965 réponses à ce sujet

[Xandurpein]

klarabella wrote...

I do have a human noble who will spare Loghain despite being in love with Alistair. Their relationship is anything but puppies and rainbows for she already sided with the Templars and killed Isolde. He will probably ask himself why he is even attracted to a stubborn, pragmatic woman like her. ;-) She won't plan on making him king because she thinks Anora will do fine. She's the GW type who gives up name and title and doesn't think Alistair can be king and a Warden. Hardened Alistair will not be happy about her plans ... especially when she considers Riordan's suggestion a moment too long. Alistair will try to grab the throne, she will object and choose Anora, save his life and let him go. And she will be furious at him for trying to grab the throne and for leaving and at herself for not being able to foresee this. She should have, she knew him. Everything will go well without him and she will still wonder why she didn't simply off Loghain. It's not like she is the merciful kind or appreciated him, he simply seemed useful and he was, but he never seemed to genuinely regret what he had done.

I also roleplayed my other human noble like this. She and Alistair had a big fight about the Landsmeet, about if a GW can be king and what to do with Loghain and Anora. She let Alistair fight, he ignored the rules of the duel, she made him king anyway ... and made herself queen. Both will accept the outcome but she will always wonder if killing Loghain was the right thing to do.

It's also my way to ensure that my Warden is no Mary Sues. I love to side against them (and ignore that she is adressed only, I pretend they ackowledge that there are two Wardens who are supported by their party).
They go to the tower and rescue everyone? You were lucky, it was a high risk. Nothing to celebrate.
They use blood magic? What kind of person are you? Isolde may have caused a lot of trouble but who are you to sacrifice her?

The above, to me, illustrates that you can't simply treat the question of sparing Loghain as a question of good vs evil. There lots of reasons that a decent well meaning warden could want to spare him and as many reasons why a decent well meaning Warden would decide to kill him. Just as there are reasons why an selfish cold hearted Warden would either spare or kill Loghain.

A lot depends on assumptions that really don't fall into the scale of good or evil. There is no "good" and "evil" choice, in deciding if your character views being a Grey Warden as a form of punishment or a great honor, but that choice will greatly impact on how you view making Loghain a warden.

[Tirigon]

Not to tell you how to RP, but I don´t understand the following 2 reasons:

Giggles_Manically wrote...
My Mage spared Loghain because he was not about to murder someone in cold blood, just to appease someone.

I always lol at such explanations. How many kills did your mage get during the game? Mine has usually between 1500 and 2000. In that light it seems ridiculous to spare a guy like Loghain because you don´t like murdering people.

My Noble spared Loghain because he believed in redemption, and giving people the chance to redeem themselves, aka Sten, Leliana, Zevran, Shale, Oghern.

What do your companions have to redeem themselves for? I tend to recruit them for their uses, except for Zevran whom I recruit for his smooth talk during investigating him.

Modifié par Tirigon, 07 juin 2010 - 12:41 .

[Giggles_Manically]

@Tirigon

Umm the difference for my mage is that Loghain was done and yielded, while none of your foes ever do that. Outside of the Blood MAge slaver he is very merciful.

Also everyone of your companions did something quite bad, or screwed their lives up quite badly. Maybe not Shale but the ones I listed did.

More to the point I am not blinded by my love of a certain litte bastard, that I lose sight of the fact the Wardens accept anyone no matter what they did. Alistair is an immature whiny brat even if he is hardened, so I have no sympathy for his little tantrum. It could also be that capital punishment is wrong, and MURDERING a man in cold blood in front of his only child is wrong. Thats just my two cents in the issue, you can go back to Alistair now... oh wait he leaves you, dumps you, or makes you his second fiddle never mind, unless he gets to bang a certain witch .

Giggles out.

Modifié par Giggles_Manically, 07 juin 2010 - 12:49 .

[Fishy]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

@Tirigon

Umm the difference for my mage is that Loghain was done and yielded, while none of your foes ever do that. Outside of the Blood MAge slaver he is very merciful.

Also everyone of your companions did something quite bad, or screwed their lives up quite badly. Maybe not Shale but the ones I listed did.

