965 réponses à ce sujet

[Costin_Razvan]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Originally DA:O was going to come out in the spring, not in November. Most people believe EA just wanted it out for the Holidays, and to go along with the console time line better. Yet another reason to hate EA I guess.

Now THAT I would have wanted...perhaps we would have gotten a far more polished game then this.

[Giggles_Manically]

Yah apparently it made a lot of people angry at Bioware since they had to drop a lot of things:

-The Dark Ritual got gutted

-A lot of the Banter was dropped

-A lot of dialouge is unimplemented (modded)

-More items were to be used

-Loghain has a section in the fade

-Unimplemented Cutscenes



While this does happen to a lot of games, Bioware lost months of time they were going to use to polish the game.

[Xandurpein]

klarabella wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...
The single combat is the trial really. That's why it's called trial by combat. Admittedly, the whole Landsmeet scene is really jumbled, and the PC misses the whole start when thery explain what it is they are actually voting for, but the vote is really about accpting or condemning Loghain's grab for power as Regent. If he looses, then he was in the wrong and, again in an awkward matter, the PC is left to decide what punishment he is to be given.

I see. And honestly, I'm glad jurisdiction doesn't work this way in reality. <_<

Edit:
I don't really like the way the Landsmeet is done. If I was going to write the story for my two canon nobles I'd probably rewrite it. I like discussing it, though. I learn something new every time.

I really do agree with both your points. My guess is that the reason you are forced to decide Loghain's fate AND execute it right then and there if you choose to kill him, is that his fate needs to be decided right away or it would be impossible to have the outcome where Anora and Alistair marries. It would be civil war, because once they get the throne, the decision is theirs, not the PC's anymore.

[Elhanan]

One minor regret is all the whine that pours from his future highness even after being Hardened. If there was ever an incentive to bust his chops with this line, it would be the knowledge that this would subdue his complaints over ripped shirts and itching wounds.

[KnightofPhoenix]

The thing is, the terms of the duel were clear. "A trial by single combat, until one party yields". It does not say "until one party is killed". Technically, it's outside the boundaries of the duel to kill Loghain when he yields. However, it can be argued that it's not outside the informal power we have in the Landsmeet.

EDIT: this post is  not targetted at the above (which is a great post). Just a general observation.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 07 juin 2010 - 04:17 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Caladhiel wrote... 
But have you noticed that not even Anora protests when you're on the verge of executing Loghain? 

Eum, that is not true. It's actually heartbreaking seeing that scene, with Anora protesting and Loghain telling her to let go.

That happens if you don't kill him right after the duel. And even if you do, you see Anora dropping on her knees. So it's not like she is ok with it.

[KnightofPhoenix]

At that point, the law isn't with anyone. At the risk of hyperbolizing, the PC is the Law at that moment.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

At that point, the law isn't with anyone. At the risk of hyperbolizing, the PC is the Law at that moment.

The Landsmeet.  Fereldan law never lies with an individual, not even the king or queen.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

At that point, the law isn't with anyone. At the risk of hyperbolizing, the PC is the Law at that moment.

The Landsmeet.  Fereldan law never lies with an individual, not even the king or queen.

The Landsmeet lets you do whatever you want. You choose the King or Queen. You choose to execute Loghain or not. And they don't say anything.

In fact, you can lose the Landsmeet and still get your way.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 07 juin 2010 - 04:41 .

[Asdara]

Also, just to throw some sand in the gears - I really felt like the Landsmeet and how it goes should have a little more throwback to who and what your Warden is. Even though we're still The Warden by that point, I would imagine that the snooty nobles would be less inclined to listen to say, an elf or a dwarf than they would a Cousland turned Warden about Loghain's fate. Probably a lot to ask from a "creating the game" standpoint.

[maxernst]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The thing is, the terms of the duel were clear. "A trial by single combat, until one party yields". It does not say "until one party is killed". Technically, it's outside the boundaries of the duel to kill Loghain when he yields. However, it can be argued that it's not outside the informal power we have in the Landsmeet.

EDIT: this post is  not targetted at the above (which is a great post). Just a general observation.

But doesn't the outcome of the combat mean that Loghain has been found guilty of treason?  I would be very surprised if Ferelden law does not impose the death penalty for treason, with the exception of the loophole provided by the right of conscription.  I suppose that if Anora were recognized as Queen, she may be able to issue a pardon, if he's not executed on the spot.

[KnightofPhoenix]

maxernst wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The thing is, the terms of the duel were clear. "A trial by single combat, until one party yields". It does not say "until one party is killed". Technically, it's outside the boundaries of the duel to kill Loghain when he yields. However, it can be argued that it's not outside the informal power we have in the Landsmeet.

