965 réponses à ce sujet

[the_one_54321]

He objects, but does nothing to stop you. It's not a contradiction. The point is that even when he objects, he still does what you tell him to do.

[Addai]

the_one_54321 wrote...

He objects, but does nothing to stop you. It's not a contradiction. The point is that even when he objects, he still does what you tell him to do.

By "try to stop you," I assume you mean physically.  In which case, the game would be broken because one of two candidates for the throne is dead.  Not an especially helpful point to draw finely.

Modifié par Addai67, 09 juin 2010 - 10:06 .

[the_one_54321]

Well yeah, but that's a metagaming excuse. Whatever the reason is, he will not actually try to usurp your leadership and does as he is told.

[Addai]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Well yeah, but that's a metagaming excuse. Whatever the reason is, he will not actually try to usurp your leadership and does as he is told.

As will all of Ferelden, eventually.  So what?  The PC is god, it is how things are designed.  The point is that Alistair doesn't see you as his commander.  If you defile the ashes, he'll say "I knew I shouldn't have let you do this."  Obviously he believes he actually has a right to "let" you do something or not.

[the_one_54321]

Well he's not like Dog in terms of unfailing loyalty, and you can certainly make him hate you and disagree with most of your decisions. But he still follows you in whatever you do.

[phaonica]

Addai67 wrote...

The point is that Alistair doesn't see you as his commander.  If you defile the ashes, he'll say "I knew I shouldn't have let you do this."  Obviously he believes he actually has a right to "let" you do something or not.

Well he's wrong. He may not see me as a commander, but if he thinks I'm not in charge, he's wrong. He doesn't "let" me do anything, he has no power to stop me. He has no power to stop me because he refused to take the position of influence.

I'm not saying "my character could stomp his and therefore I'm in charge". Or "really, what's he going to do, the game won't let him leave". I am not attempting to use game mechanics to exert my authority over him.  I am going by what his character says, and what his character does. It is not the abuse of a game mechanic to claim that he does forfeit the position of authority.

[Addai]

phaonica wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

The point is that Alistair doesn't see you as his commander.  If you defile the ashes, he'll say "I knew I shouldn't have let you do this."  Obviously he believes he actually has a right to "let" you do something or not.

Well he's wrong. He may not see me as a commander, but if he thinks I'm not in charge, he's wrong. He doesn't "let" me do anything, he has no power to stop me. He has no power to stop me because he refused to take the position of influence.
 

And when it comes time for the Landsmeet, he can tell you to f*ck off and you can chop his head off if you so choose.  One big happy Warden family.

[Giggles_Manically]

Alistair at the Landsmeet is not childish, he just hit his breaking point which many others have:

Wynne: Siding with Templars, defiling ashes

Leliana: Defiling Ashes

Morrigan: Turning her over to templars (restored in Morrigan thread)

Shale: Keeping the Anvil of the Void, with her present

Alistair: Sparing Loghain

Oghern, Zevran, Sten, and Dog do not have one Im pretty sure



I do not see it as childish just a line he wont cross, like others do,

Still a nob, but a bearable knob.

[Herr Uhl]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Alistair at the Landsmeet is not childish, he just hit his breaking point which many others have:
Wynne: Siding with Templars, defiling ashes
Leliana: Defiling Ashes
Morrigan: Turning her over to templars (restored in Morrigan thread)
Shale: Keeping the Anvil of the Void, with her present
Alistair: Sparing Loghain
Oghern, Zevran, Sten, and Dog do not have one Im pretty sure

I do not see it as childish just a line he wont cross, like others do,
Still a nob, but a bearable knob.

The main argument is that his reasons for doing so are childish, not that he hits a breaking point.

[Giggles_Manically]

Whatever I dont like him at all, since Shale is always my tank. While his reasons may be childish I can appreciate he actually does have a line he wont cross, which makes him actually more bearable. However his whole hissy fit and selfishness at that point really annoys me.

[Sarah1281]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Whatever I dont like him at all, since Shale is always my tank. While his reasons may be childish I can appreciate he actually does have a line he wont cross, which makes him actually more bearable. However his whole hissy fit and selfishness at that point really annoys me.

The problem is that is line seems to be 'not murdering someone who surrenedered in front of his own daughter.'

[Giggles_Manically]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Whatever I dont like him at all, since Shale is always my tank. While his reasons may be childish I can appreciate he actually does have a line he wont cross, which makes him actually more bearable. However his whole hissy fit and selfishness at that point really annoys me.

The problem is that is line seems to be 'not murdering someone who surrenedered in front of his own daughter.'

Could you clarify that one please Sarah? is that is line?

[Sarah1281]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Whatever I dont like him at all, since Shale is always my tank. While his reasons may be childish I can appreciate he actually does have a line he wont cross, which makes him actually more bearable. However his whole hissy fit and selfishness at that point really annoys me.

The problem is that is line seems to be 'not murdering someone who surrenedered in front of his own daughter.'

Could you clarify that one please Sarah? is that is line?