More to the point I am not blinded by my love of a certain litte bastard, that I lose sight of the fact the Wardens accept anyone no matter what they did. Alistair is an immature whiny brat even if he is hardened, so I have no sympathy for his little tantrum. It could also be that capital punishment is wrong, and MURDERING a man in cold blood in front of his only child is wrong. Thats just my two cents in the issue, you can go back to Alistair now... oh wait he leaves you, dumps you, or makes you his second fiddle never mind, unless he gets to bang a certain witch .

Giggles out.

Yeah but Loghain did more than that.He chased you for years like a rats and blamed you for everything he did.

[Xandurpein]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

More to the point I am not blinded by my love of a certain litte bastard, that I lose sight of the fact the Wardens accept anyone no matter what they did. Alistair is an immature whiny brat even if he is hardened, so I have no sympathy for his little tantrum. It could also be that capital punishment is wrong, and MURDERING a man in cold blood in front of his only child is wrong. Thats just my two cents in the issue, you can go back to Alistair now... oh wait he leaves you, dumps you, or makes you his second fiddle never mind, unless he gets to bang a certain witch .

I do so enjoy when people manage to show respect for those with different opinions.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Giggles_Manically wrote...


More to the point I am not blinded by my love of a certain litte bastard, that I lose sight of the fact the Wardens accept anyone no matter what they did. Alistair is an immature whiny brat even if he is hardened, so I have no sympathy for his little tantrum. It could also be that capital punishment is wrong, and MURDERING a man in cold blood in front of his only child is wrong. Thats just my two cents in the issue, you can go back to Alistair now... oh wait he leaves you, dumps you, or makes you his second fiddle never mind, unless he gets to bang a certain witch .

Giggles out.

You...have no sympathy for a guy who happened to get angry when the PC decides to not only let Loghain live, but make him Alistair's brother?

Remember that Loghain is the guy Alistair believes responsible for Duncan's death, and Duncan was the closest thing Alistair thought he had to true family. Loghain blamed Alistair (and the PC) for the massacre at Ostagar. He poisoned Eamon, Alistair's 'foster father'.

Whether or not the Wardens accept anyone, whether or not Loghain *deserves* death for his crimes or if it's right to kill him, Alistair has every reason to be *upset* that Loghain become a Grey Warden.

What if the Human Noble had Rendon Howe proposed as a Warden? Or the City Elf advised to take on Vaughan?

Some people might be able to suck it up, and good for them, but I think it would be perfectly understandable if they couldn't bear the idea of their family's killer or friend's rapist as their new comrade in arms.

[tmp7704]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

It could also be that capital punishment is wrong, and MURDERING a man in cold blood in front of his only child is wrong.

Public execution is considered normal part of politics in Ferelden. In fact, Loghain calls for exactly such execution of your own character, Alistair and Arl Eamon should you lose the voting in the Landsmeet, mere minutes before you get to decide about his fate. And Anora executes Alistair just few minutes later if she gets a chance.

As for the "i spare him because he yields and other NPCs don't give me such chance" ... now i wonder how many players would spare these other enemies if every defeated NPC did indeed yield too... but it'd mean getting no xp and no loot out of that NPC, should the player spare them 

Modifié par tmp7704, 07 juin 2010 - 01:26 .

[LadyDamodred]

By the end of the game, my PC has a lot of blood on her hands.  A lot.  Not to say she doesn't regret a lot of the death (she was very upset at the beginning of the game at having to kill people b/c there was no other option, ie peasants in Lothering), but to suddenly turn squeamish at the Landsmeet would be incredibly OOC for her.  She changes during the Blight, in some ways for the better and some ways for the worse.  It takes her awhile to get over what she sort of became, and she never goes back to who she was before Howe attacked Highever.

She also feels incredibly betrayed by Loghain, as she saw him as a childood hero.  That was shattered right after Ostagar and then he spent the whole game trying to kill her and the people she cares about.  And it was his fault.  He is the one what chose to call the Wardens enemies and hunt she and Alistair down.  She can't really forgive that.  Her general MO is "if people are going to die, let it be fighting the Blight" but Loghain is an exception.  There was more at stake at the Landsmeet than just that.  And there were so many reasons to have Loghain executed than just Alistair wanting him dead.

