965 réponses à ce sujet

[nos_astra]

phaonica wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
You are going to equate any of this to selling people into slavery?

At the very least, preserving the Anvil of the Void has been used to turn dwarves into golems against their will. I do think that is slavery. Especially if you give it over to Bhelen, the potential is greater that the Anvil will be used this way. 

I think that "think of the victims" has the potential to be a hypocritical stance considering the choices that the Warden is forced to make. Just because the Warden didn't sell anyone into slavery, doesn't mean that they aren't guilty of killing just as many innocent people as Loghain.

Being hypocritical is only human. I have no problem playing my Wardens like this.

[Addai]

phaonica wrote...

Addai67 wrote...


You are going to equate any of this to selling people into slavery?

At the very least, preserving the Anvil of the Void has been used to turn dwarves into golems against their will. I do think that is slavery. Especially if you give it over to Bhelen, the potential is greater that the Anvil will be used this way. 

I think that "think of the victims" has the potential to be a hypocritical stance considering the choices that the Warden is forced to make. Just because the Warden didn't sell anyone into slavery, doesn't mean that they aren't guilty of killing just as many innocent people as Loghain.

And someday the Warden may be called to account for various of his or her actions.  At that point, Loghain is being called to account for his, and it really doesn't matter what you may or may not have done.

Some people have said that they spare Loghain because they see their PC in him.  That's all well and good, but if my Warden ends up like Loghain, I'll hope that someone takes her head off, too.

[phaonica]

klarabella wrote...

phaonica wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
You are going to equate any of this to selling people into slavery?

At the very least, preserving the Anvil of the Void has been used to turn dwarves into golems against their will. I do think that is slavery. Especially if you give it over to Bhelen, the potential is greater that the Anvil will be used this way. 

I think that "think of the victims" has the potential to be a hypocritical stance considering the choices that the Warden is forced to make. Just because the Warden didn't sell anyone into slavery, doesn't mean that they aren't guilty of killing just as many innocent people as Loghain.

Being hypocritical is only human. I have no problem playing my Wardens like this.

I'm certainly not saying that you can't or shouldn't play your Warden that way. But it's nice when you as a player recognize that your character is doing it, particularly if you are going to debate about it.

[nos_astra]

phaonica wrote...

klarabella wrote...

phaonica wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
You are going to equate any of this to selling people into slavery?

At the very least, preserving the Anvil of the Void has been used to turn dwarves into golems against their will. I do think that is slavery. Especially if you give it over to Bhelen, the potential is greater that the Anvil will be used this way. 

I think that "think of the victims" has the potential to be a hypocritical stance considering the choices that the Warden is forced to make. Just because the Warden didn't sell anyone into slavery, doesn't mean that they aren't guilty of killing just as many innocent people as Loghain.

Being hypocritical is only human. I have no problem playing my Wardens like this.

I'm certainly not saying that you can't or shouldn't play your Warden that way. But it's nice when you as a player recognize that your character is doing it, particularly if you are going to debate about it.

Oh, I do. Killing Loghain on the spot is a step down the road Loghain went before you. My Wardens would probably not be aware of this at the Landsmeet but I'm sure the idea will occur to them soon. In fact, one of my pet theories especially for the Warden King and Queen is that eventually they'll have to become a little more like Loghain or Anora than they would feel comfortable with. Can you say plot nug? ^^

Modifié par klarabella, 10 juin 2010 - 11:07 .

[TheSixthghoul]

You'll get the message:P  You've been invaded

[Addai]

Sixth Goul wrote...

You'll get the message:P  You've been invaded

Ah, so you can't bother to make an actual point.  Understood.

[Hurbster]

Making Loghain a Warden is a death sentence anyway, so thats what I did. Was sort of expecting Al's reaction, was surprised he was so quick to forswear his oath to Duncan and the Wardens though.

[Giggles_Manically]

Addai67 wrote...

Sixth Goul wrote...

You'll get the message:P  You've been invaded

Ah, so you can't bother to make an actual point.  Understood.

As so you cant help but be a snot, understood.

[old book]

phaonica wrote...

Addai67 wrote...


You are going to equate any of this to selling people into slavery?

At the very least, preserving the Anvil of the Void has been used to turn dwarves into golems against their will. I do think that is slavery. Especially if you give it over to Bhelen, the potential is greater that the Anvil will be used this way. 

I think that "think of the victims" has the potential to be a hypocritical stance considering the choices that the Warden is forced to make. Just because the Warden didn't sell anyone into slavery, doesn't mean that they aren't guilty of killing just as many innocent people as Loghain.

"Potential" is key there. If your Warden took all the Good choices, he didn't kill any innocent people at all, except (arguably) the Werewolves he had to kill in self defense. He risked the deaths of innocents (Mages he spared may have been Blood Mages, Connor might have destroyed Lothering while he was off at the tower), but that's very different from OKing selling civilians into slavery, or the unintended consequences of Loghain's actions.

