965 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Yea sure. I guess every soldier can go to his captain and tell him "I have so much faith in you, that I will just leave knowing full well that you will win without me" and the Captain ought to have a smile on his face. Please, that is not an argument.

You are assuming that your PC is his commanding officer.

Ok change scenario, just for the sake of argument.

Two soldiers and comrade at arms. One walks up to the other and tell him: "You are so good that I am confident that you can win this battle, despite the overwhelming odds, without me. So I am leaving. Bye bye". I am supposed to sympathise or respect this?

Sounds equally stupid.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ok change scenario, just for the sake of argument.

Two soldiers and comrade at arms. One walks up to the other and tell him: "You are so good that I am confident that you can win this battle, despite the overwhelming odds, without me. So I am leaving. Bye bye". I am supposed to sympathise or respect this?
 

If you're not his friend, probably not.

Modifié par Addai67, 06 juin 2010 - 07:48 .

[Merilsell]

BigBad wrote...

If anyone is his commanding officer, it
would be Riordan. The PC doesn't even have seniority over Alistair, much
less official ranking above his. You're only his leader because he
chooses to follow you. And when he chooses not to, you don't really have
any authority to pull rank.

^
This.

*grabs popcorn to watch the further development of this thread with baited breath* :x

Edit for adding the quote, I originally meant.

Modifié par Merilsell, 06 juin 2010 - 07:50 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

BigBad wrote...

If anyone is his commanding officer, it would be Riordan. The PC doesn't even have seniority over Alistair, much less official ranking above his. You're only his leader because he chooses to follow you. And when he chooses not to, you don't really have any authority to pull rank.

Other than the fact that the army gathered is under your command and that the Landsmeet puts you as commander of all of Ferelden and the coalition's armies. And let's forget that fact that this means Alistair is deserting Riordan then.

But, again, nevermind. Let's assume you and Alistair are equals. Still does not make your argument any smarter, no offense.

[Demx]

BigBad wrote...

If anyone is his commanding officer, it would be Riordan. The PC doesn't even have seniority over Alistair, much less official ranking above his. You're only his leader because he chooses to follow you. And when he chooses not to, you don't really have any authority to pull rank.

Yet with all respects to pulling ranks. You, as the PC, are not going to respect a man you leaves the entire Blight up to you, and waits until you get to Loghain to start showing any initiative of actual leadership abilities.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

BigBad wrote...

If anyone is his commanding officer, it would be Riordan. The PC doesn't even have seniority over Alistair, much less official ranking above his. You're only his leader because he chooses to follow you. And when he chooses not to, you don't really have any authority to pull rank.

Other than the fact that the army gathered is under your command and that the Landsmeet puts you as commander of all of Ferelden and the coalition's armies. And let's forget that fact that this means Alistair is deserting Riordan then.
 

Riordan is not your commanding officer, either.  He doesn't even try to be.  Pretty laissez-faire guy, all in all.  He's only the scout, after all.

The appointment of the PC as general happens only at the end of the Landsmeet, after all this is concluded.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ok change scenario, just for the sake of argument.

Two soldiers and comrade at arms. One walks up to the other and tell him: "You are so good that I am confident that you can win this battle, despite the overwhelming odds, without me. So I am leaving. Bye bye". I am supposed to sympathise or respect this?
 

If you're not his friend, probably not.

Oh, because a friend leaving me in battle, because he is supposedely confidant in my abilities, is supposed to make me feel better?
If anything it makes it worse. Not sayign I considered him a friend. But if I did, I would expect him to watch my back and not abandon me like this. And certainly not because of "Hey I think you are so awesome and I am so insignificant that I am leaving".  

[Herr Uhl]

Merilsell wrote...

*grabs popcorn to watch the further development of this thread with baited breath* :x

Freudian slip?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

The appointment of the PC as general happens only at the end of the Landsmeet, after all this is concluded.

The whole point of the Landsmeet, other than dealign with the civil war, is appointing the Warden as commander. Even Alsitair, if made as king, immediately makes the Warden general of the army.