I will say, on my first playthrough when I didn't rp nearly as much, I had forgotten all the stuff Loghain ahd done to my character.  So I accepted his surrender.  And when Alistair freaked out, "After everythihng he's done?!" she was like "Oh my god, you're right!  Sorry!" and that was that.  *shrugs*

And I understand all of people's reasonings, and I think I'll just have to say that for me, they don't really work.  Again, it is all in how we like to rp and what fits with our personalities.  It's neither right or wrong.  it simply is.  Though I will say that trying to to the best and save everyone does not ncessarily make you a Mary Sue.  It's all in how you RP for me.

At work, atm, so I may not be able to respond to posts for several hours.  :/

[Tirigon]

Giggles_Manically wrote...


More to the point I am not blinded by my love of a certain litte bastard, that I lose sight of the fact the Wardens accept anyone no matter what they did. Alistair is an immature whiny brat even if he is hardened,

Aside the fact that the Wardens are a bunch of assclowns and when my PC is Warden Commander this "accept anyone" policy is going to get changed - doesn´t "anyone" include whiny brats?

[Tirigon]

tmp7704 wrote...

Public execution is considered normal part of politics in Ferelden. In fact, Loghain calls for exactly such execution of your own character, Alistair and Arl Eamon should you lose the voting in the Landsmeet, mere minutes before you get to decide about his fate.

And this is the main reason why, judging not by my characters but by my own morale, Loghain dies.
I mean, you wanted to have me executed, right? So go taste your own medicine and that´s it.:police:

[Giggles_Manically]

So... all of you feel perfectly fine beheading a man in cold blood in front of his daughter, without trial simply to make Alistair happy. Yah Im the heartless one. I do see it from his perspective and I would be upset to if as a noble they suggested it with Howe, however demanding the throne simply for revenge is pathetic. I showed restraint because murdering (like it or not that is what you are doing) an unarmed man is wrong and you should know that.



The Landsmeet disgusts me as a whole, everyone is trying to grab power when a blight is going on. I spared him when Riordian said there are compelling reasons, and I would take the senior wardens word over Alistair's, who at that moment was being an idiot. I can see that everyone has their own view and I am ok with that, to me showing mercy is a good thing and murder is a terrible thing. I apologize for my rudeness, I have been up since 4:30 and was being mean. However no one person in this game has a more correct stance on any descion, all are valid and allowed, and we should play how we want.



Giggles out.

[nos_astra]

Giggles_Manically wrote...
So... all of you feel perfectly fine beheading a man in cold blood in front of his daughter, without trial simply to make Alistair happy.

It doesn't occur to you that some characters simply want to see Loghain dead, without any input from Alistair? That they believe he deserves death? That they don't care about his usefulness because they are convinced they will do just fine without him? That they give a damn about what Riordan or Duncan think or would do because being a Warden means nothing to them if it is just an order of criminals and lunatics? Does this make them bad people? Or stupid? Or blind?

Oh and, the Landsmeet is Loghain's trial as I understand it. It's more of a trial than your PC or Alistair can expect if their execution is ordered.

Modifié par klarabella, 07 juin 2010 - 02:10 .

[Tirigon]

klarabella wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...
So... all of you feel perfectly fine beheading a man in cold blood in front of his daughter, without trial simply to make Alistair happy.

It doesn't occur to you that some characters simply want to see Loghain dead, without any input from Alistair? That they believe he deserves death? That they don't care about his usefulness because they are convinced they will do just fine without him? That they give a damn about what Riordan or Duncan think or would do because being a Warden means nothing to them if it is just an order of criminals and lunatics? Does this make them bad people? Or stupid? Or blind?

Oh and, the Landsmeet is Loghain's trial as I understand it. It's more of a trial than your PC or Alistair can expect if their execution is ordered.

Yea, this.

Also, the guy you are about to "murder" wanted to kill you only a minute ago. I rarely spare anyone who surrenders, and in strategy games like Total War I always execute prisoners.
Why?
Because I think it´s insane to let people live who tried to kill you. They attack me, they are either better fighters and I´m dead, or they are dead. That easy:police:

[Giggles_Manically]

You know what I give up the Alistair fan girls can take this thread, I tire of making a point only for it to be ignored. Know what play however you want its just a game,I really dont care and we are arguing about RP issues. Have fun with your game, and I will have fun with mine. Peace.

