Sarah1281 wrote...
No, it's if you lose the vote but win the duel. The Landsmeet is on his side but agreed to follow the outcome of the duel and you won that. Why would the Landsmeet insist on killing him so that if you were inclined to spare him you'd have to conscript him to avoid having him executed?
I see. The duel resets the vote, however. The brawl after the PC loses the Landsmeet convinces everyone that even though the vote went for Loghain, the country is too fractured for him to actually hold the peace. Conceivably the duel could have the same messy result where the civil war just goes on, and in the "real" world it might well have. In the end, it is usually is the case that a coup is put to rest only when the leaders are put down one way or another. That is the rationale behind the Landsmeet accepting Loghain's execution even if he won the earlier vote, as far as I can see.Sarah1281 wrote...
No, it's if you lose the vote but win the duel. The Landsmeet is on his side but agreed to follow the outcome of the duel and you won that. Why would the Landsmeet insist on killing him so that if you were inclined to spare him you'd have to conscript him to avoid having him executed?
Modifié par Addai67, 07 juin 2010 - 10:13 .
Tirigon wrote...
Well sparing him just "for the fun" would be a political impossibility. After all, he DID desert the king at Ostagar - even if you judge his retreat as justified, it still led to Cailan´s death - AND he outlawed the Wardens.
You are made Commander and Alistair might even be king - how would that be possible if the man who declared you traitors is unpunished?
After all, no punishment implies that Loghain was right, and that again would imply that you ARE actually a traitor, what would make it impossible to give you the rank you need to command the armies against the Blight.
Edit because I forgot at first: You need to punish Loghain SOMEHOW - even if it´s only joining the Wardens what can also be seen as honor - because otherwise you send the message: "It´s ok to mess with the Commander and his royal friend and to try to kill them, these weaklings will just forgive you"
Of course this is not your intentions, but this is how it will seem to possible opposition.
Addai67 wrote...
I see. The duel resets the vote, however. The brawl after the PC loses the Landsmeet convinces everyone that even though the vote went for Loghain, the country is too fractured for him to actually hold the peace. Conceivably the duel could have the same messy result where the civil war just goes on, and in the "real" world it might well have. In the end, it is usually is the case that a coup is put to rest only when the leaders are put down one way or another. That is the rationale behind the Landsmeet accepting Loghain's execution even if he won the earlier vote, as far as I can see.
phaonica wrote...
If he wins the Landsmeet, though, does that not mean that the nobility does not think that he was wrong?
Addai67 wrote...
I see. The duel resets the vote, however. The brawl after the PC loses the Landsmeet convinces everyone that even though the vote went for Loghain, the country is too fractured for him to actually hold the peace. Conceivably the duel could have the same messy result where the civil war just goes on, and in the "real" world it might well have. In the end, it is usually is the case that a coup is put to rest only when the leaders are put down one way or another. That is the rationale behind the Landsmeet accepting Loghain's execution even if he won the earlier vote, as far as I can see.Sarah1281 wrote...
No, it's if you lose the vote but win the duel. The Landsmeet is on his side but agreed to follow the outcome of the duel and you won that. Why would the Landsmeet insist on killing him so that if you were inclined to spare him you'd have to conscript him to avoid having him executed?
Tirigon wrote...
phaonica wrote...
If he wins the Landsmeet, though, does that not mean that the nobility does not think that he was wrong?
Even more reason for you to punish him. You must show that he WAS wrong, or everyone will think you´re a treacherous Orlaisian Bastard trying to occupy Ferelden. Because that´s what Loghain wants the nobles to believe.
So you MUST show them he´s wrong. You can´t have mercy on him without destroying your own position, even if you think you should.
Tirigon wrote...
phaonica wrote...
If he wins the Landsmeet, though, does that not mean that the nobility does not think that he was wrong?
Even more reason for you to punish him. You must show that he WAS wrong, or everyone will think you´re a treacherous Orlaisian Bastard trying to occupy Ferelden. Because that´s what Loghain wants the nobles to believe.
So you MUST show them he´s wrong. You can´t have mercy on him without destroying your own position, even if you think you should.
