965 réponses à ce sujet

[Ramante]

klarabella wrote...

Ramante wrote...

The strange thing about the Landsmeet is that when you fight Loghain and his guards the fight will be stopped by the Chantry priest and they will speak about a duel.
When they are done explaining what they want you get the chance to respond and you can actually say:
- Alistair agrees/accepts. I will be his champion. (paraphrased)

I'm sorry but this line showed me that Alistair in fact is the puppet of the Warden. It would have been better if Alistair could say 'I accept' and then you get the option to select your champion. But the way it is done in game makes it quite clear that Alistair is a puppet, because they don't even let him respond.

Alistair will respond with "You know, I could have said that.". That's called breaking the fourth wall.

You can also continue to refuse the duel, then Alistair will step forward and agree.

He responds? I should pay more attention next time, I thought he said nothing.
My mistake then.

[Addai]

phaonica wrote...
 For all that I may technically not be his commanding officer, I take offense that he would lay the responsibility of lives and kingdoms on me, and then claim I have no authority/right to make decisions about *his* life.

Here we get into a tricky area, however.  The fact that this is a game forces things.  In the real world, the PC could say "screw this" and run for Orlais to live in sin and eat cake until the Blight catches up with him or her.  That would be a porn video, however, and not a game. 

Even keeping that in mind, however, it is not the case that Alistair is without opinions throughout the game.  He will even say, if the Warden is hostile enough with him, that he's only staying with you because of the Blight (I think I'm repeating myself here).  The backbone is there to see all along, even if he doesn't often feel the need to display it.

Modifié par Addai67, 09 juin 2010 - 06:58 .

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Of course, he has the right to disagree. I don't think anyone here is complaining that their companion had a different pov (unless you still believe my PC had him executed for that) and had a line he couldn't cross (some might lament the lack of options in this regard and it would be a valid concern).

Actually I do often get the impression that people complain about NPCs having opinions, especially if they can't be talked out of them.

[nos_astra]

Addai67 wrote...

phaonica wrote...
 For all that I may technically not be his commanding officer, I take offense that he would lay the responsibility of lives and kingdoms on me, and then claim I have no authority/right to make decisions about *his* life.

Here we get into a tricky area, however.  The fact that this is a game forces things.  In the real world, the PC could say "screw this" and run for Orlais to live in sin and eat cake until the Blight catches up with you.  That would be a porn video, however, and not a game. 

...

The PC is preset in this area. You simply can't play a PC who is not willing and able to lead.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Of course, he has the right to disagree. I don't think anyone here is complaining that their companion had a different pov (unless you still believe my PC had him executed for that) and had a line he couldn't cross (some might lament the lack of options in this regard and it would be a valid concern).

Actually I do often get the impression that people complain about NPCs having opinions, especially if they can't be talked out of them.

I am talking about the people here in this specific thread. I don't think any of them dislike Alistair for having an opinion. Some see him openly challenging them in the landsmeet to be threatening. Others see his desertion / threat of desertion to be threatening (I am in that group). But it's not the difference of opinion, it's rather what he chooses to do with that opinion.

[KnightofPhoenix]

@ Hanz, yea I actually always lose when I use the Alistair argument. I don't know if it's necessary but it happened to me twice and I did help all the nobles from the Tavern.

[Giggles_Manically]

I love the scene where one by one the whole Landsmeet turns on Loghain, really dramatic and cool.

[phaonica]

Addai67 wrote...

phaonica wrote...
 For all that I may technically not be his commanding officer, I take offense that he would lay the responsibility of lives and kingdoms on me, and then claim I have no authority/right to make decisions about *his* life.

Here we get into a tricky area, however.  The fact that this is a game forces things.  In the real world, the PC could say "screw this" and run for Orlais to live in sin and eat cake until the Blight catches up with him or her.  That would be a porn video, however, and not a game. 

Even keeping that in mind, however, it is not the case that Alistair is without opinions throughout the game.  He will even say, if the Warden is hostile enough with him, that he's only staying with you because of the Blight (I think I'm repeating myself here).  The backbone is there to see all along, even if he doesn't often feel the need to display it.

Some of us don't have the luxury of not feeling the need to show our backbone.

He definitley does have opinions throughout the game--all the companions do--some of their advice I heeded, and some of it I didn't. I welcome their opinions because it gives me another point of view, whether I decide to take their advice or not. I *need* them to have an opinion. They don't have to like my decision, and that's fine too. Sometimes I'm not pleased with what had to be done, either. 

Alistair put the responsibilty of the decision-making on me; I'm the one who has to live with myself and the consequences of my actions; I'm the one who has to get my hands dirty. Did he have any right to dump that responsibility on me?

[nos_astra]

phaonica wrote...
Some of us don't have the luxury of not feeling the need to show our backbone.

What is this supposed to mean?

[KnightofPhoenix]

phaonica wrote...
Alistair put the responsibilty of the decision-making on me; I'm the one who has to live with myself and the consequences of my actions; I'm the one who has to get my hands dirty. Did he have any right to dump that responsibility on me?

