965 réponses à ce sujet

[Demx]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Hanz54321 wrote...

It's possible, but seen as a) opprotunistic in that it gives Wardens (a band of essentially unpaid mercenaries with only one agenda) power over the military and a bad idea because tainted babies make poor heirs to the trone.

Babies aren't tainted if one parent is a GW.

Correct having a baby with a GW is just harder, because of the low birth rate.

[KnightofPhoenix]

BigBad wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@ BigBad. And what if that Warden that they let leave decides to tell everyone about the joining? What then? Wouldn't that compromise their secrecy? It potentially does. Thus yes, that deeserter can be killed for the same charge.

I dunno. Playing Awakening, it seemed to me that everyone and their dog knew about the Joining and the risks, and Anora announced it loudly at the Landsmeet. Secrecy only seems to be a concern as long as it's narratively convenient.

Awakening reeks of idiocy in that regard. As for Anora, she just says she knows its fatal, that doesn't mean she knows what it involves (what can essentially be described as blood magic. Imagine the outrage). No one is supposed to know the details of the Joining.

Because if Jory was killed in order not to reveal the secrets, I can see a Warden executing Alsitair for the same reason. Alistair being a warden or not is irrelevent, as he can still reveal Warden secrets. Even better than an non-Warden actually (and considering how Alsitair becomes a drunk, it wouldn't surprise me if he said things he should not have).

[nos_astra]

BigBad wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
@ BigBad. And what if that Warden that they let leave decides to tell everyone about the joining? What then? Wouldn't that compromise their secrecy? It potentially does. Thus yes, that deeserter can be killed for the same charge.

I dunno. Playing Awakening, it seemed to me that everyone and their dog knew about the Joining and the risks, and Anora announced it loudly at the Landsmeet. Secrecy only seems to be a concern as long as it's narratively convenient.

Exactly. It's the same with the supposed oath you never actively swear. In Awakening you can tell Anders the same thing. You don't need to be a part of the order, you can leave but you can't stop being a Warden.

I believe Fiona says something similar when talking to Maric about their son. She could leave the order. Her reason not to is because she's an elf and a mage and doesn't see much of a future for herself outside of the order,

I'm not sure but isn't only Alistair talking about duty?

Modifié par klarabella, 06 juin 2010 - 08:30 .

[Sarah1281]

Hanz54321 wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Hanz54321 wrote...

It's possible, but seen as a) opprotunistic in that it gives Wardens (a band of essentially unpaid mercenaries with only one agenda) power over the military and a bad idea because tainted babies make poor heirs to the trone.

Babies aren't tainted if one parent is a GW.

Then how does the Dark Ritual work again?  I thought it was the taint in the child that draws the Tevinter Dragon sould into the fetus.

Well that was why she couldn't just get pregnant by normal means for the ritual to work like she does whenever she sleeps with the Warden. Instead, you need the ritual so it is a tainted embryo.

[Sarah1281]

I don't think you are wrong in believing that, it makes little sense for the Grey Wardens to allow someone to leave.



Riordan does not pull rank on you if allow you to let Alistair leave....because well as DG said ( You are doing well enough on your own )

The King of Ferelden or Hero of Ferelden, however, can do whatever the hell they want to.

[nos_astra]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Hanz54321 wrote...
Then how does the Dark Ritual work again?  I thought it was the taint in the child that draws the Tevinter Dragon sould into the fetus.

Well that was why she couldn't just get pregnant by normal means for the ritual to work like she does whenever she sleeps with the Warden. Instead, you need the ritual so it is a tainted embryo.

And to ensure conception, I think.

[phaonica]

asaiasai wrote...

It seems a bit trite to sum up the whole situation as no one has all the facts, a simple mis comunication, but there it is none the less.

I agree. During the Landsmeet, my character began to see that if Loghain really was sincere about saving Ferelden, then our goals were the same, and that with a little more time, we might be able to be very effective allies.

[KnightofPhoenix]

klarabella wrote...
I'm not sure but isn't only Alistair talking about duty?

Which makes him hypocritical, yes.

[KnightofPhoenix]

I've been trying to find an explanation as to why Senecahl Varel knows everythign about it. Either he spied on the Orlesian Wardens and knew everything, further proving how the Orlesians are an incompetent bunch of morons who like to make life miserable for everyone. Or they actually taught Varel all this, which also makes them morons.

I guess a small, if unsatisfactory, explanation could be that since the Wardens actively ruling an arling is unprecedented (easy way I know), then they maybe thought that informing the Senechal (right hand man) would be a wise course of action as he will be assisting the Warden Commander in all matters.

[Gilsa]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I've been trying to find an explanation as to why Senecahl Varel knows everythign about it. Either he spied on the Orlesian Wardens and knew everything, further proving how the Orlesians are an incompetent bunch of morons who like to make life miserable for everyone. Or they actually taught Varel all this, which also makes them morons.
I guess a small, if unsatisfactory, explanation could be that since the Wardens actively ruling an arling is unprecedented (easy way I know), then they maybe thought that informing the Senechal (right hand man) would be a wise course of action as he will be assisting the Warden Commander in all matters.

He was taught this in thanks for his loyal service. I believe this was a codex entry. I will see if I can find this.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Hanz54321 wrote...

kk - now really off topic:

Has it occured to anyone that if the Wardens hadn't kept their secrets from the King and his higher ranked staff members, none of this would've happened? If Loghain knew at Ostagar that only a Warden can kill an Archdemon, he obviously would not have let them all die. Especially if Cailan, Loghain, and a few others knew that "sensing an Archdemon" meant "Yes there is absolutely an arch demon even if we haven't seen it yet. This is a blight."