The brawl consists of the Landsmeet, or at least part of it. It is not just your party fighting but also Alfstanna, Bryland, Redcliffe soldiers, etc.Xandurpein wrote...
Addai67 wrote...
I see. The duel resets the vote, however. The brawl after the PC loses the Landsmeet convinces everyone that even though the vote went for Loghain, the country is too fractured for him to actually hold the peace. Conceivably the duel could have the same messy result where the civil war just goes on, and in the "real" world it might well have. In the end, it is usually is the case that a coup is put to rest only when the leaders are put down one way or another. That is the rationale behind the Landsmeet accepting Loghain's execution even if he won the earlier vote, as far as I can see.Sarah1281 wrote...
No, it's if you lose the vote but win the duel. The Landsmeet is on his side but agreed to follow the outcome of the duel and you won that. Why would the Landsmeet insist on killing him so that if you were inclined to spare him you'd have to conscript him to avoid having him executed?
I think it's simply that if you loose the vote, but win the brawl, then you scare the Landsmeet into submission. The rest is just sugar coating the fact that you use arms to win the argument.
What else would you do? Let him go?phaonica wrote...
Addai67 wrote...
I see. The duel resets the vote, however. The brawl after the PC loses the Landsmeet convinces everyone that even though the vote went for Loghain, the country is too fractured for him to actually hold the peace. Conceivably the duel could have the same messy result where the civil war just goes on, and in the "real" world it might well have. In the end, it is usually is the case that a coup is put to rest only when the leaders are put down one way or another. That is the rationale behind the Landsmeet accepting Loghain's execution even if he won the earlier vote, as far as I can see.
But if they accept his execution because I won the duel, and I decide not to execute him, why would I have to conscript him? They are accepting the possibility of an execution, not demanding it.
Addai67 wrote...
What else would you do? Let him go?phaonica wrote...
Addai67 wrote...
I see. The duel resets the vote, however. The brawl after the PC loses the Landsmeet convinces everyone that even though the vote went for Loghain, the country is too fractured for him to actually hold the peace. Conceivably the duel could have the same messy result where the civil war just goes on, and in the "real" world it might well have. In the end, it is usually is the case that a coup is put to rest only when the leaders are put down one way or another. That is the rationale behind the Landsmeet accepting Loghain's execution even if he won the earlier vote, as far as I can see.
But if they accept his execution because I won the duel, and I decide not to execute him, why would I have to conscript him? They are accepting the possibility of an execution, not demanding it.
However he is in your custody as a Grey Warden, and able to fight the Blight (assuming he survives the Joining), which he would not be if he just sat in the Tower. If you're not going to execute him, it seems the most sensible thing to do. I think exile would be a reasonable alternative, but perhaps the devs just wanted to simplify the end game. Even Anora admits that he should be made to pay for his crimes in some fashion. There is a certain poetic justice to making him a Warden after he outlawed the Wardens. I personally think it is too good for him, of course.phaonica wrote...
Stick him in the tower. Exile him. Take him into my custody. I was just lamenting that the game itself seemed to suggest that the only reason I might have for sparing him was the "I need more GWs" argument. Or to say it another way, it was like the game itself saying "why on earth would you spare him, otherwise?" The choices given to you at that point do not seem to support the RP position that one might want to spare Loghain for reasons other than "we need more GWs". Obviously I can't expect the developers to support every RP decision a player might make, so it was just an observation.
Loghain happens to agree.Addai67 wrote...
However he is in your custody as a Grey Warden, and able to fight the Blight (assuming he survives the Joining), which he would not be if he just sat in the Tower. If you're not going to execute him, it seems the most sensible thing to do. I think exile would be a reasonable alternative, but perhaps the devs just wanted to simplify the end game. Even Anora admits that he should be made to pay for his crimes in some fashion. There is a certain poetic justice to making him a Warden after he outlawed the Wardens. I personally think it is too good for him, of course.phaonica wrote...
Stick him in the tower. Exile him. Take him into my custody. I was just lamenting that the game itself seemed to suggest that the only reason I might have for sparing him was the "I need more GWs" argument. Or to say it another way, it was like the game itself saying "why on earth would you spare him, otherwise?" The choices given to you at that point do not seem to support the RP position that one might want to spare Loghain for reasons other than "we need more GWs". Obviously I can't expect the developers to support every RP decision a player might make, so it was just an observation.