But again, it's irrlevent. The argument is still stupid, no offense.

[BigBad]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Yea sure. I guess every soldier can go to his captain and tell him "I have so much faith in you, that I will just leave knowing full well that you will win without me" and the Captain ought to have a smile on his face. Please, that is not an argument.

You are assuming that your PC is his commanding officer.

Ok change scenario, just for the sake of argument.

Two soldiers and comrade at arms. One walks up to the other and tell him: "You are so good that I am confident that you can win this battle, despite the overwhelming odds, without me. So I am leaving. Bye bye". I am supposed to sympathise or respect this?

Sounds equally stupid.

Two soldiers and comrades-in-sarms. One walks up to the other and says, "Hey, you remember that guy that killed your last squad, nearly doomed the country, and is kind of a dick? Yeah, I think he should be our new point man because he has a really cool rep from the last war."  The second guy is supposed to embrace this decision and remain with his buddy while being forced to work with the guy he considers a devil in human form?

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
But if I did, I would expect him to watch my back and not abandon me like this. 

Oh, is that what you would expect of a friend and comrade??

Funnily enough, so does Alistair.

[Demx]

Don't get me started on Riordan; saying he will take the final blow and then turns around and does some suicidal move where he was bound to fall to his doom from the beginning.

[KnightofPhoenix]

BigBad wrote...
Two soldiers and comrades-in-sarms. One walks up to the other and says, "Hey, you remember that guy that killed your last squad, nearly doomed the country, and is kind of a dick? Yeah, I think he should be our new point man because he has a really cool rep from the last war."  The second guy is supposed to embrace this decision and remain with his buddy while being forced to work with the guy he considers a devil in human form?

No, he is supposed to either enlist with another unit, or go for another commander.
Not desert, because he supposedely feels that his buddy is good enough with or without him.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
But if I did, I would expect him to watch my back and not abandon me like this. 

Oh, is that what you would expect of a friend and comrade??

Funnily enough, so does Alistair.

Yes because disagreeing with his opinion is EXACTLY like leaving him to fight a war with overwheliming odds stacked against him on his own. Not to mention the country beign at stake.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 06 juin 2010 - 07:56 .

[nos_astra]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
But if I did, I would expect him to watch my back and not abandon me like this. 

Oh, is that what you would expect of a friend and comrade??

Funnily enough, so does Alistair.

Yes because disagreeing with his opinion is EXACTLY like leaving him to fight a war with overwheliming odds stacked against him on his own.

Just as you've been doing from the beginning. Only that now Loghain is taken care of, the civil war ends and you have an army gathered. It's not like he leaves you and Logghy all alone without any chance. One man more or less doesn't make that much of a difference.

[BigBad]

Not to mention, Alistair doesn't know that a Warden has to take the final blow on the Archdemon, so he doesn't see himself as significantly hurting the war effort by buggering off. Riordan says that there are compelling reasons to have as many Wardens on hand as possible, but he stays all cryptic about it when it would probably have been the one and only bit of information that would have made Alistair stay. Without that information, he's just another warrior to throw at the darkspawn, like everyone else in your party.

[Gilsa]

KoP -- just curious. After Alistair leaves the GW (I assume he is a drunk in your games rather than hitched to Anora), would your PC ever try to find Alistair again to give him a second chance? Loghain got his chance at redemption and I was wondering if Alistair's actions at Landsmeet were severe enough to not be offered the same opportunity.

[KnightofPhoenix]

klarabella wrote...
Just as you've been doing from the beginning. Only that now Loghain is taken care of, the civil war ends and you have an army gathered. It's not like he leaves you and Logghy all alone without any chance. One man more or less doesn't make that much of a difference.

Yes, that's a great logic. Individual soldiers, captains and sergeants should use that all the time. "Hey I am only one man, what difference would I make? I'll just leave and chill. Get drunk. Even if there is a high chance my country will be exterminated".

