965 réponses à ce sujet

[Xandurpein]

Addai67 wrote...

 Ferelden is a loose confederation of free tribes and there is little that binds them other than a few cultural touchstones and some shared history.  Calenhad's legend is a powerful one of these.  Even though it is somewhat an illusion (Loghain was the brains behind Maric, for instance), it was Moira and later Maric who rallied the rebellion.  If you cede Theirin pre-eminence in the royal pecking order, then it becomes a squabble for who gets 2nd, 3rd, 4th or whichever spot ends up left standing when the dust settles.   Eamon wants to avoid a War of the Roses scenario.

I'm not an Eamon hater.  I don't think he's an idealist.  A royalist, yes, but not without good reasons.

Maybe it's knitpicking, but the War of the Roses was really about a war between two branches of the same royal bloodline. Both the house of York and Lancaster where of the Plantagenet bloodline, so the comparison isn't exactly apt.

Nor is it really true that Eamon's primary concern is avoiding civil war. Queen Anora and Eamon represent the two major political blocs in Ferelden, apart from Loghain. So if avoidnig civil war was his primary concern, he should be focused on how to broker an alliance with the Queen, rather than just push for Alistair as King.

He is is out to prepetuate the Therin blood line, not as a means so much as an end in itself, in my opinion. That doesn't make him a bad guy really. Depending on your personal feelings it might even make him sympathetic. In my opinion, he is just one of the vested interests the PC has to juggle in the game.

[Swoo]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

He just wants a puppet, what would have been fun was overthrowing Ferelden and installing yourseld as King! RazorFist on Rageaholic claimed to have done it but I think it is made up, But that would have been fun as an Mage, just announcing politely that Ferelden is now under your rule and taking all Sidious style. Thats what they should have done. Hehehe imagine doing that:
The Landsmeet is bickering about who will be king and then you can just throw it all out the door and become Emperor. That would have been a fun ending, ala Jade Empire/KOTOR style.

Honestly, that was one of my only gripes about the Landsmeet as a Human Noble. I wanted to take the crown sans Anora. I'm a Cousland, and rapidly on my way to becoming the Hero of Ferelden, and I've proven if a problem gets in my way, the problem gets dead. I like Anora anyways, but I just didn't like the insecurity and immediate power plays she starts with you to get the pecking order in place.

I just spared Loghain for the first time to get the Redeemer achievement and I have to say I'm gaining a lot of respect for him. Not only was Return to Ostragar tolerable, it was damn near enjoyable with him in the party to smack down Wynne's sucktitude. Hearing about him and the rose bush for his wife, and then the stories in camp, and I think him living may become a common occurance for me now.

I did respec him immediately though. Rah Summer Sword Tank.

[phaonica]

Xandurpein wrote...

Maybe it's knitpicking, but the War of the Roses was really about a war between two branches of the same royal bloodline. Both the house of York and Lancaster where of the Plantagenet bloodline, so the comparison isn't exactly apt.

To be fair, I'm not sure that we'd be able to come up with a comparison from real life that is *exactly* apt.

Nor is it really true that Eamon's primary concern is avoiding civil war. Queen Anora and Eamon represent the two major political blocs in Ferelden, apart from Loghain. So if avoidnig civil war was his primary concern, he should be focused on how to broker an alliance with the Queen, rather than just push for Alistair as King. He is is out to prepetuate the Therin blood line, not as a means so much as an end in itself, in my opinion.

 

If your only concern is stopping the civil war, then there is no reason to fight with Anora over the crown. Just give it to her and get her vote. But if you think that after the Blight, she isn't going to be a good Queen, then I can see someone challenging her for it. My character likes to consider at least one step beyond the current crisis, if possible, and was trying not to destroy any nation in the process of saving the others.

Stopping the civil war might be one's primary concern, but other concerns that one might have (such as preserving the Theirin bloodline) can determine how much risk one is willing to take to achieve multiple goals. How much risk is too much is judged by each individual character.

So with that in mind, I think someone like Eamon can challenge Anora for the crown and still claim that ending the civil war is their primary concern, just not their only one, and it doesn't  necessarily make them a bad person.
I didn't get the impression that Eamon was there to elevate himself, but that he wanted to preserve a legendary, and iconic bloodline, with the potential to rally the people, which I could certainly sympathize with.

That doesn't make him a bad guy really. Depending on your personal feelings it might even make him sympathetic. In my opinion, he is just one of the vested interests the PC has to juggle in the game.

Agreed.

[phaonica]

Swoo wrote...

