965 réponses à ce sujet

[tmp7704]

Sixth Goul wrote...

The landsmeet seems to work as an overide to depose of a Monarch. True, if you want to look at in terms of support,you could look at it like that for Anora,but how could Alistair gain support?Few people knew of him, its really just word of mouth.

Alistair is presented as the last living son of long line of Ferelden kings. This can gain support from people who, like Eamon, consider maintaining this blood line important factor that keeps Ferelden as single country rather than just bunch of warring banns like it used to be. Or just from traditionalists.

In fact, this particular Landsmeet you attend in the game is called by Eamon in the first place to determine whether Alistair can get enough support from the nobility to sit on the throne. The player has a different motive there, which is to unite the country one way or the other but the "official" reason is Alistair's claim to the throne. And it's apparently seen serious enough for the Landsmeet to actually happen, although it's no doubt in large part due to Eamon putting his authority behind it.

[Herr Uhl]

Sixth Goul wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Yes, you can loose it if you're incompetent. What does that prove?

It proves you can lose without ever making a point or proving said guilt without meta gaming.

And that just proves that your PC is incompetent.

[Xandurpein]

Sixth Goul wrote...

Not in the traditonal sense, It wouldn't work for plot reasons. Maybe not Divine right, but close to it, Its not condititional, but not absolute because of the Landsmeet, I suppose its how you play. The landsmeet seems to work as an overide to depose of a Monarch. True, if you want to look at in terms of support,you could look at it like that for Anora,but how could Alistair gain support?Few people knew of him, its really just word of mouth. The matter of guilt could still  beup for debate, because you can still lose the landsmeet.

The Landsmeet is needed to confirm the new monarch. The Landsmeet never did confirm Loghain as regent. When Loghain made his bid it resulted in civil war instead. so even if there was something like a "Divine right" of kings, Loghain was not protected by it.

[TheSixthghoul]

Xandurpein wrote...
The Landsmeet is needed to confirm the new monarch. The Landsmeet never did confirm Loghain as regent. When Loghain made his bid it resulted in civil war instead. so even if there was something like a "Divine right" of kings, Loghain was not protected by it.

Hm.. I've never considered this, thats a very good point, although they never confirmed or denied him they would have had to have a Landsmeet to do ether. What would the time before the Landsmeet is considered? Are they without rule, or is Loghain de facto king? I cold argue a point of nihilsm, for the point of guilt, but I don't want to come off as a Loghain fan. So next topic?

*edit* You could also state that he "conquered" Feralden and proclaming himself (de facto)king Regent.

Modifié par Sixth Goul, 11 juin 2010 - 03:38 .

[Addai]

Sixth Goul wrote...

I'll just say it, he's protected by the Divine Right of Kings.Otherwise, why else would you need Alistair or Anora? Hence the purpose of the Landsmeet it not about guilt,its about if Alistair is or swerve is the rightful ruler.

I agree with you to an extent.  The Theirins enjoy a bit of mystical pre-eminence because of the legend of Calenhad, which people saw as being confirmed in "Maric the Savior."  It's probably an illusion, though I happen to be one who think greatness can be passed in the blood if only because a heritage can inspire a person.  Even if you see it as only an illusion, it is sometimes a useful one.  Maric believed he was lucky*, which gave him courage at key moments to take risks- some of which panned out and some which didn't.  His star status also inspired a fractured rebellion after Moira's death.

This is not quite the same as divine right of kings, however, since there doesn't seem to be a Chain of Being philosophy in Ferelden.  It's more of a meritocracy.  Even after the Landsmeet decides on a ruler, it is not really that decision but the victory over the Blight that cements the ruler's throne, be that Anora or Alistair.

*Edit:  It's ironic that this is reversed in Alistair.  He's definitely more of a pessimist than his father or brother, believes he's unlucky, and is slow to come around to optimism.

Modifié par Addai67, 11 juin 2010 - 03:56 .

[Maria13]

Addai67 wrote...

Sixth Goul wrote...

I'll just say it, he's protected by the Divine Right of Kings.Otherwise, why else would you need Alistair or Anora? Hence the purpose of the Landsmeet it not about guilt,its about if Alistair is or swerve is the rightful ruler.

I agree with you to an extent.  The Theirins enjoy a bit of mystical pre-eminence because of the legend of Calenhad, which people saw as being confirmed in "Maric the Savior."  It's probably an illusion, though I happen to be one who think greatness can be passed in the blood if only because a heritage can inspire a person.  Even if you see it as only an illusion, it is sometimes a useful one.  Maric believed he was lucky*, which gave him courage at key moments to take risks- some of which panned out and some which didn't.  His star status also inspired a fractured rebellion after Moira's death.