Other than the fact that's just complete insult ot his duty, it's also complete lack of self-respect. It's not an excuse, nor is it sufficient to generate any kind of sympathy from me. Not in the slightest.  
 

[Demx]

BigBad wrote...
Two soldiers and comrades-in-sarms. One walks up to the other and says, "Hey, you remember that guy that killed your last squad, nearly doomed the country, and is kind of a dick? Yeah, I think he should be our new point man because he has a really cool rep from the last war."  The second guy is supposed to embrace this decision and remain with his buddy while being forced to work with the guy he considers a devil in human form?

Remember all those war movies, where you see one of the American soldiers raping a civilian woman during battle? The good solider doesn't desert his post.He reports it to a higher ranking officer. One of three things normally happens:
The soldier that committed the crime is court-marshaled
The good soldier is told this is war, deal with it
The one who committed the crime is scolded, later takes his anger out on the good soldier, and during battle later on dies.

Modifié par Siradix, 06 juin 2010 - 08:07 .

[phaonica]

Gilsa wrote...

KoP -- just curious. After Alistair leaves the GW (I assume he is a drunk in your games rather than hitched to Anora), would your PC ever try to find Alistair again to give him a second chance? Loghain got his chance at redemption and I was wondering if Alistair's actions at Landsmeet were severe enough to not be offered the same opportunity.

I would. I would have looked for him after the Landsmeet to try to reconcile, and if I didn't find him, I would have looked for him after the Blight to help with Amaranthine. I think it is disappointing how he abandoned me during the Blight, but I would certainly give him another chance. Absolutely.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Gilsa wrote...

KoP -- just curious. After Alistair leaves the GW (I assume he is a drunk in your games rather than hitched to Anora), would your PC ever try to find Alistair again to give him a second chance? Loghain got his chance at redemption and I was wondering if Alistair's actions at Landsmeet were severe enough to not be offered the same opportunity.

In my Canon playthrough, Alistair is executed, because of his declared intent to desert (that's the only reason Arcturus allowed the execution to take place, otherwise he would have stood against it). 

But even if he was spared, my Cousland would be King Consort. why would he waste his time tryign to sreach for Alistair? Yes, he would deserve redemption. But Cousland would be way to busy to actively search for him.  

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
But if I did, I would expect him to watch my back and not abandon me like this. 

Oh, is that what you would expect of a friend and comrade??

Funnily enough, so does Alistair.

Yes because disagreeing with his opinion is EXACTLY like leaving him to fight a war with overwheliming odds stacked against him on his own. Not to mention the country beign at stake.

See, it's because you completely minimize and trivialize the other side of the issue- as a simple clash of opinions, a minor difference over strategy- that you can't even understand, let alone sympathize, with what Alistair does.

[BigBad]

Um, deserting the Wardens isn't even a crime. It's not like he's a soldier of the king's army. Riordan says outright that it doesn't matter if a Warden deserts because they'll all end up the same place, so it's probably safe to say that the Wardens definitely don't adhere to standard military protocol.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

In my Canon playthrough, Alistair is executed, because of his declared intent to desert (that's the only reason Arcturus allowed the execution to take place, otherwise he would have stood against it). 
 

You do realize how hypocritical this is, considering how you treat Loghain in comparison?

[Demx]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Gilsa wrote...

KoP -- just curious. After Alistair leaves the GW (I assume he is a drunk in your games rather than hitched to Anora), would your PC ever try to find Alistair again to give him a second chance? Loghain got his chance at redemption and I was wondering if Alistair's actions at Landsmeet were severe enough to not be offered the same opportunity.

In my Canon playthrough, Alistair is executed, because of his declared intent to desert (that's the only reason Arcturus allowed the execution to take place, otherwise he would have stood against it). 

But even if he was spared, my Cousland would be King Consort. why would he waste his time tryign to sreach for Alistair? Yes, he would deserve redemption. But Cousland would be way to busy to actively search for him.  

If you make him marry Anora, he uses it as a really obvious excuse to leave the party.