Note that I write as a player who sees reasons to spare Loghain; Just pointing out that "You're just as bad as he is" will vary greatly according to how the game was played.

[TheSixthghoul]

Addai67 wrote...

Sixth Goul wrote...

You'll get the message:P  You've been invaded

Ah, so you can't bother to make an actual point.  Understood.

I just don't want to get trap in this never ending loop. Regardless, of any point I or anyone else could make (which I could make alot of them) there is no point, you're set in you're ways. Not to be rude, but you come off as fangirl, you don't want to debate Alistair, you just want someone to agree with you. Because the idea of Alistair being anything like Loghain would shatter you perfect image of you're infallible game crush of Alistair(which making him a Marty Stu.) You have good arguments, but they can only be ether loosely interpretated or out manipulated in your favor to stress an equally valid but less likely point. Alistair can be just as bad as Loghain, good example Darkspwawn Chroncles.

[Giggles_Manically]

Darkspawn Chronicles is bad, do not even bring it up, so OOC and AU all over the place. Also Alistair fan girls hate it since AL and Leli got intimate in it.

edit- Is that one of the Brothers from Supernatural?

Modifié par Giggles_Manically, 11 juin 2010 - 01:03 .

[Sarah1281]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Darkspawn Chronicles is bad, do not even bring it up, so OOC and AU all over the place. Also Alistair fan girls hate it since AL and Leli got intimate in it.

edit- Is that one of the Brothers from Supernatural?

Not all of them. You have to remember that this isn't a matter of Alistair liking Leliana better: his would-be LI is dead.

[Giggles_Manically]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Darkspawn Chronicles is bad, do not even bring it up, so OOC and AU all over the place. Also Alistair fan girls hate it since AL and Leli got intimate in it.

edit- Is that one of the Brothers from Supernatural?

Not all of them. You have to remember that this isn't a matter of Alistair liking Leliana better: his would-be LI is dead.

Dosent stop a lot of hate though from his fans.

[Giggles_Manically]

Look at Addai she is the one flaming everyone and everything but Alistair the Divine.

[phaonica]

old book wrote...

"Potential" is key there. If your Warden took all the Good choices, he didn't kill any innocent people at all, except (arguably) the Werewolves he had to kill in self defense. He risked the deaths of innocents (Mages he spared may have been Blood Mages, Connor might have destroyed Lothering while he was off at the tower), but that's very different from OKing selling civilians into slavery, or the unintended consequences of Loghain's actions.

Note that I write as a player who sees reasons to spare Loghain; Just pointing out that "You're just as bad as he is" will vary greatly according to how the game was played.

Yes, Potential is the key word, and I used it on purpose
I do agree that "You're just as bad as he is" is going to vary.
I just wanted anyone who is judging Loghain in that way to reflect on some of the choices that their own Warden made, and whose lives they risked. Even in the Warden's case, the victims probably don't really care what the Warden's reasons were.

[old book]

phaonica wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
Well, for me the conern about Anora is putting myself in her place and how I would take it if my father (IRL or my Warden's father) were killed in front of me and I was splattered with his blood.

I'm asking you to put yourself in the place of Loghain's victims.  Take your pick, if the elves sold into slavery don't move you.  Maybe the children of Redcliffe ultimately affected by his poisoning of Eamon?

What about the Warden's victims? The Warden has plenty of places where s/he can make decisions that can potentially lead to having victims.

What if you leave Redcliffe and seek help from the Circle tower to save Connor and Isolde? How many more people in Redcliffe are going to die because you wouldn't make a hard decision?

What if you preserve the Anvil of the Void? How likely is it that dwarves are going to be put into slavery for the good of Orzammar, or for the good of the Warden's quest against the Blight?
What if you side with Branka? What about justice for the house she murdered?

What if you destroy the Anvil? How many dwarves could have been saved if they'd had access to golems again?

What if you side with Bhelen? How many people is he going to execute to get his way?

"The Warden did bad things too", whether true or not, doesn't free Loghain from responsibility for his own choices. Saying they were the "Hard Choices" doesn't make much difference either; We face the consequences regardless of whether or not we thought our actions were justified.

My Wardens don't always spare Loghain, and don't always kill him. It pretty much comes down to how they view his actions and the situation.

[old book]

phaonica wrote...

old book wrote...

"Potential" is key there. If your Warden took all the Good choices, he didn't kill any innocent people at all, except (arguably) the Werewolves he had to kill in self defense. He risked the deaths of innocents (Mages he spared may have been Blood Mages, Connor might have destroyed Lothering while he was off at the tower), but that's very different from OKing selling civilians into slavery, or the unintended consequences of Loghain's actions.

Note that I write as a player who sees reasons to spare Loghain; Just pointing out that "You're just as bad as he is" will vary greatly according to how the game was played.