I just spared Loghain for the first time to get the Redeemer achievement and I have to say I'm gaining a lot of respect for him. Not only was Return to Ostragar tolerable, it was damn near enjoyable with him in the party to smack down Wynne's sucktitude. Hearing about him and the rose bush for his wife, and then the stories in camp, and I think him living may become a common occurance for me now.

Yay!

[tmp7704]

Swoo wrote...

Honestly, that was one of my only gripes about the Landsmeet as a Human Noble. I wanted to take the crown sans Anora. I'm a Cousland, and rapidly on my way to becoming the Hero of Ferelden, and I've proven if a problem gets in my way, the problem gets dead.

That didn't work for Loghain who already was 'the hero of Ferelden' when he attempted his power grab. And a teyrn himself rather than just child of one. And father of currently reigning queen, to boot. And someone who also eliminates the problems dead. Compared to these credentials the PC is a mere wannabe, so it should be no surprise they don't even get such option.

Modifié par tmp7704, 09 juin 2010 - 09:58 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

phaonica wrote...
So with that in mind, I think someone like Eamon can challenge Anora for the crown and still claim that ending the civil war is their primary concern, just not their only one, and it doesn't  necessarily make them a bad person.
I didn't get the impression that Eamon was there to elevate himself, but that he wanted to preserve a legendary, and iconic bloodline, with the potential to rally the people, which I could certainly sympathize with.

I concur, I think Eamon was doing what he thought was best for the monarchy and that is to preserve the Therein bloodline.
I don't dislike Eamon for that. Even if he is a hypocrit who braggs about traditions and respect of the Landsmeet, only to call for a general onslaught if he loses. But at heart, I do not think he seeks personal elevation that much. 

What I do have against Eamon however is his treatment of Alistair. Talking about Alistair in 3rd person, right when he is in front of him, is a really poor way to convince me that Alistair should be king. He can't even get the respect of his most ardent supporter. And shoving the idea of being king right into the boy's throat even if he doesn't want it, which pushed him to idiocy in the Landsmeet (or contributed to it at least). That could potentially get him executed and we don't see Eamon fighting for him, or regretting anything (granted, could be game limitations).

But I think Eamon is a reasonable man really, if a bit uncaring towards the person who holds the Therein symbol. I think for Eamon, the Therein bloodline is more important than the actual individual or actual competence, which is typically royalist. But ultimately, he is willing to let that go, if it means the civil war is over and Ferelden survives. 

So yes, he might want a Therein on the throne. But I also think he wants to stop the civil war just as much if not more. Hence why we don't see him objecting after the Landsmeet regardless of choice, as it led to an end of the civil war. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 09 juin 2010 - 10:00 .

[Xandurpein]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

What I do have against Eamon however is his treatment of Alistair. Talking about Alistair in 3rd person, right when he is in front of him, is a really poor way to convince me that Alistair should be king. He can't even get the respect of his most ardent supporter. And shoving the idea of being king right into the boy's throat even if he doesn't want it, which pushed him to idiocy in the Landsmeet (or contributed to it at least). That could potentially get him executed and we don't see Eamon fighting for him, or regretting anything (granted, could be game limitations).

I agree wholeheartedly with this point really. This is where Eamon truly becomes a hypocrite in my mind. He claims that the country needs a Therin on the throne, as if that alone confers the ability to rule, but at the same time he has absolutley no confidence in Alistair's ability to rule.

Phaonica wrote...

If your only concern is stopping the civil war, then there is no reason to fight with Anora over the crown. Just give it to her and get her vote. But if you think that after the Blight, she isn't going to be a good Queen, then I can see  someone challenging her for it. My character likes to consider at least  one step beyond the current crisis, if possible, and was trying not to destroy any nation in the process of saving the others.

The by far most common reason for civil wars in the medieval monarchies, is when the current monarch was weak and unable to assert his (or her) authority. While we know that Alistair, if hardened, doesn't necessarily end up a weak King, it is made perfectly obvious in the game that Eamon thinks that Alistair will be a weak King. So Eamon really can't be said to be working to avert civil war, even in the long term. That is not saying a PC who, unlike Eamon, may believe that Alistair will become a good King can't reason like that.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 09 juin 2010 - 12:04 .

[tmp7704]

Xandurpein wrote...

While we know that Alistair, if hardened, doesn't necessarily end up a weak King, it is made perfectly obvious in the game that Eamon thinks that Alistair will be a weak King.