This is not quite the same as divine right of kings, however, since there doesn't seem to be a Chain of Being philosophy in Ferelden.  It's more of a meritocracy.  Even after the Landsmeet decides on a ruler, it is not really that decision but the victory over the Blight that cements the ruler's throne, be that Anora or Alistair.

*Edit:  It's ironic that this is reversed in Alistair.  He's definitely more of a pessimist than his father or brother, believes he's unlucky, and is slow to come around to optimism.

I don't know I think both Maric and Alistair are more akin to manic/depressives, Maric is far from sunshine everyday, there's a lot of stress and brooding there.  Cailan is an unknown quantity.

[Xandurpein]

Sixth Goul wrote...

*edit* You could also state that he "conquered" Feralden and proclaming himself (de facto)king Regent.

If he had won the civil war (he didn't) or won the Landsmeet and executed the PC, then he may have been able to declare himself regent and make it stick. Anyone can declare himself regent/King/Queen, but you need to win to make it stick.

[phaonica]

Hanz54321 wrote...

So you are right - he just declared himself head honcho at a meeting where the nobiity were supposed to declare an actual leader. 

He doesn't want to risk losing a Landsmeet, yet he knows that by usurping power, he's going to lose a lot of support. He thinks that losing some support is better than risking the loss of all support.

I've heard that one reason a lot of players choose Bhelen over Harrowmont is because Harrowmont says he'll go through the legal channels of the Assembly to decide if you get your armies, and the Warden doesn't have time to deal with the Assembly, any more than Loghain has time to deal with the Landsmeet. edit: or maybe it's not the time that's the issue, but the fuss and the risk

I enjoy these discussions.  I can't possibly follow ever post, but I don't think there's any harm in discussing as long as it doesn't turn into a war of "I know you are but what am I?"

Aw, is that not a valid stance? 

Modifié par phaonica, 11 juin 2010 - 10:19 .

[Sarah1281]

phaonica wrote...
I've heard that one reason a lot of players choose Bhelen over Harrowmont is because Harrowmont says he'll go through the legal channels of the Assembly to decide if you get your armies, and the Warden doesn't have time to deal with the Assembly, any more than Loghain has time to deal with the Landsmeet.

 Well, that depends. Go to Orzammar first and he has a year to actually do something. 

[phaonica]

Sarah1281 wrote...

phaonica wrote...
I've heard that one reason a lot of players choose Bhelen over Harrowmont is because Harrowmont says he'll go through the legal channels of the Assembly to decide if you get your armies, and the Warden doesn't have time to deal with the Assembly, any more than Loghain has time to deal with the Landsmeet.

 Well, that depends. Go to Orzammar first and he has a year to actually do something. 

Sorry, I immediately edited my post to say that time was probably not the only factor. Especially since "time" is open to interpretation in this game.

[Costin_Razvan]

So you don't choose Bhelen phanoica, or?



And people choose Bhelen because he is the Dwarven Messiah!



- Kudos to Sarah for the pic.

[Nero280]

I don't blame Alistar for not wanting to marry Anora. She is a power-crazed witch who can't be trusted, Eaman and Loghain both say this. Even Cailan was fed up with her, which is why he was preparing to dump Anora and marry Celene. If Cailan couldn't handle Anora, how could Alistar?



I do blame Alistar for acting so childish when Loghain is spared. As Riordan said, there were only THREE Wardens in Fereldan. It's logical to get as many Wardens as possible to face the Archdemon. Alistar is too blinded by rage to see this, so it's either him or Loghain.

[Sarah1281]

Nero280 wrote...

I don't blame Alistar for not wanting to marry Anora. She is a power-crazed witch who can't be trusted, Eaman and Loghain both say this. Even Cailan was fed up with her, which is why he was preparing to dump Anora and marry Celene. If Cailan couldn't handle Anora, how could Alistar?

...Yeah, that's not what happened. Eamon suggested putting Anora aside because he assumed her lack of children and the fact she was nearing thirty meant that she was barren. Cailan didn't like that idea and they parted in anger a year ago when he last brought it up. The fact Eamon was harping on it again might explain why Cailan didn't want his troops at Ostagar. Celene wrote:

The visit to Ferelden will be postponed indefinitely, due to the darkspawn problem. You understand, of course? The darkspawn have odd timing, don't they? Let us deal with them first. Once that is done we can further discuss a permanent alliance between Orlais and Ferelden. 

Which doesn't really point to a romantic entanglement. If Cailan WERE going to do as you suggest then he's a ****ing moron who would lose his country's hard-won sovereignty for a woman on the throne when he was but five and thus even less likely than Anora to have children. Cailan could be planning on deposing Anora although his reaction to Eamon's suggestion shows that this is unlikely. Please don't take wild speculation born of the fact that the two letters from different people just happened to be in Cailan's 'important things' chest as proof that this is canon.

[Xandurpein]

Nero280 wrote...