No, that's not the line. It is accurate, however, as Loghain surrenders and if Alistair is not dueling him personally then you can either accept his surrender or not but either way Riordan comes running up with his offer to make Loghain a Warden and so does Anora so she's standing sort of between Loghain and his would-be killers although a little off to the side, so close that - comical or not - the blood splatters all over her. Alistair freaks out and leaves (at least your party if not Ferelden) if you do not kill Loghain who at that point has surrendered and whose daughter is beggint you not to kill him.

[Giggles_Manically]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Whatever I dont like him at all, since Shale is always my tank. While his reasons may be childish I can appreciate he actually does have a line he wont cross, which makes him actually more bearable. However his whole hissy fit and selfishness at that point really annoys me.

The problem is that is line seems to be 'not murdering someone who surrenedered in front of his own daughter.'

Could you clarify that one please Sarah? is that is line?

No, that's not the line. It is accurate, however, as Loghain surrenders and if Alistair is not dueling him personally then you can either accept his surrender or not but either way Riordan comes running up with his offer to make Loghain a Warden and so does Anora so she's standing sort of between Loghain and his would-be killers although a little off to the side, so close that - comical or not - the blood splatters all over her. Alistair freaks out and leaves (at least your party if not Ferelden) if you do not kill Loghain who at that point has surrendered and whose daughter is beggint you not to kill him.

Thats what was so hard my very first time through since I was playing how I would in that situation I couldnt bring myself to murder someone in cold blood in front of his daughter,  and what Riordian made sense. I did not even guess about the US so when Riordian said there are compelling reasons I though he knows what he is doing I guess. Good thing I hardened him but it was a hard descion there.

[Addai]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Whatever I dont like him at all, since Shale is always my tank. While his reasons may be childish I can appreciate he actually does have a line he wont cross, which makes him actually more bearable. However his whole hissy fit and selfishness at that point really annoys me.

The problem is that is line seems to be 'not murdering someone who surrenedered in front of his own daughter.'

Perhaps you might ask yourself what the alienage elves think of Alistair's line.  And the former alienage elves, wherever they might be in Tevinter.

[Sarah1281]

Addai67 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Whatever I dont like him at all, since Shale is always my tank. While his reasons may be childish I can appreciate he actually does have a line he wont cross, which makes him actually more bearable. However his whole hissy fit and selfishness at that point really annoys me.

The problem is that is line seems to be 'not murdering someone who surrenedered in front of his own daughter.'

Perhaps you might ask yourself what the alienage elves think of Alistair's line.  And the former alienage elves, wherever they might be in Tevinter.

It's not like Alistair wants him dead for the elves or anything: he's just thinking about Duncan. And since I don't play CE very often that's not usually my perspective.

[Giggles_Manically]

Addai67 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Whatever I dont like him at all, since Shale is always my tank. While his reasons may be childish I can appreciate he actually does have a line he wont cross, which makes him actually more bearable. However his whole hissy fit and selfishness at that point really annoys me.

The problem is that is line seems to be 'not murdering someone who surrenedered in front of his own daughter.'

Perhaps you might ask yourself what the alienage elves think of Alistair's line.  And the former alienage elves, wherever they might be in Tevinter.

Perhaps you should come to the relization that this is a medieval setting not a modern setting and that kings and queens we view as strong did things that would make a modern War Criminal look like Mother Theresa. What Loghain did was terrible and unforgivable, but everyone deserves the chance to try and set things right if they do something wrong. 

Also Alistair is not the most merciful human being ever you realize he advocates killing a lot of people in the game, so in short I do not care. You justify murder because your boyfriend demands it, while calling me out for being merciful.

[Addai]

Sarah1281 wrote...
 It's not like Alistair wants him dead for the elves or anything: he's just thinking about Duncan. And since I don't play CE very often that's not usually my perspective.

Now you're putting thoughts in his head?  He sees sparing Loghain as a terrible injustice.  It is one of Alistair's primary motivations to do justice by the weak and show compassion, as Eamon points out if you question his fitness to be king.  You don't have to be an elf to be affected by what you see in the alienage.

[Addai]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Perhaps you should come to the relization that this is a medieval setting not a modern setting and that kings and queens we view as strong did things that would make a modern War Criminal look like Mother Theresa. What Loghain did was terrible and unforgivable, but everyone deserves the chance to try and set things right if they do something wrong. 

Also Alistair is not the most merciful human being ever you realize he advocates killing a lot of people in the game, so in short I do not care. You justify murder because your boyfriend demands it, while calling me out for being merciful.

Ignoring that you continue to make snide and condescending jabs- I'll only do that so long before I ignore your posts completely- where is it that Alistair demands you sacrifice the weak?

It is the medieval setting that makes Loghain's execution not only appropriate, but de rigeur.  He committed a whole raft of executable offenses.

[Giggles_Manically]

Addai67 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
 It's not like Alistair wants him dead for the elves or anything: he's just thinking about Duncan. And since I don't play CE very often that's not usually my perspective.

Now you're putting thoughts in his head?  He sees sparing Loghain as a terrible injustice.  It is one of Alistair's primary motivations to do justice by the weak and show compassion, as Eamon points out if you question his fitness to be king.  You don't have to be an elf to be affected by what you see in the alienage.

