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[Giggles_Manically]

Addai67 wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

He only says this man betrayed and killed our brothers, he had you imprisoned and tortured.

He never mentions Apostates, or elves being enslaved. He is motivated by revenge plain and simple.

Because of the height of irony, as he sees it, that Riordan is proposing to make Loghain a Grey Warden.  He does want Loghain executed from the first, because first on that list of long offenses is treason.  However, it is a matter of justice and not only personal revenge.  Even our modern justice system recognizes the suffering of victims in determining punishment.  Yet always in these discussions people are more concerned about how badly Anora must feel.  It makes my hair stand on end.

She still loves her father, and you kind of decapitate him in front of her. I do not see a trial by combat as any medium of justice or a trial.

[Giggles_Manically]

NEVERMIND THE DOUBLE POST

Modifié par Giggles_Manically, 10 juin 2010 - 09:09 .

[Addai]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

She still loves her father, and you kind of decapitate him in front of her. I do not see a trial by combat as any medium of justice or a trial.

So you appeal to medieval standards of justice only to exonerate Loghain.

And once again, I'm sure the elves loved the men, women and children taken away.  Regardless of whether or not Alistair mentions it or even is thinking of it, my statement was to ask the elves what they think of Alistair's demand for justice against Loghain.  According him military honor just doesn't cut it.

Modifié par Addai67, 10 juin 2010 - 09:10 .

[Addai]

Sarah1281 wrote...
Well, for me the conern about Anora is putting myself in her place and how I would take it if my father (IRL or my Warden's father) were killed in front of me and I was splattered with his blood.

I'm asking you to put yourself in the place of Loghain's victims.  Take your pick, if the elves sold into slavery don't move you.  Maybe the children of Redcliffe ultimately affected by his poisoning of Eamon?

Modifié par Addai67, 10 juin 2010 - 09:14 .

[Giggles_Manically]

Addai67 wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

She still loves her father, and you kind of decapitate him in front of her. I do not see a trial by combat as any medium of justice or a trial.

So you appeal to medieval standards of justice only to exonerate Loghain.

And once again, I'm sure the elves loved the men, women and children taken away.  Regardless of whether or not Alistair mentions it or even is thinking of it, my statement was to ask the elves what they think of Alistair's demand for justice against Loghain.  According him military honor just doesn't cut it.

I really dont care what Alistair wants or what is popular, at that point Riordian made a point and I though "if the Warden with 10 times the experience of being one says to make him one I am going to listen." If Alistair would have fought I would be fine with it but no. He leaves and cant even defend his home.

The whole ending annoyed me in DA, Morrigan, Alistair, the Nobles, and yes Loghain. There is a genocidal horde of monsters coming, and everyone wants to argue about who gets to wear the funny hat?

[Sarah1281]

Addai67 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
Well, for me the conern about Anora is putting myself in her place and how I would take it if my father (IRL or my Warden's father) were killed in front of me and I was splattered with his blood.

I'm asking you to put yourself in the place of Loghain's victims.  Take your pick, if the elves sold into slavery don't move you.  Maybe the children of Redcliffe ultimately affected by his poisoning of Eamon?

Well, you asked the reasoning for the Anora concern. If you are going to kill him then I just don't feel it is right to do so with Anora standing there although I understand it's her choice to do so.

[Giggles_Manically]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
Well, for me the conern about Anora is putting myself in her place and how I would take it if my father (IRL or my Warden's father) were killed in front of me and I was splattered with his blood.

I'm asking you to put yourself in the place of Loghain's victims.  Take your pick, if the elves sold into slavery don't move you.  Maybe the children of Redcliffe ultimately affected by his poisoning of Eamon?

Well, you asked the reasoning for the Anora concern. If you are going to kill him then I just don't feel it is right to do so with Anora standing there although I understand it's her choice to do so.

I am just going to leave this thread we all have views that are different which is good. We can no more move Addai out of her loathing of Loghain, then I can get my sister to stop listening to Justin Bieber in the car.

