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[Ramante]

The strange thing about the Landsmeet is that when you fight Loghain and his guards the fight will be stopped by the Chantry priest and they will speak about a duel.
When they are done explaining what they want you get the chance to respond and you can actually say:
- Alistair agrees/accepts. I will be his champion. (paraphrased)

I'm sorry but this line showed me that Alistair in fact is the puppet of the Warden. It would have been better if Alistair could say 'I accept' and then you get the option to select your champion. But the way it is done in game makes it quite clear that Alistair is a puppet, because they don't even let him respond.

[Addai]

Hanz54321 wrote...

Hey - you changed your Avatar!

Meet the queen of Ferelden.  One of them. 

You can flat out ask Alistair why he's putting you in charge.  He says he prefers to folow.  Morrigan questions him on it too and he says, "Are you asking if I like to follow?  Well, I do."

He says he's not going to argue with you about it.  As I wrote upthread, he is willing to be phlegmatic about most things until he sees a values boundary being crossed.  It is certainly reasonable to RP it that the PC takes this to mean he/she is commander over Alistair, though there are definitely points in the game before the Landsmeet where Alistair will disabuse you of the notion.

Here's a dialogue I recorded in which he admits that he's playing backseat driver in Redcliffe when he had been letting the PC make all the hard decisions.  So he's not unaware of this dynamic.

But your right - he's awful bossy for a guy who said he relinquishes leadership.  Almost as if it's in his blood to lead, but his upbringing and past experiences have rocked his confidence.

Obviously it's my opinion that those who think this just misunderstood him.

On another thread, Sarah posted a quote where Alistair specifically challenges the idea that the PC is his commanding officer.  I'll try to find it again, unless Sarah's ears burn and she ninja's me. 

Modifié par Addai67, 09 juin 2010 - 06:13 .

[phaonica]

Addai67 wrote...

Hanz54321 wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

He does put you in charge in Lothering though, so tough nuggies for him

Nods - once a leader gives up command he can't demand it back later and expect to be taken seriously. 

It'd be like Dune when everybody wants to kill Feyd Rautha for Paul.  If Alistair tried to usurp my main Sten would want to kick his ass, Morrigan would want to kill him, Ogrhen would want to kick his ass . . . etc.  The most support Al would get is Wynne and Lelianna trying to get us to settle out difference amicably . . . and even they would not propose a leadership change.

At the Landsmeet, Alistair is the claimant to the throne, not the PC.

But obviously a lot of people envision Alistair as their puppet, just as Loghain accuses.  He's not supposed to even have an opinion, let alone assert it.

It isn't as if one is putting Alistair on the throne for his benefit. You have to convince him to do it, despite that he doesn't want to.

[Addai]

phaonica wrote...

It isn't as if one is putting Alistair on the throne for his benefit. You have to convince him to do it, despite that he doesn't want to.

That's true only if Alistair is unhardened.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ramante wrote...

The strange thing about the Landsmeet is that when you fight Loghain and his guards the fight will be stopped by the Chantry priest and they will speak about a duel.
When they are done explaining what they want you get the chance to respond and you can actually say:
- Alistair agrees/accepts. I will be his champion. (paraphrased)

I'm sorry but this line showed me that Alistair in fact is the puppet of the Warden. It would have been better if Alistair could say 'I accept' and then you get the option to select your champion. But the way it is done in game makes it quite clear that Alistair is a puppet, because they don't even let him respond.

It can be interpretted in many ways and I reject the idea that Alistair being a puppet is not supported by the game. My dwarf used him as a puppet from the very beginning and it was clearly supported in the dialogue options.

Some migh see themselves as Alistair's friend and protector. Sort of like being to Alistair as Loghain was to Maric. Or be like Rowan was to Maric, in the case of romance.
Some might see themselves as Alistair's puppeters.
Others might seem themselves as Alistair's leaders.

It's all valid.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 09 juin 2010 - 06:19 .

[phaonica]

Addai67 wrote...

phaonica wrote...

It isn't as if one is putting Alistair on the throne for his benefit. You have to convince him to do it, despite that he doesn't want to.

That's true only if Alistair is unhardened.

I got the impression that he still doesn't want to do it, he's just sucking it up better.

[Addai]

Hanz54321 wrote...

Addai,

No need. I think Alistair does show leadership qualities. Obviously you missed my allusion to that in my post where I said "It's almost as if it's in his blood." The guy is a born leader, he just takes a back seat because it's where everyone has stuffed him his whole life. But if you play right the PC can bring the leader out in him.

