965 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
But if I did, I would expect him to watch my back and not abandon me like this. 

Oh, is that what you would expect of a friend and comrade??

Funnily enough, so does Alistair.

Yes because disagreeing with his opinion is EXACTLY like leaving him to fight a war with overwheliming odds stacked against him on his own. Not to mention the country beign at stake.

See, it's because you completely minimize and trivialize the other side of the issue- as a simple clash of opinions, a minor difference over strategy- that you can't even understand, let alone sympathize, with what Alistair does.

Not in the slightest. But ok, I'll rephrase.

"Yes because standing against everything Alsitair believes in (which ironically is supposed to make him stay and fight I might add) is EXACTLY like leaving him to fight a war with overwhelming odds stacked against him on his own. Not to mention the country being at stake".

[Herr Uhl]

BigBad wrote...

Um, deserting the Wardens isn't even a crime. It's not like he's a soldier of the king's army. Riordan says outright that it doesn't matter if a Warden deserts because they'll all end up the same place, so it's probably safe to say that the Wardens definitely don't adhere to standard military protocol.

Considering the secrecy regarding the joining, I think that they do.

[Costin_Razvan]

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

In my Canon playthrough, Alistair is executed, because of his declared intent to desert (that's the only reason Arcturus allowed the execution to take place, otherwise he would have stood against it). 
 

You do realize how hypocritical this is, considering how you treat Loghain in comparison?

Right....Loghain who retreats because he thought the battle was unwinnable, who thought that Orlais still continued to pose a grave threat to Fereldan, who thought Grey Wardens were not needed to defeat the Blight

Now...no offence, but Alistair tantrum because of personal issues, and his desertion for EXACTLY that IS bloody trivial. At least Loghain is trying to do what he think is best for Fereldan, and not himself.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

In my Canon playthrough, Alistair is executed, because of his declared intent to desert (that's the only reason Arcturus allowed the execution to take place, otherwise he would have stood against it). 
 

You do realize how hypocritical this is, considering how you treat Loghain in comparison?

Nope, as I agree with Loghain's decision at Ostagar and that it was founded on military and political calculations, which proved to be somewhat inaccurate. Alsitair's desertion on the otherhand has no such calculations and there is nothing to agree with.
And again, Loghain did not abandon his people and country.

But please, we already had that discussion hundreds of times and you already know my position as I already explained it.

[Sarah1281]

BigBad wrote...

Um, deserting the Wardens isn't even a crime. It's not like he's a soldier of the king's army. Riordan says outright that it doesn't matter if a Warden deserts because they'll all end up the same place, so it's probably safe to say that the Wardens definitely don't adhere to standard military protocol.

It sure got Jory killed.

[phaonica]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...


In my Canon playthrough, Alistair is executed, because of his declared intent to desert (that's the only reason Arcturus allowed the execution to take place, otherwise he would have stood against it). 
 

I would not have executed him for desertion, not while I held out hope that he would come back. But if he had further challenged my authority granted to me by the Landsmeet, and made me look weak before them at a time when I needed to show strength, I might have executed him for that.

[Avilia]

Sorry if this is slightly OT but something has been niggling at me for a while.



Is it even possible to be king (or anything else for that matter) and be a grey warden? Isn't being a grey warden about giving up everything?



Apologies again but you seem like a bunch that might know the answer

[Costin_Razvan]

My Cannon PC, as in my DN, let him go. If he is going to pose a further threat to Fereldan then Anora can deal with him.



On my HN, I executed him. I don't want to have a headache further along the line of my rule because of him.

[phaonica]

Avilia wrote...

Sorry if this is slightly OT but something has been niggling at me for a while.

Is it even possible to be king (or anything else for that matter) and be a grey warden? Isn't being a grey warden about giving up everything?

Apologies again but you seem like a bunch that might know the answer

They gave Amaranthine to the Wardens, which is granting them titles. So King/Queen could be the technical precedent for that.

[Herr Uhl]

Avilia wrote...

Sorry if this is slightly OT but something has been niggling at me for a while.

Is it even possible to be king (or anything else for that matter) and be a grey warden? Isn't being a grey warden about giving up everything?

Apologies again but you seem like a bunch that might know the answer

It shouldn't be possible according to the set rules, but rules can change.

[BigBad]

Herr Uhl wrote...

BigBad wrote...

Um, deserting the Wardens isn't even a crime. It's not like he's a soldier of the king's army. Riordan says outright that it doesn't matter if a Warden deserts because they'll all end up the same place, so it's probably safe to say that the Wardens definitely don't adhere to standard military protocol.

Considering the secrecy regarding the joining, I think that they do.

They enforce it up to the Joining, but after that, you're a Warden. Whether you stick around to take orders or you hare off on your own, you're still going to be fighting darkspawn and end up in the Deep Roads because of what you are. The way it appears to work in game, at least in the opinion of the senior Wardens we see, Wardens have a lot of personal freedom after the Joining, and becoming part of the organization or not is mostly a matter of personal choice. Even if you run away and hide, they're not gonna go look for you to punish you because you'll end up fighting darkspawn anyway, simply based on what you are.  The secrecy and strictness prior to the Joining is simply to ensure that new Wardens exist. What they do after that doesn't matter a lot in the long run because you can't just stop being a Warden.

[Demx]

BigBad wrote...

Um, deserting the Wardens isn't even a crime. It's not like he's a soldier of the king's army. Riordan says outright that it doesn't matter if a Warden deserts because they'll all end up the same place, so it's probably safe to say that the Wardens definitely don't adhere to standard military protocol.

This is the same Organization that kills you if you refuse to do the Joining. Do you really think that they would let a deserter leave that easily? They would try to kill you the moment they have a chance.