[TheSixthghoul]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
Well, for me the conern about Anora is putting myself in her place and how I would take it if my father (IRL or my Warden's father) were killed in front of me and I was splattered with his blood.

I'm asking you to put yourself in the place of Loghain's victims.  Take your pick, if the elves sold into slavery don't move you.  Maybe the children of Redcliffe ultimately affected by his poisoning of Eamon?

Well, you asked the reasoning for the Anora concern. If you are going to kill him then I just don't feel it is right to do so with Anora standing there although I understand it's her choice to do so.

I am just going to leave this thread we all have views that are different which is good. We can no more move Addai out of her loathing of Loghain, then I can get my sister to stop listening to Justin Bieber in the car.

Ha! you can all the facts and dev notes in the world and she still won't believe it.

[Giggles_Manically]

Sixth Goul wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
Well, for me the conern about Anora is putting myself in her place and how I would take it if my father (IRL or my Warden's father) were killed in front of me and I was splattered with his blood.

I'm asking you to put yourself in the place of Loghain's victims.  Take your pick, if the elves sold into slavery don't move you.  Maybe the children of Redcliffe ultimately affected by his poisoning of Eamon?

Well, you asked the reasoning for the Anora concern. If you are going to kill him then I just don't feel it is right to do so with Anora standing there although I understand it's her choice to do so.

I am just going to leave this thread we all have views that are different which is good. We can no more move Addai out of her loathing of Loghain, then I can get my sister to stop listening to Justin Bieber in the car.

Ha! you can all the facts and dev notes in the world and she still won't believe it.

The fault is that so many things the devs claim is not told or shown in game which is really annoying. It was but since we got such an early release courtesy of EA so much was left undone.

[phaonica]

Addai67 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
Well, for me the conern about Anora is putting myself in her place and how I would take it if my father (IRL or my Warden's father) were killed in front of me and I was splattered with his blood.

I'm asking you to put yourself in the place of Loghain's victims.  Take your pick, if the elves sold into slavery don't move you.  Maybe the children of Redcliffe ultimately affected by his poisoning of Eamon?

What about the Warden's victims? The Warden has plenty of places where s/he can make decisions that can potentially lead to having victims.

What if you leave Redcliffe and seek help from the Circle tower to save Connor and Isolde? How many more people in Redcliffe are going to die because you wouldn't make a hard decision?

What if you preserve the Anvil of the Void? How likely is it that dwarves are going to be put into slavery for the good of Orzammar, or for the good of the Warden's quest against the Blight?
What if you side with Branka? What about justice for the house she murdered?

What if you destroy the Anvil? How many dwarves could have been saved if they'd had access to golems again?

What if you side with Bhelen? How many people is he going to execute to get his way?

[Sarah1281]

I don't think this is really about facts so much as 'looking at the facts about what Loghain has done, does he deserve execution or the chance for redemption and how important is it to have another Warden, especially if Alistair makes it clear that you won't be able to have four as he's totally quitting if you let Loghain in.' Of course, I not happy with the thought of new-King Alistair getting himself killed before his coronation so making Loghain a Warden is an excellent way to ensure that he won't leave Anora on the throne alone.

[Giggles_Manically]

phaonica wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
Well, for me the conern about Anora is putting myself in her place and how I would take it if my father (IRL or my Warden's father) were killed in front of me and I was splattered with his blood.

I'm asking you to put yourself in the place of Loghain's victims.  Take your pick, if the elves sold into slavery don't move you.  Maybe the children of Redcliffe ultimately affected by his poisoning of Eamon?

What about the Warden's victims? The Warden has plenty of places where s/he can make decisions that can potentially lead to having victims.

What if you leave Redcliffe and seek help from the Circle tower to save Connor and Isolde? How many more people in Redcliffe are going to die because you wouldn't make a hard decision?

What if you preserve the Anvil of the Void? How likely is it that dwarves are going to be put into slavery for the good of Orzammar, or for the good of the Warden's quest against the Blight?
What if you side with Branka? What about justice for the house she murdered?

What if you destroy the Anvil? How many dwarves could have been saved if they'd had access to golems again?

What if you side with Bhelen? How many people is he going to execute to get his way?