Well there you go.Sarah1281 wrote...
Loghain happens to agree.Addai67 wrote...
However he is in your custody as a Grey Warden, and able to fight the Blight (assuming he survives the Joining), which he would not be if he just sat in the Tower. If you're not going to execute him, it seems the most sensible thing to do. I think exile would be a reasonable alternative, but perhaps the devs just wanted to simplify the end game. Even Anora admits that he should be made to pay for his crimes in some fashion. There is a certain poetic justice to making him a Warden after he outlawed the Wardens. I personally think it is too good for him, of course.phaonica wrote...
Stick him in the tower. Exile him. Take him into my custody. I was just lamenting that the game itself seemed to suggest that the only reason I might have for sparing him was the "I need more GWs" argument. Or to say it another way, it was like the game itself saying "why on earth would you spare him, otherwise?" The choices given to you at that point do not seem to support the RP position that one might want to spare Loghain for reasons other than "we need more GWs". Obviously I can't expect the developers to support every RP decision a player might make, so it was just an observation.
I have to say that I appreciate that, whatever happens, he takes it like a man. There, you do see a bit of the TST Loghain. I wish that somewhere in there, someone asked him what his father would think of what he had done, however. That would be some emotional stuff.
Perhaps it is, but at the same time, it seems like there are plenty of opportunities in the game that allow the player to decide what the most sensible thing is, rather than dictate it to them.Addai67 wrote...
If you're not going to execute him, it seems the most sensible thing to do.
They probably did, and that's fair enough. What they did give is pretty awesome.but perhaps the devs just wanted to simplify the end game.
phaonica wrote...
Addai67 wrote...
but perhaps the devs just wanted to simplify the end game.
They probably did, and that's fair enough. What they did give is pretty awesome.
Modifié par Xandurpein, 08 juin 2010 - 07:06 .
Guest_Hanz54321_*
Giggles_Manically wrote...
How come Loghain can lost so long in the duel, yet in the final battle he keeps dying! Although he did kill 3 ogres in the market!
RP-wise he would probably refuse to wear them, wouldn't he?Costin_Razvan wrote...
Thats why mods exists so you can set Loghain's points yourself...However, if you get his approval to 90, then increase his strength with a few rings/amulet/trinket and then give him either Cailan's or Warden Commander's Armor then he becomes a powerhouse.
Arl Eamon is completely awesome, too. If you have the right mods interfering he tries to beat the Archdemon to death with bare hands.Hanz54321 wrote...
Giggles_Manically wrote...
How come Loghain can lost so long in the duel, yet in the final battle he keeps dying! Although he did kill 3 ogres in the market!
That is a technical question, not lore. But yes, I was a bit suprised too to find out what a total wuss Loghain is compared to my Alistair. Whenever I dueled him with Alistair, it was hard. I expected Loghain to be an upgrade in companions.
But nope.
Apparently the Loghain you duel loses all his mojo once you've publicly humiliated him.
Modifié par klarabella, 08 juin 2010 - 11:34 .
Guest_Hanz54321_*
Costin_Razvan wrote...
Thats why mods exists so you can set Loghain's points yourself...However, if you get his approval to 90, then increase his strength with a few rings/amulet/trinket and then give him either Cailan's or Warden Commander's Armor then he becomes a powerhouse.
Hanz54321 wrote...
Giggles_Manically wrote...
How come Loghain can lost so long in the duel, yet in the final battle he keeps dying! Although he did kill 3 ogres in the market!
That is a technical question, not lore. But yes, I was a bit suprised too to find out what a total wuss Loghain is compared to my Alistair. Whenever I dueled him with Alistair, it was hard. I expected Loghain to be an upgrade in companions.
But nope.
Apparently the Loghain you duel loses all his mojo once you've publicly humiliated him.
I was just pointing out the inconsistency in the original game does exist. It's like you chopped off his manhood. Creative minds might use the excuse that The Joining weakened him initially. It is poison after all.
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