So the civil war is the Warden's fault! Yeah . . . that's the ticket!

Indeed, I've argued this a long time ago and LadyDamodred and I came into an agreement over this.

I would't say it's the Warden's fault. But it's a tragic details that enables everything to spiral out of control, yes. Loghain acted with ignorance, but it's an ignorance he could not be responsble for, as it's supposed to be a secret.

Hmmm, perhaps that reasoning factored in Awakening?

[Swoo]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I've been trying to find an explanation as to why Senecahl Varel knows everythign about it. Either he spied on the Orlesian Wardens and knew everything, further proving how the Orlesians are an incompetent bunch of morons who like to make life miserable for everyone. Or they actually taught Varel all this, which also makes them morons.
I guess a small, if unsatisfactory, explanation could be that since the Wardens actively ruling an arling is unprecedented (easy way I know), then they maybe thought that informing the Senechal (right hand man) would be a wise course of action as he will be assisting the Warden Commander in all matters.

Varel was actually a friend of the Grey Wardens and their supporters during the timeframe of Origins, basically running interference against his Lord Rendon Howe to outright protection and smuggling out of danger. He mentions being demoted repeatedly for taking these stances (which I found as shoddy writing because Howe seemed the type to torture and kill your entire family because the eggs were cold, much less treason)

So he probably was privy to secrets non-Warden's normally never would have been allowed to know, and he mentions his respect for the Wardens quite a bit, and in the end based on your choices is even willing to die for you when his history was already shown that he's not a 'loyal unto death no matter how you rule' type.

[Gilsa]

Huh, I thought it was more detailed than this, but I was wrong.

[Demx]

I would have to say, that Loghian would have still performed the same actions. He was dead set of securing Ferelden the way he saw fit, that he would be willing to sacrifice all the remaining wardens in the country. He could always send word to the Orlesians to send GWs to fight the archdemon, after the civil war was over.

[Swoo]

Ah ok, he was going to be executed. Makes a bit more sense then.



That's what I get for going off memory from one playthrough of Awakenings

[KnightofPhoenix]

I see. Well I guess it's an adequate explanation. If a bit....meeeh.

Then again, after Duncan, everything Warden related is meeeh.

Thanks Gilsa And Swoo!

[KnightofPhoenix]

Siradix wrote...

I would have to say, that Loghian would have still performed the same actions. He was dead set of securing Ferelden the way he saw fit, that he would be willing to sacrifice all the remaining wardens in the country. He could always send word to the Orlesians to send GWs to fight the archdemon, after the civil war was over.

I think he would have allowed the Wardens to come in, but not with the Orlesian legions. And he would have kept his eyes on them and not blindly trust them.  

[BigBad]

I liked Varel, but I didn't like him doing the Joining. I didn't like how Awakening turned the Joining from a secret ceremony with real dangers and life-altering consequences to "Hey, if you wanna join up, you might die (but not really, because that quota was filled), but if that's cool, then drink this and let's head back out!"



I use Awakening lore in my arguments because, well, it's canon, but I don't like it, and I've never replayed it, nor do I plan to.

[Vicious]

See that guy looks capable, like he's been raised to kill mages, and not some too modern douchebag.

Basically. Alistair shows some spine like three times in the whole game, and 2 involve him being completely insubordinate to the player.

1) The landsmeet when he doesn't get his way.
2) If you threatened the Revered Mother in Lothering, he jumps in and acts like HE is suddenly the leader. It was a big WTF moment for me, the guy tells me, "OK I can't lead buddy you take over." And then he goes right over my head when I act?
3) If you're romancing him and he performs the ultimate sacrifice.


I honestly think that's it.


As for Varel performing the Joining... I honestly think it's simply because the PC has no voice and they felt the scene would lose some weight if you just pressed "1" or "A" over and over again.

Modifié par Vicious, 06 juin 2010 - 09:02 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Then you don't know Loghain Hanz.

I would have to say, that Loghian would have still performed the same actions. He was dead set of securing Ferelden the way he saw fit, that he would be willing to sacrifice all the remaining wardens in the country. He could always send word to the Orlesians to send GWs to fight the archdemon, after the civil war was over.

Now this creates a very interesting scenario, for a fanfiction at least.

[M-Taylor]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

BigBad wrote...
Two soldiers and comrades-in-sarms. One walks up to the other and says, "Hey, you remember that guy that killed your last squad, nearly doomed the country, and is kind of a dick? Yeah, I think he should be our new point man because he has a really cool rep from the last war."  The second guy is supposed to embrace this decision and remain with his buddy while being forced to work with the guy he considers a devil in human form?

No, he is supposed to either enlist with another unit, or go for another commander.
Not desert, because he supposedely feels that his buddy is good enough with or without him.

Are you choosing to ignore that the Grey Wardens are more than a unit? They're akin. They share the same blood practically. Alistair even says he considers the Grey Wardens as family more then once. Accepting the guy who murdered your second family is not something you want to do. And he *can't* just go to another unit. There's only 3 Grey Wardens in Fereleden, and Rhiodian makes them work together in meetings and such.

I normally actually recruit Loghain, 'cause I think he's more interesting then Alistair. But, I can completely understand where Alistair is coming from, and not to be rude, but I think you're being incredibly arrogant to not even try and see the argument.