The best thing to say is that no one is innocent or clean of crimes in this game. Everyone did something bad, except for Alistair, who farts rainbows and cures lepers by smiling at them if you ask his fans.

[tmp7704]

phaonica wrote...

What about the Warden's victims? The Warden has plenty of places where s/he can make decisions that can potentially lead to having victims.

There's some difference between making decisions which potentially have victims and ones which create the victims outright. But even if there wasn't, this at best makes the Warden another person who should perhaps be judged for their deeds (especially by these potential victims) and doesn't clear Loghain's record in the slightest. Just like the fact someone else stole something doesn't clear another thief from their own crime.

[Sarah1281]

tmp7704 wrote...

phaonica wrote...

What about the Warden's victims? The Warden has plenty of places where s/he can make decisions that can potentially lead to having victims.

There's some difference between making decisions which potentially have victims and ones which create the victims outright. But even if there wasn't, this at best makes the Warden another person who should perhaps be judged for their deeds (especially by these potential victims) and doesn't clear Loghain's record in the slightest. Just like the fact someone else stole something doesn't clear another thief from their own crime.

It might bring into question your moral right to judge them for this, though.

[tmp7704]

Sarah1281 wrote...

It might bring into question your moral right to judge them for this, though.

If you subscribe to the "those without sin cast the first stone" school of thought, yes. However since as pointed  out no one is innocent, i have to accept that guilty can judge the guilty, as the straight alternative is anything goes without consequences.

[Addai]

Giggles_Manically wrote...
I never said alistair wants to sacrifice the weak, but he does spaz if you spare or accept people he dosent want:
Jowan
Blood Mage in Tower "Shoving a sword of mercy right through her heart"

He doesn't say a peep if you spare the maleficar in the Tower.  In fact, he'll argue with Leliana that sending her to the Chantry for "mercy" is likely to end up unhealthy for her.  As for Jowan, he just doesn't want you to let him go without any attempt to show him justice at all.  He will not give you a negative at all if you let Jowan go and tell him to accompany you (which Jowan refuses).

Shale ( If you fail persuading him)
Zevran

He doesn't want to take these as companions, but he doesn't advocate killing them!  If you say, about Zevran, "if you want to kill him, Alistair, go ahead," he backs down.  He is concerned about taking murderers into your camp.  I'm supposed to see this as a fault?  LOL

I am not being condescending, the devs have said that Ferelden is 1200 CE England meaning that what people view as being moral and immoral is far removed from what we in 2010 CE view as correct.  Loghain commited acts that are bad yes, but people he did it while doing what he thought was right.

I'm referring to such comments as "your boyfriend" or whatever it is you said up above.  If you can't make your case without such nonsense, don't bother making it at all.

[Addai]

ejoslin wrote...

And yes, ending the blight is more important than Loghain's crimes. Listening to Riorden actually does make sense. Alistair's main objection seems to be that he doesn't want someone like Loghain in the Grey Wardens, that it would give Loghain too much honor. Riorden's reason seems to be, hey, we NEED wardens, there's a blight happening now, and we need to end it by whatever means are available, and recruiting Loghain will substantially raise the odds of us doing so.

Alistair has more substantive points than simply the injustice of sparing Loghain.  You need Wardens, but there is nothing that says you need this man as a Warden, and plenty which speaks against the wisdom of such a decision.  I realize that metagame-wise, we know that Loghain does make a good Grey Warden.  But to me it is game-breaking illogic to expect the man that spent the entire game railing about the "Orlesians," as he calls you even in the LM, and trying to exterminate your order, to suddenly bend the knee and become a meek Grey Warden based on a duel.  If only Cailan had known that that was all he had to do to keep from being betrayed by his father-in-law.

It is also game-breaking illogic, to my mind, that the PC would make this decision based on a few mumbled words of flattery after you've kicked his ass.  Some people in this thread have said that they execute Alistair because he represents some sort of threat based on his Landsmeet outburst, but Loghain has spent the whole game showing himself to be an existential threat to your person and your cause.  The head spins trying to follow this reasoning.