He only says this man betrayed and killed our brothers, he had you imprisoned and tortured.

He never mentions Apostates, or elves being enslaved. He is motivated by revenge plain and simple.

[ejoslin]

If you spare Loghain, Alistair doesn't mention the elves, though, so it's a fairly safe assumption that that is not an issue going through his head. He brings up the personal injustices.



Whatever is going through his head, though, what is MOST important is ending the blight. The senior gray warden on the scene is telling you to spare Loghain and use him. Why you're not putting more people through the joining is a plot device for sure, but since that's not an option, you should probably realize that the senior warden is pushing for Loghain to be a warden for a very good reason, though you don't know what it is at that point.



And yes, ending the blight is more important than Loghain's crimes. Listening to Riorden actually does make sense. Alistair's main objection seems to be that he doesn't want someone like Loghain in the Grey Wardens, that it would give Loghain too much honor. Riorden's reason seems to be, hey, we NEED wardens, there's a blight happening now, and we need to end it by whatever means are available, and recruiting Loghain will substantially raise the odds of us doing so.

[Sarah1281]

Addai67 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
 It's not like Alistair wants him dead for the elves or anything: he's just thinking about Duncan. And since I don't play CE very often that's not usually my perspective.

Now you're putting thoughts in his head?  He sees sparing Loghain as a terrible injustice.  It is one of Alistair's primary motivations to do justice by the weak and show compassion, as Eamon points out if you question his fitness to be king.  You don't have to be an elf to be affected by what you see in the alienage.

I'm not putting thoughts in his head. What he says is "Absolutely not! Riordan, this man abandoned our brothers and then blamed us for the deed! He hunted us down like animals. He tortured you! How can we simply forget that? Joining he Wardens is an honor, not a punishment! Name him a Warden and you cheapen us all! I will not stand next to him as a brother. I won't!" I'm not saying that he doesn't care about the elves - although no one else actually seems to - and by 'Duncan' I meant 'the Grey Wardens at large' but he only talks about the Wardens and what Loghain has done to them so whether Alistair viewed what happened in the Alienage as being enough to condemn Loghain to death even if none of the other things happened is a matter of opinion and I feel that, since he actually spoke of the crimes against the Wardens, that that is what concerned him more.

[Addai]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

He only says this man betrayed and killed our brothers, he had you imprisoned and tortured.

He never mentions Apostates, or elves being enslaved. He is motivated by revenge plain and simple.

Because of the height of irony, as he sees it, that Riordan is proposing to make Loghain a Grey Warden.  He does want Loghain executed from the first, because first on that list of long offenses is treason.  However, it is a matter of justice and not only personal revenge.  Even our modern justice system recognizes the suffering of victims in determining punishment.  Yet always in these discussions people are more concerned about how badly Anora must feel.  It makes my hair stand on end.

[Giggles_Manically]

Addai67 wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Perhaps you should come to the relization that this is a medieval setting not a modern setting and that kings and queens we view as strong did things that would make a modern War Criminal look like Mother Theresa. What Loghain did was terrible and unforgivable, but everyone deserves the chance to try and set things right if they do something wrong. 

Also Alistair is not the most merciful human being ever you realize he advocates killing a lot of people in the game, so in short I do not care. You justify murder because your boyfriend demands it, while calling me out for being merciful.

Ignoring that you continue to make snide and condescending jabs- I'll only do that so long before I ignore your posts completely- where is it that Alistair demands you sacrifice the weak?

It is the medieval setting that makes Loghain's execution not only appropriate, but de rigeur.  He committed a whole raft of executable offenses.

I never said alistair wants to sacrifice the weak, but he does spaz if you spare or accept people he dosent want:
Jowan
Blood Mage in Tower "Shoving a sword of mercy right through her heart"
Shale ( If you fail persuading him)
Zevran

I am not being condescending, the devs have said that Ferelden is 1200 CE England meaning that what people view as being moral and immoral is far removed from what we in 2010 CE view as correct.  Loghain commited acts that are bad yes, but people he did it while doing what he thought was right.

For an perfect example people who see 300 view Leonadis as some great hero but he:
Murdered persians who surrendered
Used slaves who escaped to their side as fodder
Abused his own slaves (Helots)
Forced his own slaves to fight to the death

He did all this claiming to be defending Greece, yet we view him as a hero. You can not judge medieval ethics from a modern view, since people from either time have a fundemental difference in how they view the world.

[Sarah1281]

Addai67 wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

He only says this man betrayed and killed our brothers, he had you imprisoned and tortured.

He never mentions Apostates, or elves being enslaved. He is motivated by revenge plain and simple.

Because of the height of irony, as he sees it, that Riordan is proposing to make Loghain a Grey Warden.  He does want Loghain executed from the first, because first on that list of long offenses is treason.  However, it is a matter of justice and not only personal revenge.  Even our modern justice system recognizes the suffering of victims in determining punishment.  Yet always in these discussions people are more concerned about how badly Anora must feel.  It makes my hair stand on end.

Well, for me the conern about Anora is putting myself in her place and how I would take it if my father (IRL or my Warden's father) were killed in front of me and I was splattered with his blood.