I agree. He shouldn't ask someone to be a leader and then be surprised when that leader seeks to assert him / herself like all leaders need to.

Not saying this is the only way you can see it. But it's definately valid to see it that way and I share this with Phaonica. When Alistair not only asked for my PC to be leader, but admits that he is bad at it, in the middle of a war, then my PC saw him as a subordinate.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 09 juin 2010 - 07:47 .

[tmp7704]

phaonica wrote...

Alistair put the responsibilty of the decision-making on me; I'm the one who has to live with myself and the consequences of my actions; I'm the one who has to get my hands dirty. Did he have any right to dump that responsibility on me?

Something to keep on mind, while the game presents this situation as a "but Thou must", if this wasn't computer game you would have option to refuse to lead. So if you agree to take the lead, the responsibility for this act is shared by both Alistair and you. He can't be solely blamed for the leadership landing in your hands.

[the_one_54321]

One way he redeems himself of his lack of decision making skills is that he fully acknowledges this lack. He knows he's not fit to lead. (as opposed to Morrigan who gives her useless opinion in every situation)



He has something of a simple wisdom/cunning going on. Enough to not meddle where he'd only be a nuisance. This is part of what makes him likable. He's a dolt, but he knows he's not all that bright so he doesn't open his mouth about important things all that often.

[Swoo]

tmp7704 wrote...

That didn't work for Loghain who already was 'the hero of Ferelden' when he attempted his power grab. And a teyrn himself rather than just child of one. And father of currently reigning queen, to boot. And someone who also eliminates the problems dead. Compared to these credentials the PC is a mere wannabe, so it should be no surprise they don't even get such option.

Although you bring up an interesting thought in some strong connections between the PC's rise and Loghain's I hadn't thought of before, I have to respectfully disagree.The biggest sticking point in a comparison of Me vs Loghain is the matter of timing, means and perception.

I'm having to go on memory here, but I believe there are seven Landsmeet votes. I always win with every vote in my favor save the one automatic Mac Tir vote, so I already have more support in my corner than Loghain had at any time after Ostagar. I don't have the stigma of 'maybe leaving the King to die to advance my social status', nor have I engaged in much darker means of solidifying power like the bullying or outright deposing (I wonder if that's the right word for this example) of some of the highest noble houses in Howe's quest for titles and respect 'long owed' to him. Loghain was fighting by a thread to keep his power base at least even with his opposition, my Warden had basically solidified everyone into my camp BUT Loghain.

Child of a Teryn vs an actual Teryn comes down to the Royalist mentality many seem to carry in the nobility of the Landsmeet. I'm of a deep and long royal bloodline that actually could have threatened - and maybe won - the crown in some nobles lifetime. Loghain mentions himself that titles and power only go so far, and his blood is still seen for it containing generations of farmers and furniture-makers. With Howe's death and Fergus' status up in the air, I would say at the very least it would be a wash, leaning more my way with the nobles importance on maintaining the old ways (to keep themselves fat and protected.)

Timing would be my last one. If history has proven anything, a long enough timeframe and bad enough decisions can erode anyones reputation. Fighting Loghain's support as the Hero of River Dane when it was still fresh would have been foolish. It had gone on it's way into myth and legend which would have been like trying to fight George Washington for Presidency just a smattering of months before the Landsmeet would have went down. By the time my Cousland was moving for power though, he'd left a King to die, fractured every faction of Ferelden, assassinated (or attempted to) anyone he even thought wouldn't toe the line, engaged in vicious torture and blackmail against the highest potential supporters, and allied with the 'evil empire' in a pact of slaves for gold. Whatever power his reputation had, it had taken serious blows by the time the vote rolled around. Mine on the other hand was current, fresh, and still building. I'd fought with the King to the bitter end, I'd made a friend of Dwarves, Elves, Mages, Templars, and Nobility. Even the alienage Elves loved my arse. I've done what I said and my momentum was building up to a fevered point. I've shown I can fight, lead, and negotiate and like Hansel, I was very hot right now.

Now, I make a lot of points vs Loghain that can easily (and rightly) be shoved onto Howe and his horrible decisions and actions, but in this matter they have to be seen as one and the same. A politician gets hit on a slavery scandal, the fact that it was all his secretary's doing and he turned a blind eye towards it because he needed the money won't save him. I see it playing out the same here.

[phaonica]

tmp7704 wrote...

phaonica wrote...

Alistair put the responsibilty of the decision-making on me; I'm the one who has to live with myself and the consequences of my actions; I'm the one who has to get my hands dirty. Did he have any right to dump that responsibility on me?

Something to keep on mind, while the game presents this situation as a "but Thou must", if this wasn't computer game you would have option to refuse to lead. So if you agree to take the lead, the responsibility for this act is shared by both Alistair and you. He can't be solely blamed for the leadership landing in your hands.