Ok, sorry, I am obviously in fangirl mode and need to read more closely.  LOL

While I'm in fangirl mode, I'd like to point out how sexy Alistair is when he's pissed off. 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Hanz54321 wrote...

Addai,

No need. I think Alistair does show leadership qualities. Obviously you missed my allusion to that in my post where I said "It's almost as if it's in his blood." The guy is a born leader, he just takes a back seat because it's where everyone has stuffed him his whole life. But if you play right the PC can bring the leader out in him.

Or the PC might not, and Alistair remains unqualified to be a leader.

So once again, that brings us that it all depends on the PC and perspective.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 09 juin 2010 - 06:24 .

[Addai]

phaonica wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

phaonica wrote...

It isn't as if one is putting Alistair on the throne for his benefit. You have to convince him to do it, despite that he doesn't want to.

That's true only if Alistair is unhardened.

I got the impression that he still doesn't want to do it, he's just sucking it up better.

He does still make reluctant noises at times, but there are key points where he states in no uncertain terms that he wants to be king and that "Anora is not an option."  He tells you after the Landsmeet that it just took him a while to get used to the idea.  Hardly surprising given his history.  I doubt anyone who is plucked from obscurity and made leader of a nation wouldn't feel a bit of headspin.  As he points out in a rather hilarious banter with Shale, anyone who thinks it's easy to take the fate of thousands of people in your hands probably has never been in that position before.

Modifié par Addai67, 09 juin 2010 - 06:24 .

[Addai]

Ramante wrote...

The strange thing about the Landsmeet is that when you fight Loghain and his guards the fight will be stopped by the Chantry priest and they will speak about a duel.
When they are done explaining what they want you get the chance to respond and you can actually say:
- Alistair agrees/accepts. I will be his champion. (paraphrased)

I'm sorry but this line showed me that Alistair in fact is the puppet of the Warden. It would have been better if Alistair could say 'I accept' and then you get the option to select your champion. But the way it is done in game makes it quite clear that Alistair is a puppet, because they don't even let him respond.

And what does Alistair say in response?

I think it shows that the PC can think Alistair is his or her puppet, not that he is.

[pandymonium]

Addai67 wrote...

At the Landsmeet, Alistair is the claimant to the throne, not the PC.

True,  without Alistair the PC cannot challenge Loghain's regency.

Eamon:
I will spread word of Loghain's treachery, both here and against the king. But it will be but a claim made without proof. Those claims will give Loghain's allies pause, but we must combine it with a challenge Loghain cannot ignore. We need someone with a stronger claim to the throne than Loghain's daughter, the queen. Teagan and I have a claim through marriage, but we would seem opportunists, no better than Loghain.

Modifié par pandymonium, 09 juin 2010 - 06:31 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

pandymonium wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

At the Landsmeet, Alistair is the claimant to the throne, not the PC.

True,  without Alistair the PC cannot challenge Loghain's regency.

Eamon:
I will spread word of Loghain's treachery, both here and against the king. But it will be but a claim made without proof. Those claims will give Loghain's allies pause, but we must combine it with a challenge Loghain cannot ignore. We need someone with a stronger claim to the throne than Loghain's daughter, the queen. Teagan and I have a claim through marriage, but we would seem opportunists, no better than Loghain.

Except you can forge an alliance with Anora (and seek to become Consort if you are HNM) and inform Alistair of your decision before the landsmeet. So moot point.

And even then, Alistair can still be seen as a tool to be used to overthrow Loghain. Nothing more. That's what my Dwarf saw him as.

EDIT: and you can win the Landsmeet without once referring to Alistair's claim to the throne.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 09 juin 2010 - 06:36 .

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

It's all valid.

I agree that there is great flexibility in the RP perspective, and that is a strength of the game.  However, it's not infinite.  Some options are more or less supported under certain conditions. 

If Alistair is hardened and the Warden is friendly with him, then you'll continue to have great influence with him.  It is a stretch to call that puppeteering.

If Alistair is hardened, married to Anora and Loghain is spared, the influence the PC will have over him afterwards is close to zero.

If Alistair is unhardened and made sole king with the PC as chancellor, you leapfrog puppeteer and go straight to shadow ruler.

And so on.  All this to say, it's not all valid.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

It's all valid.

I agree that there is great flexibility in the RP perspective, and that is a strength of the game.  However, it's not infinite.  Some options are more or less supported under certain conditions. 