[Xandurpein]

klarabella wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...
So... all of you feel perfectly fine beheading a man in cold blood in front of his daughter, without trial simply to make Alistair happy.

It doesn't occur to you that some characters simply want to see Loghain dead, without any input from Alistair? That they believe he deserves death? That they don't care about his usefulness because they are convinced they will do just fine without him? That they give a damn about what Riordan or Duncan think or would do because being a Warden means nothing to them if it is just an order of criminals and lunatics? Does this make them bad people? Or stupid? Or blind?

Oh and, the Landsmeet is Loghain's trial as I understand it. It's more of a trial than your PC or Alistair can expect if their execution is ordered.

The single combat is the trial really. That's why it's called trial by combat. Admittedly, the whole Landsmeet scene is really jumbled, and the PC misses the whole start when thery explain what it is they are actually voting for, but the vote is really about accpting or condemning Loghain's grab for power as Regent. If he looses, then he was in the wrong and, again in an awkward matter, the PC is left to decide what punishment he is to be given.

[Tirigon]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

You know what I give up the Alistair fan girls can take this thread, I tire of making a point only for it to be ignored. Know what play however you want its just a game,I really dont care and we are arguing about RP issues. Have fun with your game, and I will have fun with mine. Peace.

Noone ignored your point, we simply stated our point.

But if you don´t want a discussion, go ahead, noone forces you to participate.

Make love not war.

[Giggles_Manically]

The Landsmeet is so unclear, apparently it was to be done differently, but that is what happens when EA kicks a game out the door early.

[Xandurpein]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

You know what I give up the Alistair fan girls can take this thread, I tire of making a point only for it to be ignored. Know what play however you want its just a game,I really dont care and we are arguing about RP issues. Have fun with your game, and I will have fun with mine. Peace.

You tends to get about as much respect as you show others. Just saying...

[Tirigon]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

The Landsmeet is so unclear, apparently it was to be done differently, but that is what happens when EA kicks a game out the door early.

Well I think by now it´s common knowledge that the Landsmeet is utter crap that was done in a way to produce a damned tragedy and important decisions where really none are.

But, sadly, we have to put up with it.

[nos_astra]

Xandurpein wrote...
The single combat is the trial really. That's why it's called trial by combat. Admittedly, the whole Landsmeet scene is really jumbled, and the PC misses the whole start when thery explain what it is they are actually voting for, but the vote is really about accpting or condemning Loghain's grab for power as Regent. If he looses, then he was in the wrong and, again in an awkward matter, the PC is left to decide what punishment he is to be given.

I see. And honestly, I'm glad jurisdiction doesn't work this way in reality. <_<

Edit:
I don't really like the way the Landsmeet is done. If I was going to write the story for my two canon nobles I'd probably rewrite it. I like discussing it, though. I learn something new every time.

Modifié par klarabella, 07 juin 2010 - 02:37 .

[Giggles_Manically]

Originally DA:O was going to come out in the spring, not in November. Most people believe EA just wanted it out for the Holidays, and to go along with the console time line better. Yet another reason to hate EA I guess.

[Tirigon]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Originally DA:O was going to come out in the spring, not in November. Most people believe EA just wanted it out for the Holidays, and to go along with the console time line better. Yet another reason to hate EA I guess.

What? I didn´t know you needed REASONS to hate EA.  I thought hating EA was just something every gamer does by nature, just like every human breathes.....:innocent::innocent::innocent:

[Giggles_Manically]

The only thing I am looking forward to is the next medal of honor game, besides that EA is fueled by souls of puppies and kittens as far as I am concerned. If you look at the toolset, and mods that repair some things, DA was going to be so much better in so many areas. I am currently getting a list from my cousin about the best mods, and he promised me that it makes the game so much better. There is apparently twice as much banter, than what was implemented.

[Addai]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

So... all of you feel perfectly fine beheading a man in cold blood in front of his daughter, without trial simply to make Alistair happy.

Hey, way to miss the point and be completely condescending in one neat package.

Internetz approve +10

Modifié par Addai67, 07 juin 2010 - 02:59 .

[Elizabeth]

heres a thought how would you feel if any of our men quit the feild durring battle? just an f.y.i.