I realize that it's a game and PC is by mechanic making the decisions. I find this to be a metagame excuse. As a player I don't solely blame him, because it is a game and that's the way he was written. Shall I then excuse Loghain for the same reason? He was written to be the villain, it's not his fault.

Within the context of the game, my character did not feel as if Alistair was asking for a co-leader. He was refusing to lead. (And I say refusing because you cannot talk him out of it).

[the_one_54321]

I remember Alistair flat out saying that he'd be no good as a leader and that you should do it instead. That he had confidence in you. I agree with him. He demonstrated a couple times how he would be bad at decision making. But it's to his credit that he knows and admits this.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

the_one_54321 wrote...

I remember Alistair flat out saying that he'd be no good as a leader and that you should do it instead. That he had confidence in you. I agree with him. He demonstrated a couple times how he would be bad at decision making. But it's to his credit that he knows and admits this.

Exactly. There are few things worse than a person who is incompetant at being a leader, but won't admit and goes for it anyway.

[the_one_54321]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

There are few things worse than a person who is incompetant at being a leader, but won't admit and goes for it anyway.

Like Morrigan?

She's so good at being bad. She makes me want to help her because she's so very misguided but so certain that she knows best.

[Sarah1281]

Addai67 wrote...



Obviously it's my opinion that those who think this just misunderstood him.



On another thread, Sarah posted a quote where Alistair specifically challenges the idea that the PC is his commanding officer. I'll try to find it again, unless Sarah's ears burn and she ninja's me.

Chances are the thread's moved on but I had class so here it is. If Alistair tells you he doesn't feel comfortable teaching you to be a Templar since he barely knows you/dislikes you you can ask 'What if I ordered you to do it?'



He responds with 'Order away. Suddenly you're my commanding officer?'



Regardless of whether or not you actually are, he does not believe this.

[the_one_54321]

Sarah1218 wrote...

Regardless of whether or not you actually are, he does not believe this.

That's only if you haven't yet got his approval up. Once he approves of you, he'll do whatever you say from that point onward, with only two instances of objection (and he'll still not try to stop you, just get angry).

[phaonica]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Obviously it's my opinion that those who think this just misunderstood him.

On another thread, Sarah posted a quote where Alistair specifically challenges the idea that the PC is his commanding officer. I'll try to find it again, unless Sarah's ears burn and she ninja's me.

Chances are the thread's moved on but I had class so here it is. If Alistair tells you he doesn't feel comfortable teaching you to be a Templar since he barely knows you/dislikes you you can ask 'What if I ordered you to do it?'

He responds with 'Order away. Suddenly you're my commanding officer?'

Regardless of whether or not you actually are, he does not believe this.

I may not be his commanding officer, but basically he's saying , "oh, what, now *you're* in charge"? Depending on how far I'd gotten into the game, the more likely I'd be to deck him for giving me this line. I don't find that I have the right to order him around, nor do I think he doesn't have the right to challenge my decisions. But when push comes to shove, he forfeited the position of power and influence early on, whether he realizes it or not.

[tmp7704]

Swoo wrote...

I'm having to go on memory here, but I believe there are seven Landsmeet votes. I always win with every vote in my favor save the one automatic Mac Tir vote, so I already have more support in my corner than Loghain had at any time after Ostagar.

It's a side-effect of the simplification of the voting system i'm afraid, as technically it sways the mind of the whole Landsmeet in uniform manner based on votes of few nobles who can be influenced directly by PCs actions. This is very far from how the Landsmeet is presented by the game lore with dozens if not hundreds of individual arls and banns... people who in the game you don't even get to see save for a cutscene. To put it differently, Loghain has to deal with lore Landsmeet while the player deals with game Landsmeet, making it very much apples and oranges.

I don't have the stigma of 'maybe leaving the King to die to advance my social status', nor have I engaged in much darker means of solidifying power like the bullying or outright deposing (I wonder if that's the right word for this example) of some of the highest noble houses in Howe's quest for titles and respect 'long owed' to him.

You do actually have the stigma -- and it's put on you but none other than Loghain himself. He claims it was the Wardens (and consequently, you) who had tricked Cailan into hopeless Ostagar charge and that it was done to allow the nearby Orlais to swoop in and conquer defenseless country, again.

This affects your argument of timing, by the way. While you may perceive yourself as a rising heroic star destined to save Ferelden, this can be viewed very different by your average attendant of the Landsmeet. Who, after all, only gets to see a relatively uknown youngster attempting to personally grab the throne of Ferelden even though the Landsmeet was called for entirely different candidate. A youngster who tries to smear reputation of established hero to achieve his goal, while his own reputation and motives were put in doubt. I.e. they see someone with the same flaws which are supposed to erode people's opinions on Loghain but without an established reputation to erode to begin with.

[Addai]

the_one_54321 wrote...
That's only if you haven't yet got his approval up. Once he approves of you, he'll do whatever you say from that point onward, with only two instances of objection (and he'll still not try to stop you, just get angry).

You're contradicting yourself here.  Obviously, Alistair will object to certain things regardless of his approval level.