EDIT: this post is  not targetted at the above (which is a great post). Just a general observation.

But doesn't the outcome of the combat mean that Loghain has been found guilty of treason?  I would be very surprised if Ferelden law does not impose the death penalty for treason, with the exception of the loophole provided by the right of conscription.  I suppose that if Anora were recognized as Queen, she may be able to issue a pardon, if he's not executed on the spot.

The main purpose of the duel is to reject Loghain's bid for regency.
Remember that if you use the "Loghain betrayed us at Ostagar" line, you lose points because the Landsmeet is not convinced.

So what they have against Loghain are his other actions, such as slavery, kidnapping Templars...etc. So it's not clear what his punishment would be under Ferelden law.

The reality waas, as Loghain said it, that the duel was simply to show who is leader. The leader dictates what the loser is.

[Kryyptehk]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

maxernst wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The thing is, the terms of the duel were clear. "A trial by single combat, until one party yields". It does not say "until one party is killed". Technically, it's outside the boundaries of the duel to kill Loghain when he yields. However, it can be argued that it's not outside the informal power we have in the Landsmeet.

EDIT: this post is  not targetted at the above (which is a great post). Just a general observation.

But doesn't the outcome of the combat mean that Loghain has been found guilty of treason?  I would be very surprised if Ferelden law does not impose the death penalty for treason, with the exception of the loophole provided by the right of conscription.  I suppose that if Anora were recognized as Queen, she may be able to issue a pardon, if he's not executed on the spot.

The main purpose of the duel is to reject Loghain's bid for regency.
Remember that if you use the "Loghain betrayed us at Ostagar" line, you lose points because the Landsmeet is not convinced.

So what they have against Loghain are his other actions, such as slavery, kidnapping Templars...etc. So it's not clear what his punishment would be under Ferelden law.

The reality waas, as Loghain said it, that the duel was simply to show who is leader. The leader dictates what the loser is.

Wow, that is really the rule? Whoever can beat a person in a duel can decide the fate of the nation? One day from barbarism indeed<_<

Though I think we should have dueled Anora, since she wanted to be Queen. 'Twould be 10x more interesting:P

[Xandurpein]

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

At that point, the law isn't with anyone. At the risk of hyperbolizing, the PC is the Law at that moment.

The Landsmeet.  Fereldan law never lies with an individual, not even the king or queen.

True, but at that particular moment, for reasons which aren't particularily clear, the Landsmeet will follow the PC, within certain limits.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Xandurpein wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

At that point, the law isn't with anyone. At the risk of hyperbolizing, the PC is the Law at that moment.

The Landsmeet.  Fereldan law never lies with an individual, not even the king or queen.

True, but at that particular moment, for reasons which aren't particularily clear, the Landsmeet will follow the PC, within certain limits.

I think it's because you are the head of an army, who just beat the head of the other army.
The Landsmeet is a neat idea, but in practise it nowhere near comes close to a complete Rule of Law type system. Not yet at least.

@ Kryyptehk.
Might makes Right at its finest.
The Landsmeet can vote against you, you can kill a few people, fight Loghain, beat him down and then reverse whatever the Landsmeet decided.  

[Xandurpein]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Caladhiel wrote... 
But have you noticed that not even Anora protests when you're on the verge of executing Loghain? 

Eum, that is not true. It's actually heartbreaking seeing that scene, with Anora protesting and Loghain telling her to let go.

That happens if you don't kill him right after the duel. And even if you do, you see Anora dropping on her knees. So it's not like she is ok with it.

It could be argued that, under some circumstances this is Loghain's finest moment, more so even than if he kills the Archdemon. If you let Alistair marry Anora, then this is a point when the whole deal could break down, with risk of civil war even, but Loghain talks Anora down and accepts his fate. This time there is no doubt that Loghain does it for the glory or to preserve his reputation. He accepts his fate as a branded traitor, to preserve Ferelden. That is at least how I see it. 

[phaonica]

Xandurpein wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

At that point, the law isn't with anyone. At the risk of hyperbolizing, the PC is the Law at that moment.

The Landsmeet.  Fereldan law never lies with an individual, not even the king or queen.

True, but at that particular moment, for reasons which aren't particularily clear, the Landsmeet will follow the PC, within certain limits.

Yes, I think its fair to say that the PC is the one making the decisions, and the Landsmeet has agreed that it is obligated to follow the PC, however just because you are obligated to follow doesn't mean you agree and it is still not a good idea to do something the landsmeet would disapprove of. (otherwise you're bound to be looking at more civil war later). I'd tend to choose my choices differently depending on whether or not I actually won the Landsmeet.