Yes, Potential is the key word, and I used it on purpose
I do agree that "You're just as bad as he is" is going to vary.
I just wanted anyone who is judging Loghain in that way to reflect on some of the choices that their own Warden made, and whose lives they risked. Even in the Warden's case, the victims probably don't really care what the Warden's reasons were.

Fully agreed on that. It's one of the things that makes this game so interesting.

[phaonica]

klarabella wrote...

phaonica wrote...

klarabella wrote...

phaonica wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
You are going to equate any of this to selling people into slavery?

At the very least, preserving the Anvil of the Void has been used to turn dwarves into golems against their will. I do think that is slavery. Especially if you give it over to Bhelen, the potential is greater that the Anvil will be used this way. 

I think that "think of the victims" has the potential to be a hypocritical stance considering the choices that the Warden is forced to make. Just because the Warden didn't sell anyone into slavery, doesn't mean that they aren't guilty of killing just as many innocent people as Loghain.

Being hypocritical is only human. I have no problem playing my Wardens like this.

I'm certainly not saying that you can't or shouldn't play your Warden that way. But it's nice when you as a player recognize that your character is doing it, particularly if you are going to debate about it.

Oh, I do. Killing Loghain on the spot is a step down the road Loghain went before you. My Wardens would probably not be aware of this at the Landsmeet but I'm sure the idea will occur to them soon. In fact, one of my pet theories especially for the Warden King and Queen is that eventually they'll have to become a little more like Loghain or Anora than they would feel comfortable with. Can you say plot nug? ^^

I think that's very cool. My favorite part about Awakening was the, admittedly watered-down but nevertheless present, strategy of politics and the responsibility/consequences of your influence as a titled noble. Which probably sounds terribly boring to everyone but me,

[old book]

phaonica wrote...
I think that's very cool. My favorite part about Awakening was the, admittedly watered-down but nevertheless present, strategy of politics and the responsibility/consequences of your influence as a titled noble. Which probably sounds terribly boring to everyone but me,

Nope, that too was pretty awesome.

Plenty of interesting shades of grey in both Origins and Awakening.

[Addai]

Sixth Goul wrote...

I just don't want to get trap in this never ending loop. Regardless, of any point I or anyone else could make (which I could make alot of them) there is no point, you're set in you're ways. Not to be rude, but you come off as fangirl, you don't want to debate Alistair, you just want someone to agree with you. Because the idea of Alistair being anything like Loghain would shatter you perfect image of you're infallible game crush of Alistair(which making him a Marty Stu.) You have good arguments, but they can only be ether loosely interpretated or out manipulated in your favor to stress an equally valid but less likely point. Alistair can be just as bad as Loghain, good example Darkspwawn Chroncles.

That is the example you cite?  LOL.

Debating is what we're doing.  If you don't want to participate, then zip it.  Tossing out meaningless ad hominems and here elaborating on them in a condescending manner adds nothing.  And you are using "fangirl" as an ad hominem, though why it is considered one is a bit of a mystery.  Apparently one cannot actually like a character in order to discuss him... at least if one is a woman.

The thread actually is about Alistair and his motivations, not about Loghain, though inevitably any Alistair thread becomes a Loghain thread and vice versa.

[Xandurpein]

Hurbster wrote...

Making Loghain a Warden is a death sentence anyway, so thats what I did. Was sort of expecting Al's reaction, was surprised he was so quick to forswear his oath to Duncan and the Wardens though.

That is actually one of the key issues where the PC and Alistair can totally fall out with each other, without either one being  wrong or "evil".

It's perfectly reasonable to view becoming a Grey Warden as a punishment befitting a criminal, espescially for a important nobleman like Loghain who is stripped from his power.

It is also perfectly reasonable, if a bit romantic, to view becoming a Grey Warden an immense honor as you become one of the chosen few who are saving the world from the blight.

This is more or less what happened to my character as I see it. I punished Loghain, by making him a Grey Warden and Alistair got angry with me for giving him a medal by making him a Grey Warden. It's just a matter opinion, and neither opinion is wrong or evil.

[Costin_Razvan]

I just don't want to get trap in this never ending loop.

Oh but you already have....you already have. "Grabs Popcorn."

[Xandurpein]

Hanz54321 wrote...

My favorite part of Neverwinter Nights 2 was my Keep/Lands development.  Very involved and puts Awakening's Keep/Lands decisions to shame.

That just goes to show that you can value different things in a game. I have to say that I found being Arl of Amaranthine far more satisfying than being lord of Cross Roads Keep.

There was no keep management worth mentioning in Awakening, but instead you get all these interesting political and judicial choices. The whole "A day in Court" in Awakening was far more satisfying to me than keeping track on Keep economy in NWN2. I'm much more interested in seeing more political decisions than management and economy.

I'm not saying that you are wrong. It's your experience after all. I just wanted to give you a second opinion on the issue.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 11 juin 2010 - 07:56 .