you are Ferelden's only hope before Riordan came up with the alternative to execution.

tmp7704 wrote...
I think it can depend on the delivery -- clearly, Loghain's was good enough to grant him trust after all. What if Alistair said "I'm sorry, we don't see eye to eye anymore and so i no longer want to be part of this", would that still not possibly be sincere? You don't think he could be indeed sorry that you fell apart like this?

It could be sincere, it still not changing the fact that he is deserting nor that he is changing his mind. Loghain on the otherhand not only apologises, but realises that he is wrong.
So no, that's not a valid hypothetical.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 07 juin 2010 - 01:53 .

[tmp7704]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

No, he said it after he lost and no, he had no problem dying, that much is clear. He admitted that you are Ferelden's only hope before Riordan came up with the alternative to execution.

Hmm you know, i can't remember how exactly it went and i'm too lazy to check, and that actually rings a bell. So i'm going to concede it's a good point. It does appear Loghain literally had some sense beaten into him there and i suppose you could believe he had change of heart based on that.

Whether it'd be enough to be willing to spare him i don't know, and i think a mistrustful character would still off him just to be sure, but maybe we just have somewhat different ideas of the person who gets to make this call and so for you it's more plausible than it seems for me.

[KnightofPhoenix]

I haven't actually made a character like that. Not yet at least. But I can imagine someone being like that. And people usually always have small inconsistencies that make sense to them alone I guess.

Perhaps that Warden could have developped a further mistrust towards Alistair when he declared his intention to get the crown also? Because that Warden could believe that wardens should not be politically ambitious, or else that would compromie their position in Ferelden again, a la Sophia Dryden.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 07 juin 2010 - 02:10 .