Modifié par phaonica, 07 juin 2010 - 05:03 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Xandurpein wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Caladhiel wrote... 
But have you noticed that not even Anora protests when you're on the verge of executing Loghain? 

Eum, that is not true. It's actually heartbreaking seeing that scene, with Anora protesting and Loghain telling her to let go.

That happens if you don't kill him right after the duel. And even if you do, you see Anora dropping on her knees. So it's not like she is ok with it.

It could be argued that, under some circumstances this is Loghain's finest moment, more so even than if he kills the Archdemon. If you let Alistair marry Anora, then this is a point when the whole deal could break down, with risk of civil war even, but Loghain talks Anora down and accepts his fate. This time there is no doubt that Loghain does it for the glory or to preserve his reputation. He accepts his fate as a branded traitor, to preserve Ferelden. That is at least how I see it. 

Indeed. Despite how heart wrenching the execution scene is, and how it would be considered a judicial disaster by our standarts, I think Loghain died with honor and dignity. The good of Ferelden being the last thing he thinks about before letting go.

Made me quite misty eyed actually

[phaonica]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

It could be argued that, under some circumstances this is Loghain's finest moment, more so even than if he kills the Archdemon. If you let Alistair marry Anora, then this is a point when the whole deal could break down, with risk of civil war even, but Loghain talks Anora down and accepts his fate. This time there is no doubt that Loghain does it for the glory or to preserve his reputation. He accepts his fate as a branded traitor, to preserve Ferelden. That is at least how I see it. 

Indeed. Despite how heart wrenching the execution scene is, and how it would be considered a judicial disaster by our standarts, I think Loghain died with honor and dignity. The good of Ferelden being the last thing he thinks about before letting go.

Made me quite misty eyed actually

Agreed. The first time I saw it, I was sure I'd made a huge mistake.

[Kryyptehk]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Caladhiel wrote... 
But have you noticed that not even Anora protests when you're on the verge of executing Loghain? 

Eum, that is not true. It's actually heartbreaking seeing that scene, with Anora protesting and Loghain telling her to let go.

That happens if you don't kill him right after the duel. And even if you do, you see Anora dropping on her knees. So it's not like she is ok with it.

It could be argued that, under some circumstances this is Loghain's finest moment, more so even than if he kills the Archdemon. If you let Alistair marry Anora, then this is a point when the whole deal could break down, with risk of civil war even, but Loghain talks Anora down and accepts his fate. This time there is no doubt that Loghain does it for the glory or to preserve his reputation. He accepts his fate as a branded traitor, to preserve Ferelden. That is at least how I see it. 

Indeed. Despite how heart wrenching the execution scene is, and how it would be considered a judicial disaster by our standarts, I think Loghain died with honor and dignity. The good of Ferelden being the last thing he thinks about before letting go.

Made me quite misty eyed actually

Misty eyed, really? To be honest, I found the whole thing comical. The blood getting on Anora seemed like Crossing the Line Twice, not a tragic thing. I understand the implication and all that, but I laughed out loud when it happened.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Kryyptehk wrote...
Misty eyed, really? To be honest, I found the whole thing comical. The blood getting on Anora seemed like Crossing the Line Twice, not a tragic thing. I understand the implication and all that, but I laughed out loud when it happened.

Well I was immersed enough to nearly cry. I didn't find anything abgout the Landsmeet amusing, except Alistair's "I don't want to be king, but to kill Loghain, I will".

[Kryyptehk]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Kryyptehk wrote...
Misty eyed, really? To be honest, I found the whole thing comical. The blood getting on Anora seemed like Crossing the Line Twice, not a tragic thing. I understand the implication and all that, but I laughed out loud when it happened.

Well I was immersed enough to nearly cry. I didn't find anything abgout the Landsmeet amusing, except Alistair's "I don't want to be king, but to kill Loghain, I will".

I was immersed too, and the blood flying on Anora thing pretty much broke immersion for me.

But as I said before, on my first playthrough, I wanted to kill Loghain. So that might be why.

[Xandurpein]

Kryyptehk wrote...

Misty eyed, really? To be honest, I found the whole thing comical. The blood getting on Anora seemed like Crossing the Line Twice, not a tragic thing. I understand the implication and all that, but I laughed out loud when it happened.

There so account for taste. What is immersive and tragic to some, can be seen as comical by others I suppose. Nothing wrong with that, as long as we are all respectful of one another's feelings.

My feelings, the first time I killed Loghain was close to those KoP described.