[KnightofPhoenix]

@ BigBad. And what if that Warden that they let leave decides to tell everyone about the joining? What then? Wouldn't that compromise their secrecy? It potentially does. Thus yes, that deeserter can be killed for the same charge.

[Sarah1281]

Avilia wrote...

Sorry if this is slightly OT but something has been niggling at me for a while.

Is it even possible to be king (or anything else for that matter) and be a grey warden? Isn't being a grey warden about giving up everything?

Apologies again but you seem like a bunch that might know the answer

I think it's just an order policy that no one outside the GW enforces. Say you were the HN and wanted to be a GW and Howe didn't kill everyone. In order for you to be allowed to become one you would have to tell them that you'd leave your potential title behind. Of course, once you're a GW for awhile and then step down from active duty then there really wouldn't be any reason for you NOT to be able to take whatever title you were eligible for.

[Herr Uhl]

Hanz54321 wrote...

It's possible, but seen as a) opprotunistic in that it gives Wardens (a band of essentially unpaid mercenaries with only one agenda) power over the military and a bad idea because tainted babies make poor heirs to the trone.

Babies aren't tainted if one parent is a GW.

[BigBad]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@ BigBad. And what if that Warden that they let leave decides to tell everyone about the joining? What then? Wouldn't that compromise their secrecy? It potentially does. Thus yes, that deeserter can be killed for the same charge.

I dunno. Playing Awakening, it seemed to me that everyone and their dog knew about the Joining and the risks, and Anora announced it loudly at the Landsmeet. Secrecy only seems to be a concern as long as it's narratively convenient.

[asaiasai]

Looking at it from a big picture perspective, Loghain's only crime is being on the other side of the argument. He is an adversary who believes he is doing what is best for Feraldin, and like everyone else has no understanding of the wardens role in ending a blight, hell even Allistair does not know. It is a role that you a warden do not get explained to you until almost the end of the game. I think had he known why the wardens were necessary, the choices he made would be different. As Flemeth said "perhaps he thinks this is an army he can outmanouver", this whole situation is because of the secretive nature of the wardens themselves. Who would join the order if they knew the joining was possibly fatal? Who would join if they knew about the shortened life spans? Who would join if they knew that every normal soldier on the battlefield has a chance to survive but a warden does not have the same chance. All of those reasons are necessary to be kept secret for all of the answers are the same, no one.



It seems a bit trite to sum up the whole situation as no one has all the facts, a simple mis comunication, but there it is none the less. After you defeat Loghain at the landsmeet all of his choices have been removed he has no options he can excercise, Allistair on the other hand still has choices, and he chose poorly. Allistair has silly little romantic notions of what the wardens are, and indeed some folks work thier asses off to impress a warden to get to be recruited, but for the most part the wardens are people who have skills but few options, such as join and possibly die in a few day or pass and definatly swing tomorrow. It is an offer very few will refuse, which means that for the most part the wardens are sinners, who by taking up the fight against the DS have a chance to earn sainthood. The mantra the game drills into your head is that the wardens will take help where ever you can find it. It is the prime reason you are saddled with Morrigan in the first place, and do not think the irony is lost on me with that.



In the end it is not about what anyone wants, needs or desires, it is about duty, honor and stopping the blight, period. Talent, the will, and lack of alternatives primarily describe the wardens, oh and they kill DS better than anyone else.



Asai

[Herr Uhl]

BigBad wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@ BigBad. And what if that Warden that they let leave decides to tell everyone about the joining? What then? Wouldn't that compromise their secrecy? It potentially does. Thus yes, that deeserter can be killed for the same charge.

I dunno. Playing Awakening, it seemed to me that everyone and their dog knew about the Joining and the risks, and Anora announced it loudly at the Landsmeet. Secrecy only seems to be a concern as long as it's narratively convenient.

Anora knew about it being dangerous, not what it entailed IIRC. But it gets so mundane in Awakenings.

[Avilia]

Thanks everyone for you answers



I suppose I was coming from a place of viewing the Grey Wardens as more than a military outfit you can leave.



Perhaps I'm wrong about that - it just seemed that once you'd survived the joining you're in for life. That there was no leaving.



Oh well - there goes some of my RP options ;-)

[Demx]

BigBad wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@ BigBad. And what if that Warden that they let leave decides to tell everyone about the joining? What then? Wouldn't that compromise their secrecy? It potentially does. Thus yes, that deeserter can be killed for the same charge.

I dunno. Playing Awakening, it seemed to me that everyone and their dog knew about the Joining and the risks, and Anora announced it loudly at the Landsmeet. Secrecy only seems to be a concern as long as it's narratively convenient.

Awakening brought many flaws to the lore of the original game.

Modifié par Siradix, 06 juin 2010 - 08:26 .

[Herr Uhl]

Hanz54321 wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Babies aren't tainted if one parent is a GW.

Then how does the Dark Ritual work again?  I thought it was the taint in the child that draws the Tevinter Dragon sould into the fetus.

Magic *handwaves*

Yes, that is all the explanation we have.

[Costin_Razvan]

Then how does the Dark Ritual work again? I thought it was the taint in the child that draws the Tevinter Dragon sould into the fetus.

I don't think the Dark Ritual just plays like a normal conception of a child. Certainly there is more to it then that.

I suppose I was coming from a place of viewing the Grey Wardens as more than a military outfit you can leave.

I don't think you are wrong in believing that, it makes little sense for the Grey Wardens to allow someone to leave.

Riordan does not pull rank on you if allow you to let Alistair leave....because well as DG said ( You are doing well enough on your own )

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 06 juin 2010 - 08:29 .