If Alistair is hardened and the Warden is friendly with him, then you'll continue to have great influence with him.  It is a stretch to call that puppeteering.

If Alistair is hardened, married to Anora and Loghain is spared, the influence the PC will have over him afterwards is close to zero.

If Alistair is unhardened and made sole king with the PC as chancellor, you leapfrog puppeteer and go straight to shadow ruler.

And so on.  All this to say, it's not all valid.

Of course, it's within a limited scope. Naturally, I think it would be hard to think that Alistair is your man servant that needs to clean your toilets. Nor do I think it's possible to think that Alistair is your PC's leader and you are here just to serve him.

But I do think that the PC is flexible enough to see himself / herself as Alistair's friend, protector, peer or leader, commander, or puppeter / shadow ruler.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

EDIT: and you can win the Landsmeet without once referring to Alistair's claim to the throne.

There would be no Landsmeet without Alistair's claim to the throne, however.

I don't dispute that the PC can believe Alistair is his puppet, can seek to use him as such, and even do so successfully.  Alistair may even allow this up to a certain point.  But when he turns around and points out that he is not, in fact, your puppet, people should not cry about having a kink thrown into their machinations- as though he has no right to do so.

Modifié par Addai67, 09 juin 2010 - 06:41 .

[Ramante]

Addai67 wrote...

Ramante wrote...

The strange thing about the Landsmeet is that when you fight Loghain and his guards the fight will be stopped by the Chantry priest and they will speak about a duel.
When they are done explaining what they want you get the chance to respond and you can actually say:
- Alistair agrees/accepts. I will be his champion. (paraphrased)

I'm sorry but this line showed me that Alistair in fact is the puppet of the Warden. It would have been better if Alistair could say 'I accept' and then you get the option to select your champion. But the way it is done in game makes it quite clear that Alistair is a puppet, because they don't even let him respond.

And what does Alistair say in response?

I think it shows that the PC can think Alistair is his or her puppet, not that he is.

I get your point and I agree that Alistair is not really the puppet of the Warden but you can play it like it is so. The thing I actually mean with the bold section is that the Landsmeet might interpret the whole situation as Alistair just being a puppet, who wants a king who can't speak/think for himself?

Alistair has no response to the 'Alistair agrees, I'm his champion' line.

[phaonica]

Addai67 wrote...

Here's a dialogue I recorded in which he admits that he's playing backseat driver in Redcliffe when he had been letting the PC make all the hard decisions.  So he's not unaware of this dynamic.

Well good, I'm glad he's aware.

But when he turns around and points out that he is not, in fact, your puppet, people should not cry about having a kink thrown into their machinations- as though he has no right to do so.

 For all that I may technically not be his commanding officer, I take offense that he would lay the responsibility of lives and kingdoms on me, and then claim I have no authority/right to make decisions about *his* life.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

EDIT: and you can win the Landsmeet without once referring to Alistair's claim to the throne.

There would be no Landsmeet without Alistair's claim to the throne, however.

I don't dispute that the PC can believe Alistair is his puppet, can seek to use him as such, and even do so successfully.  Alistair may even allow this up to a certain point.  But when he turns around and points out that he is not, in fact, your puppet, people should not cry about having a kink thrown into their machinations- as though he has no right to do so.

Of course, he has the right to disagree. I don't think anyone here is complaining that their companion had a different pov (unless you still believe my PC had him executed for that) and had a line he couldn't cross (some might lament the lack of options in this regard and it would be a valid concern).

Oh and in the epilogues, it's clear if you want to be his puppeter, that he is your puppet. You just need to agree with him once on the Loghain issue. That's the only time he tries to assert himself. The rest, he is pretty much your puppet. If unhardened and you are his chancellor.

[nos_astra]

Ramante wrote...

The strange thing about the Landsmeet is that when you fight Loghain and his guards the fight will be stopped by the Chantry priest and they will speak about a duel.
When they are done explaining what they want you get the chance to respond and you can actually say:
- Alistair agrees/accepts. I will be his champion. (paraphrased)

I'm sorry but this line showed me that Alistair in fact is the puppet of the Warden. It would have been better if Alistair could say 'I accept' and then you get the option to select your champion. But the way it is done in game makes it quite clear that Alistair is a puppet, because they don't even let him respond.

Alistair will respond with "You know, I could have said that". That's called breaking the fourth wall.

You can also continue to refuse the duel, then Alistair will step forward and agree to fight.

Modifié par klarabella, 09 juin 2010 - 06:52 .