Modifié par Addai67, 10 juin 2010 - 10:01 .

[Addai]

Sixth Goul wrote...

Ha! you can all the facts and dev notes in the world and she still won't believe it.

Believe what?  Precisely what have I denied that is in dev notes?  Please cite specifics.

Modifié par Addai67, 10 juin 2010 - 10:06 .

[Addai]

phaonica wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
Well, for me the conern about Anora is putting myself in her place and how I would take it if my father (IRL or my Warden's father) were killed in front of me and I was splattered with his blood.

I'm asking you to put yourself in the place of Loghain's victims.  Take your pick, if the elves sold into slavery don't move you.  Maybe the children of Redcliffe ultimately affected by his poisoning of Eamon?

What about the Warden's victims? The Warden has plenty of places where s/he can make decisions that can potentially lead to having victims.

What if you leave Redcliffe and seek help from the Circle tower to save Connor and Isolde? How many more people in Redcliffe are going to die because you wouldn't make a hard decision?

What if you preserve the Anvil of the Void? How likely is it that dwarves are going to be put into slavery for the good of Orzammar, or for the good of the Warden's quest against the Blight?
What if you side with Branka? What about justice for the house she murdered?

What if you destroy the Anvil? How many dwarves could have been saved if they'd had access to golems again?

What if you side with Bhelen? How many people is he going to execute to get his way?

You are going to equate any of this to selling people into slavery?

Fine then, submit yourself to the Landsmeet.  Loghain will be happy to take off your head.

[ejoslin]

Yet the senior warden, who knows what has been going on, advocates saving Loghain.



Ending the blight IS the most important thing. I think it's more game breaking that you can't recruit anyone aside from Loghain, but hell, Riordan has also suffered at the hands of Loghain and he, the most senior warden there, advocates making him a warden.



Tell me, if you don't stop the blight, then what difference does it make what Loghain's crimes were? The only elves that are going to be alive are the ones who were sold anyway.

[Giggles_Manically]

Why are we still arguing about this Addai thinks that Alistair is Jesus, and Loghain is the devil, there is really no arguing someone out of that stance.

[nos_astra]

ejoslin wrote...
Yet the senior warden, who knows what has been going on, advocates saving Loghain.

Ending the blight IS the most important thing. I think it's more game breaking that you can't recruit anyone aside from Loghain, but hell, Riordan has also suffered at the hands of Loghain and he, the most senior warden there, advocates making him a warden.

Tell me, if you don't stop the blight, then what difference does it make what Loghain's crimes were? The only elves that are going to be alive are the ones who were sold anyway.

Oh, he advocates saving Loghain but he won't tell you why he does so. Without that little tidbit of information it's hard to see why another Warden could be crucial to ending the Blight.

Riordan also doesn't recruit Loghain (which he could), he simply mentions that recruiting Loghain is an option. So obviously Riordan would appreciate another sword but oviously the matter is not important enough for him to pull rank.

[Addai]

ejoslin wrote...

Yet the senior warden, who knows what has been going on, advocates saving Loghain.

Riordan has not seen most of this with his own eyes, however.  His own torture he is willing to set aside, and that might be credit to his character and makes him a more credible advocate.  He's not very adamant in his appeal, though, either, and expecting Loghain to suddenly take the Blight seriously after his actions throughout the game doesn't make a lot of sense.

[Addai]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Why are we still arguing about this Addai thinks that Alistair is Jesus, and Loghain is the devil, there is really no arguing someone out of that stance.

So that makes Jesus my boyfriend!  Woohoo. 

[phaonica]

Addai67 wrote...


You are going to equate any of this to selling people into slavery?

At the very least, preserving the Anvil of the Void has been used to turn dwarves into golems against their will. I do think that is slavery. Especially if you give it over to Bhelen, the potential is greater that the Anvil will be used this way. 

I think that "think of the victims" has the potential to be a hypocritical stance considering the choices that the Warden is forced to make. Just because the Warden didn't sell anyone into slavery, doesn't mean that they aren't guilty of killing just as many innocent people as Loghain.