Actually, no. If you end the Landsmeet with Alistair as sole king, this is what he's got to say:

Eamon: I suppose it remains to be seen what sort of king Alistair will make. Personally I think the lad will do far better than he believes. (speaks of Alistair fondly)
Eamon: He is Maric's son, whether he sees it or not. He has a good heart. I can think of no better qualification.

he sees quite a few qualities in Alistair which make him a good candidate:

PC: Alistair doesn't know the first thing about being king.
Eamon: You're both wrong. With a few months of experience, Alistair will make a fine king. (firmly)
Eamon: He knows how to lead troops to defend his land. He knows how to stand and fight for justice. (patient)
Eamon: He knows how to show compassion to those less fortunate, and how to trust to the Maker's guidance to know right from wrong. (still patiently explaining)
Eamon: And he knows who to turn to for aid should that training fail him. He will be fine. (matter-of-factly, somewhat tactfully neglecting to mention that the person Alistair will turn to is him.)

you can ask him why he thinks it's so important to have Alistair on the throne:

PC: Why is it so important to put Maric's son on the throne?
Eamon: Ferelden was first united by Calenhad, the Silver Knight. For four hundred years, his descendants have ruled Ferelden.
Eamon: That was the heritage we preserved from the Orlesians, and it is the heritage I will fight for as long as one of Calenhad's descendants still lives. (firm)
Eamon: Without that to unite us, we could scatter back to warring teyrnirs.

basically, he considers it normal an inexperienced ruler would seek his guidance, but appears to consider Alistair to have all qualities to actually make a fine king, once he gets some experience. And the VO notes would indicate this is no ruse on Eamon's part, but something he truly believes.

[KnightofPhoenix]

tmp7704 wrote...

Eamon: That was the heritage we preserved from the Orlesians, and it is the heritage I will fight for as long as one of Calenhad's descendants still lives. [i](firm)

But he doesn't, when the last Therein is either exiled or executed. Why not?

I am curious, was something cut? Or is Eamon really supposed to stand by and just watch?

[Xandurpein]

tmp7704 wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

While we know that Alistair, if hardened, doesn't necessarily end up a weak King, it is made perfectly obvious in the game that Eamon thinks that Alistair will be a weak King.

Actually, no. If you end the Landsmeet with Alistair as sole king, this is what he's got to say:

Eamon: I suppose it remains to be seen what sort of king Alistair will make. Personally I think the lad will do far better than he believes. (speaks of Alistair fondly)
Eamon: He is Maric's son, whether he sees it or not. He has a good heart. I can think of no better qualification.

he sees quite a few qualities in Alistair which make him a good candidate:

PC: Alistair doesn't know the first thing about being king.
Eamon: You're both wrong. With a few months of experience, Alistair will make a fine king. (firmly)
Eamon: He knows how to lead troops to defend his land. He knows how to stand and fight for justice. (patient)
Eamon: He knows how to show compassion to those less fortunate, and how to trust to the Maker's guidance to know right from wrong. (still patiently explaining)
Eamon: And he knows who to turn to for aid should that training fail him. He will be fine. (matter-of-factly, somewhat tactfully neglecting to mention that the person Alistair will turn to is him.)

you can ask him why he thinks it's so important to have Alistair on the throne:

PC: Why is it so important to put Maric's son on the throne?
Eamon: Ferelden was first united by Calenhad, the Silver Knight. For four hundred years, his descendants have ruled Ferelden.
Eamon: That was the heritage we preserved from the Orlesians, and it is the heritage I will fight for as long as one of Calenhad's descendants still lives. (firm)
Eamon: Without that to unite us, we could scatter back to warring teyrnirs.

basically, he considers it normal an inexperienced ruler would seek his guidance, but appears to consider Alistair to have all qualities to actually make a fine king, once he gets some experience. And the VO notes would indicate this is no ruse on Eamon's part, but something he truly believes.

Fair enough. I stand corrected, That is apparently what he believes then, but I still contend that it's not how he acts towards Alistair. He also earlier mentions something about Alistair being all we have, as if it was a last resort and not sounding at all as confident.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 09 juin 2010 - 12:47 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Xandurpein wrote...
Fair enough. I stand corrected, That is apparently what he believes then, but I still contend that it's not how he acts towards Alistair.

I agree. He might sincerily believe it, but I think he's doing a poor job actually showing it and acting upon that belief.

Also, after Eamon's been revived, he gave the impression that putting Alsitair on the throne was something of a relunctant last resort.
"I would not propose such a thing if we had an alternative. But the unthinkable has occured"

So Eamon's faith in Alistair seems a bit meeh. It seems like he convinced himself  later that Alistair could have a chance and is not a last resort solution. Or it could be that he referred to him as a last resort because of his unrecognised bastard status.

Could be interpretted either way.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 09 juin 2010 - 12:55 .

[tmp7704]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

But he doesn't, when the last Therein is either exiled or executed. Why not?

I am curious, was something cut? Or is Eamon really supposed to stand by and just watch?