I don't blame Alistar for not wanting to marry Anora. She is a power-crazed witch who can't be trusted, Eaman and Loghain both say this. Even Cailan was fed up with her, which is why he was preparing to dump Anora and marry Celene. If Cailan couldn't handle Anora, how could Alistar?

I can understand Alistair not being to happy to be forced to marry a woman he doesn't like, but your description of Anora is... not exactly objective.

You assume that it her fault that Cailan was cheating, a very convenient male excuse. At NO point do either Eamon or Loghain cliam that Anora is a "power-crazed witch who can't be trusted".

It's possible Eamon did feel so, but there is simply NO way you can construe Loghain's words as saying Anora is what you claim, unless you think the fact that Loghain think Anora is a formidable leader is the same as saying Anora is a "power-crazed witch who can't be trusted".

[Herr Uhl]

Xandurpein wrote...

It's possible Eamon did feel so, but there is simply NO way you can construe Loghain's words as saying Anora is what you claim, unless you think the fact that Loghain think Anora is a formidable leader is the same as saying Anora is a "power-crazed witch who can't be trusted".

Well, Loghain does say that she is a drama queen. That could be perceived as not being trustworthy at least.

Though I agree that Anora takes an awful lot of undeserved crap.

[Giggles_Manically]

The whole "Eek ze Warden is kidnapping me" thing kinda made me angry at her. I liked getting the line in prison, When I get out of here I think I am going to strangle Anora.

[Xandurpein]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

It's possible Eamon did feel so, but there is simply NO way you can construe Loghain's words as saying Anora is what you claim, unless you think the fact that Loghain think Anora is a formidable leader is the same as saying Anora is a "power-crazed witch who can't be trusted".

Well, Loghain does say that she is a drama queen. That could be perceived as not being trustworthy at least.

Though I agree that Anora takes an awful lot of undeserved crap.

Loghain says that Anora probably liked being rescued, even if her life strictly wasn't in danger. I fail to see how anyone can equte this to being a "power-crazed witch who can't be trusted". If that is the level of logic that is accepted, I can make a good case why a lot of people, including Alistair himself, would be an utter disaster for Ferelden as King.

Loghain NEVER called Anora a "power-crazed witch who can't be trusted", so don't put words in his mouth. It's just sloppy and bogus. 

[Sarah1281]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

The whole "Eek ze Warden is kidnapping me" thing kinda made me angry at her. I liked getting the line in prison, When I get out of here I think I am going to strangle Anora.

Oh, you mean the line you get in this situation?
Anora: And remember, whatever you do don't tell anyone who I am. It could get me recaptured or even killed.
PC: No problem, Anora.
Cauthrien: You're under arrest for killing Howe!
PC: Man, I'm totally guilty...but don't arrest me! Look, Anora!
Anora:  You stupid-! Help, I'm being kidnapped! 
PC: What? Anora, how dare you not be thrilled I just did the opposite of what you told me to do thus revealing an inability to follow basic instructions I received two minutes ago and/or a complete and utter disregard for your safety as you told me that was why you were in disguise!

I really don't blame her for that...

[Giggles_Manically]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

The whole "Eek ze Warden is kidnapping me" thing kinda made me angry at her. I liked getting the line in prison, When I get out of here I think I am going to strangle Anora.

Oh, you mean the line you get in this situation?
Anora: And remember, whatever you do don't tell anyone who I am. It could get me recaptured or even killed.
PC: No problem, Anora.
Cauthrien: You're under arrest for killing Howe!
PC: Man, I'm totally guilty...but don't arrest me! Look, Anora!
Anora:  You stupid-! Help, I'm being kidnapped! 
PC: What? Anora, how dare you not be thrilled I just did the opposite of what you told me to do thus revealing an inability to follow basic instructions I received two minutes ago and/or a complete and utter disregard for your safety as you told me that was why you were in disguise!

I really don't blame her for that...

I just did that section but my memory may be spotty but all she said was lets get out of here. Oh well I still hate her, especially after Loghain told me what actually happened with Anora and her plots. Man do I feel used after learning that.

[Xandurpein]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

I just did that section but my memory may be spotty but all she said was lets get out of here. Oh well I still hate her, especially after Loghain told me what actually happened with Anora and her plots. Man do I feel used after learning that.

Anora clearly tells you that she does not want you to give away her under any circumstance.

[Addai]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I really don't blame her for that...

Of course, she's lying to you and she knows it.  When it comes down to it, facing Cauthrien and a room full of soldiers, even expecting you to put your own life on the line for her supposed suspicion that her father would kill her is asking a lot.  She is the queen and Loghain only her regent.  You are nameless outlaws.  Her chances in that situation are a lot better than yours.

Modifié par Addai67, 12 juin 2010 - 06:10 .