Well, he does start a fight if the voting is lost and Loghain calls for the execution. Whether that's more to save himself or Alistair or simply both is hard to tell.

In the latter sequence which can end with Alistair's execution there isn't any entries for Eamon but it's hard to say why. Maybe they simply didn't want to complicate it any further as it's already quite a monster of conversation, or just ran out of time to put the extra bits in?

[KoRnAh]

phaonica wrote...

Not only that but he was completely insubordinate towards me in front of the *Landsmeet*.

Well............ actually................. he couldn't be, he's your senior warden after Riordan so......

nevermind..

[Giggles_Manically]

He does put you in charge in Lothering though, so tough nuggies for him

[Addai]

Xandurpein wrote...

Maybe it's knitpicking, but the War of the Roses was really about a war between two branches of the same royal bloodline. Both the house of York and Lancaster where of the Plantagenet bloodline, so the comparison isn't exactly apt.

I said "War of the Roses type scenario."  I do think you're nitpicking, all due respect. 

Nor is it really true that Eamon's primary concern is avoiding civil war. Queen Anora and Eamon represent the two major political blocs in Ferelden, apart from Loghain. So if avoidnig civil war was his primary concern, he should be focused on how to broker an alliance with the Queen, rather than just push for Alistair as King.

Eamon is the one who pushes the PC to treat with Anora, and to arrange the marriage with her if it is feasible.  But until you hear from Anora, how is he supposed to know that she is not in cahoots with Loghain?

Of course, even after you hear from her, she still is in cahoots with Loghain, so his suspicion is well-founded.

He is is out to prepetuate the Therin blood line, not as a means so much as an end in itself, in my opinion. That doesn't make him a bad guy really. Depending on your personal feelings it might even make him sympathetic. In my opinion, he is just one of the vested interests the PC has to juggle in the game.

I don't disagree that it's an end in itself.  The issue is that the end is not completely arbitrary.  There are good reasons to keep a Theirin backside on the throne.

[Addai]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

He does put you in charge in Lothering though, so tough nuggies for him

He says that he's not going to argue with you about where to go first.  That means he's signing over his life to you?

Just try giving him an imperious order and see how well it goes over.  Like when sparing Zevran, for instance.

[Giggles_Manically]

I always max coersion so I dont worry about that. He made me mad in my Dalish PT though. I went after Zevran and he starts going on about "us", lost a good amount of points by shooting him down.

[Addai]

Hanz54321 wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

He does put you in charge in Lothering though, so tough nuggies for him

Nods - once a leader gives up command he can't demand it back later and expect to be taken seriously. 

It'd be like Dune when everybody wants to kill Feyd Rautha for Paul.  If Alistair tried to usurp my main Sten would want to kick his ass, Morrigan would want to kill him, Ogrhen would want to kick his ass . . . etc.  The most support Al would get is Wynne and Lelianna trying to get us to settle out difference amicably . . . and even they would not propose a leadership change.

At the Landsmeet, Alistair is the claimant to the throne, not the PC.

But obviously a lot of people envision Alistair as their puppet, just as Loghain accuses.  He's not supposed to even have an opinion, let alone assert it.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
At the Landsmeet, Alistair is the claimant to the throne, not the PC.

Not necessarily. You can make it perfectly clear to Alistair that he will not get the throne and he will be grateful for it.

[phaonica]

tmp7704 wrote...

Eamon: Without that to unite us, we could scatter back to warring teyrnirs.

basically, he considers it normal an inexperienced ruler would seek his guidance, but appears to consider Alistair to have all qualities to actually make a fine king, once he gets some experience. And the VO notes would indicate this is no ruse on Eamon's part, but something he truly believes.

Given Loghain's father's reaction to meeting Maric in the Stolen Throne (which I hadn't read at the time) one might expect for the Theirin bloodline to carry more weight at the Landsmeet, but for some reason, it doesn't.

[Giggles_Manically]

Addai67 wrote...

Hanz54321 wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

He does put you in charge in Lothering though, so tough nuggies for him

Nods - once a leader gives up command he can't demand it back later and expect to be taken seriously. 

It'd be like Dune when everybody wants to kill Feyd Rautha for Paul.  If Alistair tried to usurp my main Sten would want to kick his ass, Morrigan would want to kill him, Ogrhen would want to kick his ass . . . etc.  The most support Al would get is Wynne and Lelianna trying to get us to settle out difference amicably . . . and even they would not propose a leadership change.

At the Landsmeet, Alistair is the claimant to the throne, not the PC.

But obviously a lot of people envision Alistair as their puppet, just as Loghain accuses.  He's not supposed to even have an opinion, let alone assert it.

hehehe an Alistair puppet